CONVICTION OVERTURNED CA - Sgt. Todd Sommer, 23, fatally poisoned, San Diego, 18 Feb 2002

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Dalilah said:
I don't think it has a single thing to do with gender. It has everything in the world to do with evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.

Is there another case that is precisely the same as this one, but wherein a man was the defendant, and I just missed it?

I'm a bit confused as to why you seem to think this is about gender?
I have seen other cases where it was purely circumstantial evidence and people on the boards have the man convicted before the jury does.

I'm finding a lot of cases around this board that convict and condemn the man before there is even an arrest or trial, yet a woman being tried for a crime receives different viewpoints.

I'm just trying to understand why people's attitudes are different when the alledged perpertrator is a man vs a woman.
 
MagicRose99 said:
I'm really confused by some attitudes... I don't mean to be confrontational or condescending, but I'd really like to understand...

I had no feelings on this case one way or another, but it's been fasinating watching the differing views and convictions of those posting on this thread.

Why, when the accused is a man, he's "guilty until proven innocent" and when the accused is a woman she's "innocent until proven guilty?" If a man is convicted he "deserves" the verdict and yet when a woman is found guilty the jury "doesn't know what they're doing?"

Whether or not we believe that the evidence supports the outcome, it seems to me that there is quite a difference in attitudes between finding a man guilty vs finding a woman guilty...

Are there double standards? Are we just conditioned to believe the man "did it" while women are not typically stereo-typed? Are we so used to hearing, "look to the husband, boyfriend, ex..." when a woman is injured/killed vs not hearing those words when a woman is accused of the crime?

I'd really like to understand what people are thinking to have such different attitudes...


The "attitude" is in the evidence. If there was evidence that I thought proved she murdered this man, she deserves to spend the rest of her life in prison. However, I don't think the jury saw past her behavior, which, if you had listened to the trial, you would know, was the SAME as before he died. They were shopping on line for people to have three-somes with. This is not your average housewife. That's what he wanted. That's what he got. There is nothing that has this woman purchasing arsenic. There is nothing that proves she fed him arsenic. There is no proof he even died from arsenic. So, regardless of whether the defendant is male or female, I think the state should have to prove its case. In this case, it did not, IMO.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
The "attitude" is in the evidence. If there was evidence that I thought proved she murdered this man, she deserves to spend the rest of her life in prison. However, I don't think the jury saw past her behavior, which, if you had listened to the trial, you would know, was the SAME as before he died. They were shopping on line for people to have three-somes with. This is not your average housewife. That's what he wanted. That's what he got. There is nothing that has this woman purchasing arsenic. There is nothing that proves she fed him arsenic. There is no proof he even died from arsenic. So, regardless of whether the defendant is male or female, I think the state should have to prove its case. In this case, it did not, IMO.
Jeana: I agree with all you said.I did not see all the trial just reading what I could.An it had nothing to do with Male female in my eyes. I did not read how there was no arsenic in the blood and a year later Poof ohh there it is in the organs. I just wonder if she had not donated the organs if they would have been tested? And the no proof of purchase all to me was big.
I do respect the jury's verdict but I think if I was sitting on it. I would want those explained to me.
Now MagiRose in the Peterson case. I knew the day I heard about Laci Scott did it. Had nothing to dod with his sex had to do with his actions after she disappeared.
 
Peter Hamilton said:
GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY WEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee--I TOLD YOU SH'Es GUITY AS SIN!!
Hey Peter. I am with you on this. I am very glad that she was found guilty. I felt that she was guilty, but I didn't know if the jury would see it that way. I'm so glad that they did.
 
JDB said:
Jeana: I agree with all you said.I did not see all the trial just reading what I could.An it had nothing to do with Male female in my eyes. I did not read how there was no arsenic in the blood and a year later Poof ohh there it is in the organs. I just wonder if she had not donated the organs if they would have been tested? And the no proof of purchase all to me was big.
I do respect the jury's verdict but I think if I was sitting on it. I would want those explained to me.
Now MagiRose in the Peterson case. I knew the day I heard about Laci Scott did it. Had nothing to dod with his sex had to do with his actions after she disappeared.
------------------

JDB, I hope people wont jump on me as I cant actually quote the arsenic in the blood bit.The Forensic gentleman with the beard explained it to the effect that arsenic doesn't stay in the bloodstream but stays in the liver and one other organ.I'd have to read the transcripts to point to exactly what I am saying.I might add I am still not certain she did it.This was a weak case as the Media stated.
 
Nore said:
------------------

JDB, I hope people wont jump on me as I cant actually quote the arsenic in the blood bit.The Forensic gentleman with the beard explained it to the effect that arsenic doesn't stay in the bloodstream but stays in the liver and one other organ.I'd have to read the transcripts to point to exactly what I am saying.I might add I am still not certain she did it.This was a weak case as the Media stated.
Do you know where to find the transcripts? I would like to read them all.But Arnsenic does stay in the blood for 24 hours at least.
 
JDB said:
Do you know where to find the transcripts? I would like to read them all.But Arnsenic does stay in the blood for 24 hours at least.


If you join Court TV Extra (your first 30 days are free, then $5.95 per month aftert that), you can watch the entire trial without commercials on the website:

http://www.courttv.com/extra/
 
JDB said:
Please explain why no Arnsenic was in the fluid or blood? but after a time it showed up in the organs?That part alone causes me to worry about the evidence

Arsenic targets the liver most and the kidneys second. It cycles out of the blood and urine pretty fast. That's why blood tests unless taken soon after ingestion are useless.
Dr Larry Kobilinski said from the start that his symptoms and the tests were consistent with AAP.
Justice is served for Todd but it doesn't restore him to the people who love him. It's sad.
I am as sure of her guilt as I am of Scooter's.
 
JDB said:
Do you know where to find the transcripts? I would like to read them all.But Arnsenic does stay in the blood for 24 hours at least.

Transcripts of what, JDB?
He died 9/10 days after first becoming ill.
 
lisafremont said:
With all due respect, that is not true. I heard the 911 call and it sounded fake to me. If she faked that call, that's the case. Everything else fits, IMO.
--Agree--I have heard a few 911 death calls myself and the innocent callers were way more hysterical than she was--Evidently the jury agreed
 
Peter Hamilton said:
--Agree--I have heard a few 911 death calls myself and the innocent callers were way more hysterical than she was--Evidently the jury agreed
Didn't the jury request the 911 tape while they were deliberating?
 
nanandjim said:
Hey Peter. I am with you on this. I am very glad that she was found guilty. I felt that she was guilty, but I didn't know if the jury would see it that way. I'm so glad that they did.

nanandjim, I thought she was guilty after I heard the 911. Any of the 3 outcomes seemed possible until I saw the CAs. Gunn was coherent and gave the jury a narrative using the evidence so effectively.

Udell gave a rant from notes he read and which appeared to have been shuffled into a random order. He frequently misstated evidence which is insulting to the intelligence of the jurors. But since he began with an insult ("I don't know if you people appreciate how lucky you are to live in San Diego.") it was nothing new. He gave, hands down, the WORST close I have ever seen.

That's when I felt acquittal was off the table. Conviction was a strong possibility and a hung jury could always loom.

The key evidence against Cindy was her own. As I have said, if she they believed she was faking doing CPR, that was the case. There is no innocent explanation for pretending to try to save your dying husband.

The cross examination of Cindy was very effective. I loved the look on Udell's face when Gunn questioned her claim that in the weeks after Todd died she called his cell phone over and over to hear his voice on his message.

Using the phone records, Gunn got Cindy to admit that her phone got incoming calls from Todd's cell then. And then she got her to admit that she gave Todd's cell to her daughter and they were calling back and forth. I thought Udell was going to choke.

I am so glad the jury got it right.
 
lisafremont said:
Transcripts of what, Jon?
He died 9/10 days after first becoming ill.
The trial And that is another thing. If he was posioned why did he go to Knotts Berry farm the day before and drinking beer?Seems after his visit 9/10 days before he was feeling much better.
 
nanandjim said:
Didn't the jury request the 911 tape while they were deliberating?

Beth Karas said the 911 was on CD and the first thing they requested was a player, so yes, they must have played it.

When I heard that yesterday they had requested readbacks of Cindy's and two witnesses (Susan Beach and the agent who took CS's statement in 2002), I felt confident that they had concluded it was an arsenic poisoning (otherwise, why not acquit and go home?) and they were just deciding whether they believed Cindy had done it.

The verdict came quickly this morning so perhaps they all wanted to sleep on the decision. 11:47 including readbacks. They were thorough. The case was stronger than the TH*s believed.

*But they would misstate evidence. For example, this morning Lisa Bloom referred to Cindy's grieving behavior and included her calling Todd's phone when that was debunked.
 
lisafremont said:
Arsenic targets the liver most and the kidneys second. It cycles out of the blood and urine pretty fast. That's why blood tests unless taken soon after ingestion are useless.
Dr Larry Kobilinski said from the start that his symptoms and the tests were consistent with AAP.
Justice is served for Todd but it doesn't restore him to the people who love him. It's sad.
I am as sure of her guilt as I am of Scooter's.

All of this reminds me of Lynn Turner whose poison was antifreeze. Still hard to determine if you aren't looking for it. The ultimate is going to be in the autopsy and what the liver and kidneys held. Blood and urine are fast accesses out of the body and fluctuate depending on what is going on.

I haven't followed this case but I do know a thing or two about medical issues. I think this gal murdered her husband. I saw her response and she was pretty much resolved until she can think of another alternative. I would imagine it would be an appeal since the rest is fairly self explanatory.

Sorry for the cut and dry but the body is an amazing thing. It will tell a tale even if defense attorney's don't hold that in there beliefs. He was poisoned. Period. If someone else knows who could have poisoned him than they need to speak up.
 
JDB said:
The trial And that is another thing. If he was posioned why did he go to Knotts Berry farm the day before and drinking beer?Seems after his visit 9/10 days before he was feeling much better.

I don't know where there would be access to transcripts. however you could join Extra for free and see a whole bunch of stuff on video.

Todd was 23 and always healthy. He was a tough Marine and even though feeling terrible, no doubt, went to Knotts to please Cindy. Same as he went to work. Tough it out. But he was too sick to drive home, Cindy said.
Beers? What is our evidence of that? Cindy's sayso? Uh oh.

Here's a really telling fact, JDB. When he became violently ill (in the right time frame for an AAP when NO ONE else was around) Cindy called his mother to tell her and her mother as well. She was preparing them for his sudden death, I believe. And the medical record confirms how sick he was.

But when the defense shifted to the "too much arsenic, too little sickness" defense, she changed her story. On the stand she tried to minimize his illness and say he wasn't that sick.

JDB, I am as sure of her guilt as Scooter's. I am telling you. If you could see her testify, you might agree.
 
lisafremont said:
Arsenic targets the liver most and the kidneys second. It cycles out of the blood and urine pretty fast. That's why blood tests unless taken soon after ingestion are useless.
Dr Larry Kobilinski said from the start that his symptoms and the tests were consistent with AAP.
Justice is served for Todd but it doesn't restore him to the people who love him. It's sad.
I am as sure of her guilt as I am of Scooter's.
If that is the case. When he was in ER the first time they had the blood did not find arsenic in it.The NCIS could have ran samples again Guess what the night he dies no sign of it!!! Sorry I agree most of the time but this time Jury got it wrong. But I repect it
 
Jeana (DP) said:
The "attitude" is in the evidence. If there was evidence that I thought proved she murdered this man, she deserves to spend the rest of her life in prison. However, I don't think the jury saw past her behavior, which, if you had listened to the trial, you would know, was the SAME as before he died. They were shopping on line for people to have three-somes with. This is not your average housewife. That's what he wanted. That's what he got. There is nothing that has this woman purchasing arsenic. There is nothing that proves she fed him arsenic. There is no proof he even died from arsenic. So, regardless of whether the defendant is male or female, I think the state should have to prove its case. In this case, it did not, IMO.

Jeana, I would like to respectfully disagree.
I believe she murdered Todd and I can give you a whole list of reasons and not one of them is the salacious stuff. All from her words and actions before during and right after his death.

And as for her behavior. It DID change. Todd wanted to stay home with the kids. You heard that. She wanted to go out with her buddies. Todd was a drag.
SHE registered at a SINGLES dating website in the week before he got sick. Todd wasn't in that.
As for the nude pictures of the two of them. We don't know that he knew about that. There was no evidence of that.
Before Todd died and she got a check for $250,000, she was not getting her boob job anytime soon, not in Tijuana in thong contests, not picking up tabs left and right. But she sure was afterwards.

And as evidence of her cold, cold heart...How about telling her poor (really) grieving MIL to "mind your own business" when she asks Cindy when she's coming home (and MIL is babysitting)? Todd was dead, what 24 hours?

And I will bet the jury wanted to hear Susan Beach's testimony about her phone call from Cindy at the hospital soon after Todd died. She told SB she was "fine now. I've come to terms with it." Quick.

And then there were the FOUR separate questions about money to witnesses within FIVE hours of Todd's death. Heck, she was quizzing Todd's uncle about how she should file her taxes five hours after he's dead!!!

Oh, no, I am sure about this one.
 
JDB said:
If that is the case. When he was in ER the first time they had the blood did not find arsenic in it.The NCIS could have ran samples again Guess what the night he dies no sign of it!!! Sorry I agree most of the time but this time Jury got it wrong. But I repect it

JDB, they didn't test for it. They didn't suspect poisoning. Heavy metal tests are rarely done.
JDB, honey, you're entitled believe they are wrong, but I can tell you that you've got the facts wrong. If you get them right and still feel the same way, so be it. But if the above quote is the "evidence" that convinces you, then I can tell you. No. That is not the evidence.
 
From the Keene Free Press

Jury Nullification: Your Power to Overturn Unjust Laws
Thursday, 23 February 2006
By Steve Villee

Has this ever happened to you? You're called for jury duty, and you end up serving on a case where the evidence makes it clear the defendant broke the letter of the law. But yet you feel strongly the defendant hasn't done anything morally wrong. You consider the law itself unjust.

What you may not know is that in this situation, you can vote to acquit the defendant. If the other jurors agree, the final verdict will be not guilty. This is known as "jury nullification", because the jury effectively nullifies the law, at least in this case. The judge might try to say you're not allowed to do this, but the fact remains you have the power. Jurors aren't required to explain the reasons for their verdict, and the judge can't legally overturn a verdict of not guilty from the jury. If you're concerned about how your neighbors or colleagues might react, you can let them presume you just had some reasonable doubt about the facts.

Jury nullification has a long and respected history, often being viewed as a community's last line of defense against unjust laws. In 1670, when William Penn was charged with speaking against the official religion of England by delivering a Quaker sermon, the jurors refused to convict him even when the presiding justices ordered them to find him guilty. Jury nullification played a significant role in the resistance to the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 and the National Prohibition Act of 1919.

In order for jury nullification to bring about social change, juries need to keep nullifying a particular law over and over. Eventually, prosecutors will get the message and stop prosecuting violations of that law. But what causes this kind of repeated jury nullification Two key ingredients are awareness of the power to nullify and a regional political leaning.

Clearly, the power to nullify doesn't do much good if jurors aren't aware of it. An organization known as the American Jury Institut (also called the Fully Informed Jury Association, web site http://www.fija.org) is working to educate the American public about the power to nullify. This group also lobbies for state legislation to recognize the right of juries to judge the law in addition to the facts. So far, four states (Georgia, Indiana, Maryland and Oregon) have such provisions in their constitutions. In New Hampshire, Rep. Dick Marple and others have tried to get a bill passed regarding informed juries, most recently in 2005 with House Bill 530.

To see the significance of a regional political leaning, consider the usual argument made against jury nullification: "If you think a law is unjust, you should lobby the legislature to repeal it." But what if a certain region has a high concentration of people who disapprove of a particular law, even though overall the law has enough popular support that it can't be repealed? As a hypothetical example, suppose New Hampshire House Bill 1713 (restricting the sale of pseudoephedrine base drugs such as Sudafed) has enough support statewide that it is passed. Now suppose it turns out most people in Cheshire County feel the law is unjust. If a local pharmacy owner in Cheshire County is charged with selling someone more than his monthly quota of Sudafed, and if the case goes to trial, it will be heard in the Cheshire Superior Court in Keene, and the jury will be composed of people from Cheshire County. You can see that if the jurors are aware of their power to nullify, there's a fair chance they will do so.

Of course, compared to the rest of the country, New Hampshire already has a regional political leaning toward smaller government and greater individual liberty. The Free State Project recognized this leaning, and is working to enhance it. As more like-minded people move to New Hampshire, jury nullification will become more and more relevant, not so much for the state court system, but for the federal district court in Concord. There are federal laws against carrying a firearm near a school, or making too many cash deposits into your bank account. But someday, New Hampshire jurors may be predisposed to nullify such laws.

How will the judge feel about you as a juror voting to acquit because you disagree with the law? In New Hampshire, it seems to vary from one judge to the next. Some judges have no problem with it, and even go so far as to inform jurors of their power to nullify. But other judges don't like the idea of juries making an end run around the legislature, so they work actively to prevent it.

In the latter case, where the judge wants jurors to decide only the facts and not the law, you may face an ethical dilemma. During the voir dire process, the prosecuting attorney may ask questions designed to reveal whether you consider the law unjust, or he may ask whether you have received any literature about fully informed juries. Depending on your answers, the judge may allow a challenge for cause, excusing you from the jury. Thus, complete honesty during voir dire might cost you your power to nullify. Even after the testimony is finished and you retire with the other jurors to the deliberation room, if you are open about the fact that you feel the law is unjust, another juror might decide to notify the judge.

One final remark: like anything else, jury nullification can lead to a perversion of justice. The trial of O.J. Simpson and the trial of police officers in the beating of Rodney King are two examples often cited of jury nullification gone awry. Regardless of whether these two cases are valid examples, the potential is there, so do consider carefully all the relevant facts and circumstances before making any decision to nullify.

Last Updated ( Friday, 10 March 2006 )

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