Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020

[cvaldez1975]

Or fully potty trained.
I know these two tikes were well past potty training age, but do we know if they had hit that developmental milestone?

Potty training often seems to be the centerpiece of many problems

amateur opinion and speculation

not one of my 6 boys was potty trained before 3 and once they were, they werent perfect at it. if the grandparents are elderly (or even if not), its not shocking parents wouldnt leave two active and possibly not fully trained small kids with them, that i do agree.

 

[Knox]

I wonder if this explanation is actually not the whole truth but just a more palatable/less awkward explanation than the real reason for leaving the two siblings at home while the other kids headed off to Grandma's. This is purely speculation on my part, but I have heard of families which have to deal with grandparents who are only interested in their kids' biological children, and who refuse to babysit/take on an outing/have for an overnight visit their kids' foster children (AND, in some cases, their stepchildren). I'm not saying this is the case with this family, but it does seem like a more plausible explanation than the children's ages. A more benign version of the same explanation might be that the kids were simply too young and active for the grandparents to feel comfortable taking responsibility for watching them--god only knows there are more than enough threads on Websleuths about the terrible tragedies that can occur when a tiny, fearless, fleet-of-foot little human scoots out of the house before Grandma/Grandpa/elderly caregiver even notices they're gone...

Good thoughts, but two of the four children at Grandma's are also adopted.

 

[MojaveMave]

Even though I have my suspicions about TW & JW, I agree it's hard to watch them being questioned by the bio-family. It's bordering on harassment and I think LE should take charge of that situation. I'd hate for it to escalate into something ugly. Bio-family needs to step back and let LE handle the investigation period.

Agreed, I don't understand why the bio family is inserting themselves like that. <modsnip> Legally, they have no rights unless there was some kind of agreement with the adoption, but I'm not thinking there was since the birth mother told the Bakersfield news she hadn't seen the children since 2018. I have plenty of opinions in reading the posts of the bio family, but since it's just speculative, I won't post it... but I do feel there is a serious mental health issue with at least one of the bio family members and for their own protection and well being, the bio and adoptive families, both, the bio family really needs to back off because it really does seem to be pushing the lines of harassment. If they have a beef with the system that allowed the adoption, great... but that's no reason to take it upon themselves to go "question" the adopted family like that, to be posting things the way they have.

I'm suspicious of everyone, but I don't really understand the bio family response here. It seems.... a little extreme. If they were this upset and "knew" this stuff, why weren't they taking it to LE long before know? I don't want to say "opportunistic" because that's not the word I want to use, but something similar comes to mind. Thing is, I respect people too much to say much more because I don't think rumors help anything.

I just wish CCPD would say something.... anything... I mean they alerted the community and then, just...nothing. But the reason there isn't much media attention is because the ones that have tried all got the same response, "We have no updates to share."

 

[Knox]

I am assuming at this time that they do have a fireplace ?
Was collecting wood a usual, normal activity for him ?
Imo.

Google the address and you'll find a sale listing with pictures, there is a fireplace in the home. It was purchased in September this year.

 

[beatrixpotter]

I have a large family and I'd say there is nothing even remotely odd about grandparents not taking all the grandkids and the youngest ones staying home. I'd suggest that is actually way more common with large families. I live across the street from my parents and they never wanted to take ALL our kids for an extended period of time when they were little. Neither did my in laws. And I didn't trust my in laws to watch children that age after they let one of my toddlers run out in the street once. My own dad is neurotic about safety with our kids but he's also just older and tired and doesn't want to do it non stop for a few days.

A large group of children is just exhausting, especially when you aren't used to watching a large of group of children like that daily. Even if the children are well behaved they are still just amplified in noise and energy.

3 and 4 might not be toddlers. The actual meaning of the word toddler really has no bearing on this issue though. It's possible the grandparents don't favor the adopted children. But I know with my own parents or in laws it was and is just really about making things easier for them. It's a lot to ask someone to take care of 6 kids.

 

[MojaveMave]

It just seemed odd that he said he was getting firewood from outside the gate.

Maybe, maybe not. Out there, people tend to scavenge for firewood and stuff to burn. There are only a few places to buy firewood out there, like the hardware store, and it's expensive. It's not unusual for people to burn dead brush and even pieces of wood from trash piles dumped in vacant lots. Unfortunately, illegal dumping is a real problem out there, even though it's pretty much free to dump household trash at the landfill. The exception are commercial operations, like construction. Those jerks dump stuff in the desert all the time. Dead creosote bushes are commonly burned...though not always the wisest choice because the fumes can be bad. But when you don't have much else, it is what it is.

 

[Warwick7]

Good thoughts, but two of the four children at Grandma's are also adopted.

This is correct.

 

[MsMarple]

Has msm stated which grandma/grandparents the other kids were visiting?

 

[Warwick7]

I have a large family and I'd say there is nothing even remotely odd about grandparents not taking all the grandkids and the youngest ones staying home. I'd suggest that is actually way more common with large families. I live across the street from my parents and they never wanted to take ALL our kids for an extended period of time when they were little. Neither did my in laws. And I didn't trust my in laws to watch children that age after they let one of my toddlers run out in the street once. My own dad is neurotic about safety with our kids but he's also just older and tired and doesn't want to do it non stop for a few days.

A large group of children is just exhausting, especially when you aren't used to watching a large of group of children like that daily. Even if the children are well behaved they are still just amplified in noise and energy.

3 and 4 might not be toddlers. The actual meaning of the word toddler really has no bearing on this issue though. It's possible the grandparents don't favor the adopted children. But I know with my own parents or in laws it was and is just really about making things easier for them. It's a lot to ask someone to take care of 6 kids.

BBM

Good thoughts, but two of the four children at Grandma's are also adopted.

 

[10ofRods]

Good thoughts, but two of the four children at Grandma's are also adopted.

But not all adopted kids are treated equally, as I've mentioned before. My friend, Marvie, was adopted two years ahead of his sister. The parents acted as if he wasn't theirs at all and it was entirely noticeable if you were around them very much.

There are lots of adoptees in my family, for whatever reason. My cousin adopted two kids, didn't like one and sent that one back.

I could go on. I will say again: bonding is tricky, not automatic, and not all parents bond to each of their bio-kids, obviously - in our family, my grandmother never took to me, but did find one of her adopted great grandchildren quite appealing (adopted by her favorite daughter's daughter). My other grandmother adored me (and her other 2 adopted grandkids).

We don't know anything about these various children or why some might be favored (or whether adoption has anything to do with it), but from the POV of most adopted kids, when they are less favored or abandoned or sent back into the system, they feel it has something to do with the initial abandonment, I think that's natural.

It's also natural for some people to prefer their bio-kin and for other people to take longer to bond to newly adopted kids.

 

[Gigi3]

Even though I have my suspicions about TW & JW, I agree it's hard to watch them being questioned by the bio-family. It's bordering on harassment and I think LE should take charge of that situation. I'd hate for it to escalate into something ugly. Bio-family needs to step back and let LE handle the investigation period.

ITA- it is very hard to watch this interview because of the harassing situation.

This just doesn’t have the typical missing persons vibe to it, IMO.
Where are the LE pressers? I would think if these toddlers just wandered off, time would be of the essence? I’m assuming LE is working this from another angle because the whole scenario just seems off. I’m not sure what to think, but I hope these babies are safe somewhere.

 

[Knox]

I have a large family and I'd say there is nothing even remotely odd about grandparents not taking all the grandkids and the youngest ones staying home. I'd suggest that is actually way more common with large families. I live across the street from my parents and they never wanted to take ALL our kids for an extended period of time when they were little. Neither did my in laws. And I didn't trust my in laws to watch children that age after they let one of my toddlers run out in the street once. My own dad is neurotic about safety with our kids but he's also just older and tired and doesn't want to do it non stop for a few days.

A large group of children is just exhausting, especially when you aren't used to watching a large of group of children like that daily. Even if the children are well behaved they are still just amplified in noise and energy.

3 and 4 might not be toddlers. The actual meaning of the word toddler really has no bearing on this issue though. It's possible the grandparents don't favor the adopted children. But I know with my own parents or in laws it was and is just really about making things easier for them. It's a lot to ask someone to take care of 6 kids.

I agree, six kids would be a lot to handle for anyone, let alone elderly grandparents. That doesn't bother me at all.

What is interesting is there were no other children in the home when Orson & Orrin went missing. No witnesses to say what happened prior to their disappearance, other than Mom & Dad. Is that just a whopper of a coincidence? I'm waiting to hear more details from LE before taking my thoughts any further.

 

[10ofRods]

Maybe, maybe not. Out there, people tend to scavenge for firewood and stuff to burn. There are only a few places to buy firewood out there, like the hardware store, and it's expensive. It's not unusual for people to burn dead brush and even pieces of wood from trash piles dumped in vacant lots. Unfortunately, illegal dumping is a real problem out there, even though it's pretty much free to dump household trash at the landfill. The exception are commercial operations, like construction. Those jerks dump stuff in the desert all the time. Dead creosote bushes are commonly burned...though not always the wisest choice because the fumes can be bad. But when you don't have much else, it is what it is.

It is what it is - but for some people, it can be something like sniffing glue

<<These reports indicate that brief exposure to large amounts of coal tar creosote may result in a rash or severe irritation of the skin, chemical burns of the surfaces of the eye, convulsions and mental confusion, kidney or liver problems, unconsciousness, or even death.>>

ATSDR - Public Health Statement: Creosote.

 

[MojaveMave]

Hoping they'll be found safe somewhere.
Their age makes this seem like it won't have a happy ending, though.
LE have not said they were possibly kidnapped or left of their own accord (i.e., ran away).
So what's left ?
MOO

Per the Nixle advisory last Wednesday, which was the last official communication about this, they said (red emphasis added is mine)

As you all are aware, California City Police Department along with assisting agencies are engaged in an active investigation regarding the two missing brothers Orson and Orrin West. The two have been missing since Monday night December 22 around 5:45 PM. Both approximately 3 feet tall and approximately 30-40 lbs. They were last seen wearing black sweatshirts and gray sweatpants. Both are believed to have left on foot from 10717 Aspen Ave.
We have been working tirelessly, using every possible resource we can to try to locate the children. We ask for you patience and your prayers that we will safely bring this to a conclusion.
If you or anyone have any information that can assist us in locating Orson and Orrin please call our dispatch at (760)373-8606.

Address/Location
California City Police Department
21130 Hacienda Blvd
California City, CA 93505

Contact
Emergency: 9-1-1
Non-emergencies: 760-373-8606

 

[Warwick7]

Important detail PM - the other children were "on vacation". Transcribed below from your link, beginning at 12:30-Bayan Wang 23ABC - Facebook

• A speaker off camera is asking the bio-parents if they realize how the situation looks. "You went in the house and then the kids disappeared".
• TW- Exactly, and that's what we are trying to figure out.
• Speaker off camera- How did they disappear, you guys have the house supervised already. My question is why are they the only two children sent out of the house?
• TW-The rest of the kids were with Grandma. They left, they went on vacation.
• Speaker off camera- So they didn't go.
• TW-No they are too young, we watched them, and it turns out that happened.

Thanks @Knox
Hmmmm... Why is a 4 year old too young to go to the grandparents?

 

[cvaldez1975]

But not all adopted kids are treated equally, as I've mentioned before. My friend, Marvie, was adopted two years ahead of his sister. The parents acted as if he wasn't theirs at all and it was entirely noticeable if you were around them very much.

There are lots of adoptees in my family, for whatever reason. My cousin adopted two kids, didn't like one and sent that one back.

I could go on. I will say again: bonding is tricky, not automatic, and not all parents bond to each of their bio-kids, obviously - in our family, my grandmother never took to me, but did find one of her adopted great grandchildren quite appealing (adopted by her favorite daughter's daughter). My other grandmother adored me (and her other 2 adopted grandkids).

We don't know anything about these various children or why some might be favored (or whether adoption has anything to do with it), but from the POV of most adopted kids, when they are less favored or abandoned or sent back into the system, they feel it has something to do with the initial abandonment, I think that's natural.

It's also natural for some people to prefer their bio-kin and for other people to take longer to bond to newly adopted kids.

i have a friend who married a man who had adopted 2 children with his ex, from Guatemala. both were young id say maybe a year to 18 months. well after the divorce the ex wife fought hard for the boy but completely abandoned the girl. the girl was much more active and rambunctious. that girl is now 14 and my friend is her only mother figure. she gave my friend hell for years!!! thankfully through lots of therapy, their relationship si very strong but my friend's heart breaks when they do the family sessions and the girl reveals pain from the way her adoptive mom treated her.

 

[Warwick7]

I agree, six kids would be a lot to handle for anyone, let alone elderly grandparents. That doesn't bother me at all.

What is interesting is there were no other children in the home when Orson & Orrin went missing. No witnesses to say what happened prior to their disappearance, other than Mom & Dad. Is that just a whopper of a coincidence? I'm waiting to hear more details from LE before taking my thoughts any further.

BAM!!

 

[Knox]

Interesting, plain clothes BPD Officers helped CCPD at the house yesterday, per the video below.

 

[cvaldez1975]

Thanks @Knox
Hmmmm... Why is a 4 year old too young to go to the grandparents?

some ppl dont like being soley responsible for more than one kid under 5 at a time. i found that out when my second was born. i love all my kids but i never placed myself in the position to have multiple small kids at one time again.

 

[Jo in Calif]

Nothing new but more interest in the case.
Adoptive parents say two boys disappeared from backyard at same time, as search for missing children continues