Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #6 *both parents arrested/charged*

[rosesfromangels]

Agree with the validity of homeschooling. However, homeschool families that I know say that minimal oversight to protect children could be done without major intrusion.

Adopted, "homeschooled," missing/presumed deceased:

Adam Herrman:

KS - KS - Adam Herrman, 11, Towanda, 1999

just one example, unfortunately we could generate a long list.

jmho ymmv lrr

I’ve seen homeschooling work when parents work with the local school system to allow the kids to attend PE, band, and elective classes. Seems to work well.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MoeInVA]

I would like to respectfully say as a homeschooling parent of 6 children, homeschooling is not a red flag for abuse.

I agree homeschooling alone is not a red flag. I know plenty of moms who are lovely and home school. However it is a common step taken by the extreme abusers and is one among the constellation of signs along with retreat from society, not allowing family to see the home, hinky excuses to not see children, poor hygiene, covering up the body with long sleeves/ pants in very high heat, injuries/bruises etc

 

[Frodosdojo]

There is an article on the Investigation Discovery Website recently. Not sure if it's allowed but here's the link:

https://www.investigationdiscovery....-and-orson-west-still-missing-from-california

This statement jumped out at me:

A spokesperson for CPS told KGET in March that there will also be a court case to determine “whether or not [Orrin and Orson] can or should be returned to their adoptive parents.”

My mouth fell open when I read that. That seems to be a pretty strong stance to take by CPS.

This has huge ramifications for parents rights. I don't believe that the State should be able to remove children from a household for an indefinite period of time.

Either declare that the Wests are suspects, and start the process, or let them be with their children. The State can't continue to keep the children away from the parents without cause.

And as much as I don't like the situation, in this instance, I would side with the Wests. They have not been identified as "suspects" or even "POI", yet their children have been removed from their home, going on 2-3 months?

Well, they could charge them with neglect or abuse of the biological children. If there is evidence of mistreatment.

But, at some point in time, either charge the Wests with a crime, or let them have their children back.

There must have been evidence of neglect or abuse for them not to get their kids back. IMO.

I believe that law enforcement and family know this is a recovery mission and that broad publicity is unlikely to help.

Circulating these old photos of the boys is unlikely to help. AND updating / age progressing photos of the boys is unlikely to help.

Otherwise they would have done these things.

in some cases national publicity just hurts the investigation as investigators must spend tine chasing down each tip. Instead of investigating the actual leads. We saw this in missing cases before where LE told families to stop seeking tips shortly before an arrest.

Based on LE actions and the fact that none of the adopted extended family ever shared a missing poster, I think it’s a good bet that national media won’t help find the boys. JMO

I disagree that the photos or news coverage won't help. Maybe it will trigger someone's memory of seeing the boys. Maybe it will inspire remorse or a confession. And with Court Tv and America's Most Wanted covering the case, it looks like the very least national media can do is get this case more attention. I just believe that can only be a good thing.

I am a foster adoptive parent and I know hundreds of others (I'm very connected to the foster adoption community) and I know exactly ZERO parents who have kicked their kids out at 18 years old. I know parents who have had to put their children in short term therapeutic care for trauma and parents whose 18 year olds have struggled with adulthood, but not one single foster/adoptive parent in my circle has ever kicked their child to the curb....which translated means, saying that a foster/adoptive parents are ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY is really hateful. Most fost adopt parents parent harder and more than any regular family ever will because EVERY SINGLE FOSTER CHILD...every single one has experienced some sort of trauma. That can manifest as fire starting, violence, sexually acting out, withdrawal, tantrums, suicidal ideation, homicidal ideation, and the list goes on and is long. Some kids are great and have no long lasting issues, some struggle their whole lives....but to say that fost adopt parents just kick their kids out when the paycheck stops, that just isn't true or fair because for MOST fost adopt families, the truth is they end up paying thousands of dollars for extended treatment and support for children who can never be mainstreamed into society...those are the real facts. Yes, there might be some who kick their kids out and frankly, those are the parents who should have never adopted foster kids in the first place because they didn't have the parenting chops for the job. People think that foster/adoption will be easy and they'll get a cute little baby and ride off into the sunset when in truth there is no such child. They all have trauma to overcome....every single one. Some handle it better than others, some are more drug-exposed, more traumatized, more mentally ill and they have it harder...you just never know. But until you've walked in their shoes...you don't know, but I will say MOST foster/adoptive parents not only stay with their children past the age of 18, but have to parent adult children for the rest of their lives.

I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded. I wish more people understood this. "Love" and a "good home" doesn't fix trauma. I was actually kicked out shortly after I turned 18 by my adoptive parents. I had been accepted to a very prestigious college and they wrote a letter to the school letting them know they would not be financially responsible for me. I had two half-sisters who were adopted separately and reading their family newsletter that included a letter stating they thought their love and money would fix them but my sisters struggled with developing positive relationships. Their viewpoint was really skewed.

Hope they come down on this particular you tuber, he has been a problem since Dec. 21st.

Bakersfield woman says she is being harassed by Youtubers covering missing boys case
EXCLUSIVE: A Bakersfield woman says she is being harassed by YouTubers covering the disappearance of 3-year-old Orson and 4-year-old Orrin West. Cherri Vasquez says there have been multiple videos about her on Youtube recently, falsely raising suspicion that she is the mother of Jacqueline West, who many of these YouTubers believe is involved in the disappearance of the boys. Authorities have not named anyone as a suspect in the case.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=801333763808168

They should be arrested!

amateur opinion and speculation

I actually watched the video of when the youtubers went to this lady's house. I can post it or link it if allowed. She was never threatened or harassed. She invited them into her home during covid, which made no sense to me. When they left she told them they could come back anytime. So they should be arrested for what ?

As it stands now, these parents could still be eligible to foster and adopt more children.

They have not been charged with any crimes.

Terrible tragedy that two siblings in their care disappeared.

In light of that article from Investigation Discovery, it sounds like CPS is taking action on that issue regarding all the children that were under their care.

Thanks for posting this video link, @Knox !

My key takeaways:

1. Multiple people detained for questioning after refusing to cooperate over the course of this investigation.
   (Sgt Pair disclosed this for the first time last night right before air time to the tenacious Bayan Wang. This was over the course of the investigation so it has not been stated if anyone is CURRENTLY detained.)
2. Bayan Wang had a 30 minute in-person conversation with TW and JW in March. (Mostly off record, they declined to give even a written statement to dispel rumors and their justification was that even a written statement every word would be analyzed. They *apparently* told Bayan they have searched on their own and have their own suspicions about who might be involved.)
3. Bayan mentioned Websleuths! He sort of lumped us in with the YouTubers (We are better than that, B!), but I think it was fair in the context of a lot of folks questioning and being suspicious of TW and JW and offering them a chance to respond. (Just to be clear, Bayan, we at Websleuths do not attack and nor do we traffic in rumors. We are all about analyzing facts, interviews, and evidence. )
   JMO- I sure hope TW and JW will take Bayan up on his offer to make a statement. They are right it will be analyzed, but more importantly it will make news, and every news story is an opportunity to get the boys’ faces out there for potential tips. If they really care about finding the boys, they should have been making regular statements all along - the kids come first. Their justification provided to Bayan is not a good one. Ignore the critics. Put the kids ahead of your pride and egos for goodness sake!

Maybe he was referring to WS' youtube channel ? That channel does not have the same strict guidelines as the forum. I watched a couple of videos on the boys and there was a guest who reported a couple of rumors, IMO.

 

[Algo214]

There is an article on the Investigation Discovery Website recently. Not sure if it's allowed but here's the link:

https://www.investigationdiscovery....-and-orson-west-still-missing-from-california

This statement jumped out at me:

A spokesperson for CPS told KGET in March that there will also be a court case to determine “whether or not [Orrin and Orson] can or should be returned to their adoptive parents.”

Sniped for focus.

So, how could there be a case for them to be returned if...there is no boys to be returned? do they know for a fact they are alive that they are making such statements?
I'm confused

 

[Laughing]

Sniped for focus.

So, how could there be a case for them to be returned if...there is no boys to be returned? do they know for a fact they are alive that they are making such statements?
I'm confused

Might have to do with any adoption subsidy payments?

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Frodosdojo]

Sniped for focus.

So, how could there be a case for them to be returned if...there is no boys to be returned? do they know for a fact they are alive that they are making such statements?
I'm confused

I am going to take a wild guess and say they are not assuming the boys are permanently gone. Maybe they are taking this action because CPS feels they should not have custody of any kids, ever, period ?

 

[Algo214]

I am going to take a wild guess and say they are not assuming the boys are permanently gone. Maybe they are taking this action because CPS feels they should not have custody of any kids, ever, period ?

which I would absolutely back up, if they are not permanently gone, they can't go back there, ever. Neither can the other 4.
Forget foul play, abuse or anything but even going by their official story, there is clear neglect to care...moo

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

which I would absolutely back up, if they are not permanently gone, they can't go back there, ever. Neither can the other 4.
Forget foul play, abuse or anything but even going by their official story, there is clear neglect to care...moo

Interesting CPS is loath to take kids from homes,even abusive ones. They give parents so many chances. So there must be something really wack going on. I don't recall any missing child/children case where the remaining children were removed from the parents. MOO

 

[seib_seib]

Just getting familiar with this case right now...my gosh no interview with parents has ever made me so uncomfortable. The body language, the swaying, the nodding, the hands under the arms - reminded me of a little kid who just got caught/is "in trouble." This is so worrying. IMO.

 

[Dre]

Just getting familiar with this case right now...my gosh no interview with parents has ever made me so uncomfortable. The body language, the swaying, the nodding, the hands under the arms - reminded me of a little kid who just got caught/is "in trouble." This is so worrying. IMO.

absolutely, I had such a reaction to that video, too. interesting that not everyone does.. I felt their guilt so deeply in every passing second of their comportment and energy.

also! warm greetings! Welcome to websleuthes, we are glad you're here and look forward to seeing you around

 

[seib_seib]

also! warm greetings! Welcome to websleuthes, we are glad you're here and look forward to seeing you around

Thanks so much! I'm definitely getting hooked on different forums & threads and have so many things to say about so many cases I've been interested in for the last 10+ years hah - I'm sure everyone will see me around!

 

[MoeInVA]

Interesting CPS is loath to take kids from homes,even abusive ones. They give parents so many chances. So there must be something really wack going on. I don't recall any missing child/children case where the remaining children were removed from the parents. MOO

When children reported missing turn up dead, they are more likely to take away the other children these days. Which makes sense. Evolving policies I think, but unfortunately it often takes a death.
Kids Who Lived With Roman Lopez Find Solace With Michigan Family
CA - Roman Anthony Lopez, 11, found deceased, poisoned , Placerville, 11 Jan 2020 *arrests*

Parents of ETX boy found dead in septic tank sentenced on other charges
CPS takes remaining children in to state custody

SC - Victoria Rose Smith, 3, dies, parents arrested, “Worst Cooks in America” winners, Jan 2021

Seminole child protection officials missed chances before abused 5-year-old’s death, state probe says
Also this:
Children in foster care 42% more likely to die than children in general population

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

When children reported missing turn up dead, they are more likely to take away the other children these days. Which makes sense. Evolving policies I think, but unfortunately it often takes a death.
Kids Who Lived With Roman Lopez Find Solace With Michigan Family
CA - Roman Anthony Lopez, 11, found deceased, poisoned , Placerville, 11 Jan 2020 *arrests*

Parents of ETX boy found dead in septic tank sentenced on other charges
CPS takes remaining children in to state custody

SC - Victoria Rose Smith, 3, dies, parents arrested, “Worst Cooks in America” winners, Jan 2021

Seminole child protection officials missed chances before abused 5-year-old’s death, state probe says
Also this:
Children in foster care 42% more likely to die than children in general population

Hmmm. Orrin,and Orson haven't been found dead. There must be something really big though for the remaining children to still be in protective custody. One would think the parental units would do everything they can to fight for their children, and do what is necessary to get them back. Find their missing little ones too. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

A spokesperson for CPS told KGET in March that there will also be a court case to determine “whether or not [Orrin and Orson] can or should be returned to their adoptive parents.”

My mouth fell open when I read that. That seems to be a pretty strong stance to take by CPS.

^^rsbm

I believe the entire article -- taken in whole, explains the statement above.

All of the children of the parents (both bio and adopted) are currently in the custody of state services-- pending the ongoing investigation of the missing siblings that allegedly vanished from the family backyard.

It follows that Orin and Orson would not be treated differently i.e., taken first into custody if located -while the investigation concludes how two minor children vanished while right under the noses of their parents.

MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Hmmm. Orrin,and Orson haven't been found dead. There must be something really big though for the remaining children to still be in protective custody. One would think the parental units would do everything they can to fight for their children, and do what is necessary to get them back. Find their missing little ones too. MOO

CPS is responsible to investigate any circumstance that potentially poses a risk or a danger to a child. If CPS is convinced there is an ongoing risk of harm, they can remove your child from your home. IMO, CPS determined there was an ongoing risk for the children of JW/TW to remain unsupervised with the children and they were removed.

As far as I know, I don't believe that JW/TW ever requested CPS take custody of their children because they were worried for their safety and welfare after siblings Orin and Orson were abducted from the backyard -- as they alleged to police.

I don't ever recall the parents expressing concern that the children could have been abducted as a warning or for revenge against them for some prior bad deed. Nope -- I can't recall the parents feeling responsible here at all!

 

[rosesfromangels]

^^rsbm

I believe the entire article -- taken in whole, explains the statement above.

All of the children of the parents (both bio and adopted) are currently in the custody of state services-- pending the ongoing investigation of the missing siblings that allegedly vanished from the family backyard.

It follows that Orin and Orson would not be treated differently i.e., taken first into custody if located -while the investigation concludes how two minor children vanished while right under the noses of their parents.

MOO

I am not familiar with the CPS system. Is the standard protocol to place children with an extended family member? If so, then the fact they were not (?) to the best of my knowledge, is somewhat revealing in itself.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Seattle1]

I am not familiar with the CPS system. Is the standard protocol to place children with an extended family member? If so, then the fact they were not (?) to the best of my knowledge, is somewhat revealing in itself.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I agree. And it seems to me that the police chief proved correct when he implied nobody and/or nothing ruled out in the disappearance of the children (i.e., unnamed persons detained news). Chief also stated from the beginning that foul play suspected since the children could not have left the residence as alleged without assistance.

 

[Rachelj1]

I can not even believe these sweet boys have not been found .

 

[BuckeyeGal]

I am not familiar with the CPS system. Is the standard protocol to place children with an extended family member? If so, then the fact they were not (?) to the best of my knowledge, is somewhat revealing in itself.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Children's Services usually tries to find a family member who would be able to take care of a child in lieu of foster care placement.

 

[Seattle1]

Children's Services usually tries to find a family member who would be able to take care of a child in lieu of foster care placement.

It's an imperfect system.

I'm thinking about 8yr old Taryn Summer (Idaho) recently found dead inside a black trash bag on the floor of her grandmother's vehicle. Grandmother reporter her as a runaway. After TS removed from her mother, she was first in the care of Pastor Hughes and his wife (foster family) before CPS placed her with family -- her grandmother. Grandmother now facing charges related to her death.

In the West case - I believe all the family under suspicion and best to keep the children in foster care. MOO

Emmett community comes together to hold vigil for Taryn Summers - East Idaho News