CA CA - Sue Sharp 36, & 3 children, Keddie Cabin Murders, Plumas, 11 Apr 1981

[Betty P]

When stabbing multiple people to death things get real slippery, its pretty common for the perpetrators to slide on the grip and injur themselves. In the week after, a few people were noticed to have cut marks on their hands/arms, Marty wasn't one. And of course the #1 rule, a killer will always leave something of themselves AND take something of the scene with them. Your dealing with a whole lot of blood without the slightest transfer? That's more than miraculous.

The crime scene wasn't properly processed. It's impossible to say whether or not the killers left blood or other evidence there.

 

[Betty P]

In m's (strictly hearsay) confession, its claimed he killed tina with hammer blows. Where? In her chest? That seems weird to me. The others had hammer blows to the head, which seems more along the lines of how one would kill a person with a hammer. This tells me M knew how everybody died except Tina, who'd yet to be found. The others were common knowledge from the time of discovery.

I'll have to review the account of his confession. Do you have a link? TIA

 

[Betty P]

I was referring to "Marty and Bo ran back to 26- their cabin, 100 feet away, changed out of their bloody disco suits into jeans, and ran back to the Back Door to re-establish an alibi. Loon stayed at 28, guarding the victims and keeping the smaller boys scared.

I was referring to "Marty and Bo ran back to 26- their cabin, 100 feet away, changed out of their bloody disco suits into jeans, and ran back to the Back Door to re-establish an alibi. Loon stayed at 28, guarding the victims and keeping the smaller boys scared. As I originally theorized, it looks as though they had no clue Justin was in 28, which is a far more sensible conclusion than any other offered. Every time I've brought it up, she's forgotten all about her favorite child, her younger son, who she'd abandoned for hours while drinking at the bar. She admitted leaving him alone, supposedly asleep, but has NEVER given any indication (to me or anyone else in any known report) that Justin had come to them about sleeping at 28. Justin was a non-entity in 26, and had spent almost the entire day with Rick Sharp. Sue dropped them off at the ballfield for tryouts early that Saturday, but it appears Marty picked up Justin. Marty was proved to be in EQ at the time, a 32 yo drug dealer seen at the local video arcade. Why else would he be there? The same reports also state John had been there around the same time. Of course, this lines up: the arcade was across the intersection from the Meeks house. Less than 100 yards from where John had spent his last night on earth.

Back at the bar after the initial attacks, Bo and Marty quietly returned to 28 after Last Call. Two packs of Camels were found in the cabin. Sue smoked B&, Marty and Bo smoked Camels. Loon, too, I believe. One pack was empty, crumpled and abandoned on a bookshelf. The other pack, nearly full, was on the couch, on a bare spot where a cushion had been removed.

The cushion was probably meant to silence the violence to follow. It was placed on the floor in a small area lit by the bathroom light across the hallway. Although the killers probably brought a flashlights, the only light turned on during their entire time in 28 was that light. In turn, each victim (unk abt Tina) was placed on the cushion and assaulted. If Dana was still alive, he would have been first to be killed in the second volley. "

JMO, I don't think that's an accurate timeline. Some links will be helpful. TIA

 

[Boniesli]

Yes, that is the prevailing theory. Here is a link to the Feather River Bulletin articles written in 2018. It was a 3 part series. This specific link includes the information about Marty & Bo leaving Marilyn to watch over the victims while they returned home to change out of their suits & then to the bar to further establish their alibi. I'm sure the article probably includes a link to the Keddie forum as well.

Feather River Bulletin May 2 Page 18

And I agree with everything you said Hathor. In Marty's supposed confession to his therapist he claims to have killed Tina with a hammer. According to the autopsy her cause of death could not be determined, however, there was no evidence of blunt force trauma. That part is left out when discussing his confession. I don't know, I just feel there has to be DNA evidence & do not understand why the testing isn't being done. These victims & their families deserve justice.

 

[Boniesli]

I forgot to add in my previous post, in the newspaper article it states "an individual saw Martin burning clothes in a wood stove later that morning". This individual was Marilyn. She had stated that in the documentary (it's available on YouTube) made back in 2004(?). I thought that bit of information had been "debunked". Once people decided she was involved they attributed it to something she made up to distance herself from the crime. I'm surprised it was included in the article.

 

[Radaghest]

I forgot to add in my previous post, in the newspaper article it states "an individual saw Martin burning clothes in a wood stove later that morning". This individual was Marilyn. She had stated that in the documentary (it's available on YouTube) made back in 2004(?). I thought that bit of information had been "debunked". Once people decided she was involved they attributed it to something she made up to distance herself from the crime. I'm surprised it was included in the article.

The clothes burning may have actually happened, but she was manipulating the context of her involvement. (Admitting she was there and saw it - but, using white lies, tone of voice and feigned emotion to garner sympathy and claim innocence of knowing why it was done...much like a child in trouble might do to twist out of trouble/punishment from parents.)

I haven't read if any evidence of burned clothing was found. If this was found, that would be why the clothes burning was included in the article.

 

[Boniesli]

Thank you Rhadaghest, of course anything is possible and forum members researching the case years ago came to that same conclusion. I should have added, there was no evidence found corroborating her burning clothes story. However, I do not believe she told that story to the police back in '81. It was something she told to the documentary makers 25 years after the crime. There are reports available that show the cabin she & Marty lived in were searched after the murders and no such evidence was found. This case is frustrating because it appears there has been a lot of rumors, speculation & lies over the years. In addition to the main forum dedicated to the case, there are a couple lesser known forums online that have some of the original case files available to read (I'm just not sure if links to such forums are allowed to be posted here?).

 

[Radaghest]

Thank you Rhadaghest, of course anything is possible and forum members researching the case years ago came to that same conclusion. I should have added, there was no evidence found corroborating her burning clothes story. However, I do not believe she told that story to the police back in '81. It was something she told to the documentary makers 25 years after the crime. There are reports available that show the cabin she & Marty lived in were searched after the murders and no such evidence was found. This case is frustrating because it appears there has been a lot of rumors, speculation & lies over the years. In addition to the main forum dedicated to the case, there are a couple lesser known forums online that have some of the original case files available to read (I'm just not sure if links to such forums are allowed to be posted here?).

Can you message or email me links to hard evidence?
I'm a Data hound.
I'm currently working a spreadsheet on Cleveland Torso...because I'm that kind of OCD data hound. And, I like the old and the cold as far as cases.
I can start a Keddie sheet of my own compiling the hard data and look for anything that might be new insight.
But, WHAT is REALLY needed as far as WHAT will get an arrest since it seems like there are decent suspects here?
Or, if the suspects are NOT good enough, why?
What keeps potential living suspects from being arrested, or an official announcement of case solved?

 

[Radaghest]

Anyway, its obvious to me Tina was the "trophy" of this crime.
She was the only one removed and taken with the perpetrator.
Why else risk a potentially cranky/scared/wanting to escape child that would pose a high risk of recognition/escape/screaming and leading to arrest?
Eventually most captives are going to think at some point about some attempt at escape sooner or later.
Killing Sue and the two boys was just one task to get to the point of leaving with Tina.
Death of Tina had to be something that resulted in damage to soft tissues since I'm hearing the bones (including hyoid ) show no clues.
So, were looking at stabbing without hitting bone (maybe abdominal/slit throat), strangulation without hyoid damage (maybe ligature), drugs/alcohol/ other chemical, or other health wise (infection/illness/exposure to elements/starvation).
Some of these are up close and intimate methods.
Methods of someone who felt a personal connection to Tina.
I think Justin certainly is involved more than he is telling...he knew the killer/s and had a reason not to run screaming.
I think Dana was more involved more than is known (hence feet are tied hastily after death to make it appear he was a target, but his hands are still free - I think he was not tied during the killing for SOME "GOOD" REASON).
I think the events in the cabin leading to the murders involved some scenario about Tina.
And then Tina was gone/taken/left with the/one of perpetrator/s.
We know the perpetrator/s had a knife.
So, I think statistically its likely Tina was stabbed when she angered/frustrated her captor in some way.
A person this easy to anger to vicious rage might also have potentially strangled her if we follow the train of thought that Tina was an unwilling captive.

I also have thoughts regarding the scenario of Tina being a willing captive. I'm open to all scenarios in this rabbit hole.
Could she have overdosed on drugs/alcohol when with the perpetrator/s and then her body left? Seems like something a curious 12/13 year old might bumble into....or been dosed to keep her sedated/quiet.

Sue potentially knew/knew of the killer/s.
Justin probably knew the killer/s.
Dana probably knew the killers/s.
I think Tina definitely knew the killer/s somehow. Even if it was just being spoken to once or twice in passing.
Even if the suspects didn't live in the cabin neighborhood, they were familiar with the cabin to know they lived there. Maybe familiar enough to know they never locked their doors.

But, I feel that whoever it is, they felt comfortable/brave enough to enter a residence full of people for some purpose involving one of the kids.

I don't think the boys or drugs were the primary motivation in any way.
The boys (excluding Justin) were expendable.
If Sue were the primary motivation....no reason to take Tina (unless her father were involved, and then why not take the other kids as well?)

So, WHO BENEFITS from taking Tina?
I don't see Marty/Bo/Marilyn having any obvious benefit from taking her....if you can change my mind I'm open to that.

(Benefits could potentially be: money?, sex?, platonic companionship?, seen as "rescuing" Tina?)
Who would benefit from taking Tina and not Sue or the other kids?

 

[Boniesli]

Great thoughts Radaghest, thank you for all of that! I would be happy to message you some links. It would be great to have someone like you look into everything and hear your insights. I tend to agree with everything you said. I too believe the motive involves Tina. In the prevailing theory Tina was taken by MMB to throw off the investigation, she was killed in the cabin and carried (by foot) across a swinging bridge and hidden somewhere until morning. I personally do not believe that, too risky and would MMB really have the forethought to throw off the investigation in such a way? There has been speculation of Tina being involved, whether willingly or unwillingly, but it is something not talked about often. I believe it is certainly possible she came across someone previously which set this whole thing in motion, again possibly unknowingly. There is a "PON" list created by the police and as sad as it is to say there are comments on there from people saying things such as "Tina was street smart", "Tina was a fast little girl" and "Tina hated her mother". Of course, I don't know if any of that is true. Justin definitely knows more than he has said. One thing I think about in regards to the 3 younger boys is if it was MMB in the cabin that night why haven't they admitted such? The one person I can see all 3 of them covering for is Tina. Just speculation on my part. And again, whether she was involved willingly or unwillingly, they may have thought she would be coming home and didn't want to talk out of fear of something happening to her or fear of getting her in trouble.

Regarding Dana, John Douglas did do a profile on the case back in '81. He mentioned the possibility of Dana being forced to tie the other victims up. Which aligns with your thoughts. It has been said Douglas was fed incorrect information so his profile is off. But if that's the case, why even request his assistance in the first place? His profile also came to the conclusion that Tina was the motive and the crimes committed by someone who saw himself as a father figure and was trying to rescue her in his mind. He also mentioned Tina having remorse and becoming a liability to the offender which would put her life at risk. But back to Dana, it has been said, based on the autopsy results he was killed first. He was also killed differently, by manual strangulation. So perhaps he was tied to Johnny after death? But then again, it also appeared he had broken out of his bindings (tape) at some point.

There are some other people that could make good suspects. I don't know how much they have been looked into, back then or recently. And there appears to some items that could be useful for obtaining suspect DNA, specifically a denim shirt left at the scene that is believed to belong to the killer(s). I am not sure why it hasn't been tested, with how far DNA technology has come in the past few years. It would be great if it was tested and matched.

 

[Radaghest]

From the Camp 18 website:

"The Camp’s primary mission is to provide inmate fire crews for fire suppression activities in the Tehama, Glenn, Shasta and Plumas County areas. In addition to fire suppression, inmate hand crews provide a work force for conservation and community services projects in the local area."

When did these inmate work crews begin working in the local area?
Could someone previously on these crews, with knowledge of when the outer areas would be empty be involved?
What types of inmates (what are they incarcerated for) worked/work at the outside area of the prison?
How frequently were/are workers actually at the outside area of the camp?
How frequently was/is the outside area patrolled?
Was/is food stored at the camp for workers outside the prison?
Were/are there locations outside the prison to sleep available at the camp?
Do we have access to reports regarding the condition of and immediate surroundings of Tinas body when discovered?
How far away from the prison was the body?

Someone felt safe being near a prison/LE with Tina.
More than likely, I think the person has a connection to Quincy.
One of the quickest routes to the Camp is to pass through Quincy.
From the camp, Reno/Nevada would seem like a quick escape route after leaving Tina behind.
I don't think I would stay in California if I had just killed half of a family in their own home and abducted someone.
I think if it were me, I would probably jump state and work on getting far away from California.

Someone was comfortable in the woods.
There are plenty of main roads to go around, but they went into the heart of the park/woods.
Someone was comfortable around a prison/inmates/chance of LEOs.
Someone was okay with potential for nosey Park Rangers.
Did they tell Tina what to say if they were stopped/asked?

I have questions for anyone familiar with Nevada laws, Oregon laws and California laws pre 1980.

How much do we know about Tina's sexual abusers? People in their circles/periphery?

How much do we know about inmates paroled or released from Ishi Conservation Camp 18 programs? Were any from Quincy/Keddie or have family/friends there? Did any work programs take them near or into Quincy/Keddie?

 

[Boniesli]

Wow, interesting find regarding Camp 18. I wasn't aware of that. I don't know much about Camp 18 except it is a big clue in this case. Whoever is responsible is familiar with that area. I do know it is very remote and according to locals a lot of those back roads were unpaved at the time and difficult to maneuver at that time of year. I had heard it was a logging area and used for hunting as well (PCOS requested records of any deer kills within that area).

In regards to Tina's past perpetrators, one was her father. Sue was separated from him at the time. Authorities checked him out, he was on the other side of the country active in the Navy. The other was a man who lived in the trailer park the Sharpes lived in when they first moved to Quincy. There was a police report filed over the incident. She also had a special education teacher that showed inappropriate interest in her. He became a registered sex offender later on. There appears to be quite a few other pedophiles in the area as well, including the assistant sheriff at the time.

 

[Radaghest]

Wow, interesting find regarding Camp 18. I wasn't aware of that. I don't know much about Camp 18 except it is a big clue in this case. Whoever is responsible is familiar with that area. I do know it is very remote and according to locals a lot of those back roads were unpaved at the time and difficult to maneuver at that time of year. I had heard it was a logging area and used for hunting as well (PCOS requested records of any deer kills within that area).

In regards to Tina's past perpetrators, one was her father. Sue was separated from him at the time. Authorities checked him out, he was on the other side of the country active in the Navy. The other was a man who lived in the trailer park the Sharpes lived in when they first moved to Quincy. There was a police report filed over the incident. She also had a special education teacher that showed inappropriate interest in her. He became a registered sex offender later on. There appears to be quite a few other pedophiles in the area as well, including the assistant sheriff at the time.

Even if he's shady, I don't think dad was the primary perp.
If he was involved, he would have taken the kids (all, alive) or tried to or someone try to. There would probably have been instructions to take all kids alive.

Makes sense for there to be a high pop of sex offenders in the area near a prison.
I'm sure some were paroled/released. from that very work camp and its programs.
Camp 18 also houses one of Calis only gas death chambers - so, they house death row inmates.
I don't think a car was used to get to the park/woods/camp.
I think it was more than likely an on foot trek, or something similar once they got into the camp area.
Maybe utilizing some hitch hiking but that would be a big risk of detection.
Depends on how bold the perpetrator is when he/she.thinks they are on the verge of being discovered.

Did any park rangers live near Quincy/Kiddie?
When did the park become a national forest?
I can not find this on their website.
Hunting is usually not allowed in some National Forests.
Plumas does allow Firewood/Tree Cutting permits.
When did they start that permit program?

Ishi Camp 18 website: Ishi Conservation Camp #18 - Inmate101

Plumas Forest website: Plumas National Forest - About the Forest

I am going to start data collection for sex offenders known in the area at the time.
Ill need help with names/ideas like you mentioned above.
Ill try to find background on them if possible in public records.
Ill try some random common last names searches on Ishi Camp 18 inmate lookup to see what type of offenders they house currently.
That may give hints as to their historical trend of types of inmates they would have housed.

Anyone with deeper knowledge on Ishi Correctional Camp 18 please speak up.
Anyone know anyone that was housed there?
Don't need their name, just need to know what type of offenders might be housed there around the seventies to see if my hunches might hold water.

 

[Boniesli]

I will see if I can find out any of the info you are looking for. Deer hunting in the area is mentioned here:

6-20-84, I assigned Deputy R. Day to contact the Fish and Game Dept. to obtain location of deer kills in the Feather Falls area by hunters in the years 1974 through 1981. Purpose is to obtain a list of persons who would be familiar with that area from a prior visit. The area where Tina was found was a site called "Camp 18" which is a remote deer hunting area several miles above (North) of Feather Falls. USFS map coordinates are R7E, T21N, sec 35.l

 

[Radaghest]

I will see if I can find out any of the info you are looking for. Deer hunting in the area is mentioned here:

6-20-84, I assigned Deputy R. Day to contact the Fish and Game Dept. to obtain location of deer kills in the Feather Falls area by hunters in the years 1974 through 1981. Purpose is to obtain a list of persons who would be familiar with that area from a prior visit. The area where Tina was found was a site called "Camp 18" which is a remote deer hunting area several miles above (North) of Feather Falls. USFS map coordinates are R7E, T21N, sec 35.l

LOL I love how they conveniently leave out the fact that Camp 18 is actually the area of a correctional facility/prison....and has been since April 1961!!!

 

[Betty P]

Anyway, its obvious to me Tina was the "trophy" of this crime.
She was the only one removed and taken with the perpetrator.
Why else risk a potentially cranky/scared/wanting to escape child that would pose a high risk of recognition/escape/screaming and leading to arrest?
Eventually most captives are going to think at some point about some attempt at escape sooner or later.
Killing Sue and the two boys was just one task to get to the point of leaving with Tina.
Death of Tina had to be something that resulted in damage to soft tissues since I'm hearing the bones (including hyoid ) show no clues.
So, were looking at stabbing without hitting bone (maybe abdominal/slit throat), strangulation without hyoid damage (maybe ligature), drugs/alcohol/ other chemical, or other health wise (infection/illness/exposure to elements/starvation).
Some of these are up close and intimate methods.
Methods of someone who felt a personal connection to Tina.
I think Justin certainly is involved more than he is telling...he knew the killer/s and had a reason not to run screaming.
I think Dana was more involved more than is known (hence feet are tied hastily after death to make it appear he was a target, but his hands are still free - I think he was not tied during the killing for SOME "GOOD" REASON).
I think the events in the cabin leading to the murders involved some scenario about Tina.
And then Tina was gone/taken/left with the/one of perpetrator/s.
We know the perpetrator/s had a knife.
So, I think statistically its likely Tina was stabbed when she angered/frustrated her captor in some way.
A person this easy to anger to vicious rage might also have potentially strangled her if we follow the train of thought that Tina was an unwilling captive.

I also have thoughts regarding the scenario of Tina being a willing captive. I'm open to all scenarios in this rabbit hole.
Could she have overdosed on drugs/alcohol when with the perpetrator/s and then her body left? Seems like something a curious 12/13 year old might bumble into....or been dosed to keep her sedated/quiet.

Sue potentially knew/knew of the killer/s.
Justin probably knew the killer/s.
Dana probably knew the killers/s.
I think Tina definitely knew the killer/s somehow. Even if it was just being spoken to once or twice in passing.
Even if the suspects didn't live in the cabin neighborhood, they were familiar with the cabin to know they lived there. Maybe familiar enough to know they never locked their doors.

But, I feel that whoever it is, they felt comfortable/brave enough to enter a residence full of people for some purpose involving one of the kids.

I don't think the boys or drugs were the primary motivation in any way.
The boys (excluding Justin) were expendable.
If Sue were the primary motivation....no reason to take Tina (unless her father were involved, and then why not take the other kids as well?)

So, WHO BENEFITS from taking Tina?
I don't see Marty/Bo/Marilyn having any obvious benefit from taking her....if you can change my mind I'm open to that.

(Benefits could potentially be: money?, sex?, platonic companionship?, seen as "rescuing" Tina?)
Who would benefit from taking Tina and not Sue or the other kids?

If you go back a few years in this thread, you'll find a case analysis done by one of our WS members who is retired law enforcement. He also thought the taking of Tina was significant and that Tina might possibly have been tricked into trusting an older male outside of her family who wanted to harm her. I'll try to find it, but it was an interesting analysis.

JMO, it doesn't change the theory of who the suspects were in these murders, but it puts a different slant on the motive.

 

[Boniesli]

Yes, I read his case analysis a few years ago and thought it was excellent! And he did come to the same conclusion as John Douglas. If you happen to come across it easily please repost it, I'd like to read it again. And thanks!

 

[Radaghest]

If you go back a few years in this thread, you'll find a case analysis done by one of our WS members who is retired law enforcement. He also thought the taking of Tina was significant and that Tina might possibly have been tricked into trusting an older male outside of her family who wanted to harm her. I'll try to find it, but it was an interesting analysis.

JMO, it doesn't change the theory of who the suspects were in these murders, but it puts a different slant on the motive.

Well, that's where we can agree to disagree.
I don't like the popular suspects...if you mean those three.
I think its time someone somewhere looked outside some boxes.

 

[Betty P]

Wow, interesting find regarding Camp 18. I wasn't aware of that. I don't know much about Camp 18 except it is a big clue in this case. Whoever is responsible is familiar with that area. I do know it is very remote and according to locals a lot of those back roads were unpaved at the time and difficult to maneuver at that time of year. I had heard it was a logging area and used for hunting as well (PCOS requested records of any deer kills within that area).

In regards to Tina's past perpetrators, one was her father. Sue was separated from him at the time. Authorities checked him out, he was on the other side of the country active in the Navy. The other was a man who lived in the trailer park the Sharpes lived in when they first moved to Quincy. There was a police report filed over the incident. She also had a special education teacher that showed inappropriate interest in her. He became a registered sex offender later on. There appears to be quite a few other pedophiles in the area as well, including the assistant sheriff at the time.

This is interesting information, but we need some links. The teacher has been discussed (and linked) here before. Have not seen any links regarding allegations of pedophilia by the assistant sheriff. TIA.

If people feel the Camp 18 place is a possible lead, please see if you can post a link to a map, etc. It would be helpful. TIA

 

[Betty P]

Well, that's where we can agree to disagree.
I don't like the popular suspects...if you mean those three.
I think its time someone somewhere looked outside some boxes.

At the time we discussed the usual suspects as well as the teacher who was questioned. I'm open to consider others, but we need some links for any evidence or case information.

Other points brought up by Kell was the odd assortment of weapons and bindings used at the crime scene. It appears some of what what used came from the scene of the crime. That usually indicates the killer(s) didn't originally come with the intention to kill someone. Even in the case of an anonymous killer stopping by, it would be unusual for someone to choose to attack where so many people were present in the home with others close by. That said, stranger multiple murders have happened. Anything is possible.