Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #11

[LoisLane]

Regarding the feet that washed up together, the fact that they washed up in the same spot is really odd. Were they attached to each other, or was it coincidence? Feet in running shoes have washed up on the Canadian West Coast, and identification can be attributed to the fact that the only reason anything is known is because a foot washed up. Connections have been made with a plane that crashed into the water. but the family rejects the results.

The water is cold. We have read that over and over again in the context of the girls falling into the roaring mountain stream. Does a roaring mountain stream, or raging river, over smooth rocks cause pelvic bones to break? Let's suppose that they fell into the raging river. The were on the banks in a curve on the river ... and then the river raged again. Does that happen in the rainforest?

I mentioned this case to my elderly mom this evening, about the two Dutch girls that couldn't figure out direction because they were born in Flatland. I mentioned direction, sunset hour, and common sense. My mom immediately said that the tree canopy in the Rainforest could cause confusion with direction. I think that could have happened with the girls, but only if the sun ... could someone post the sun position again ... with all the colours to show direction?

What on earth is this about?

 

[Sillybilly]

What on earth is this about?

Otto's got the wrong thread. Happens at times.

 

[LoisLane]

Otto's got the wrong thread. Happens at times.

Phew! I thought I had some kind of code to crack...lol. That is pretty deep Otto!

 

[otto]

I can understand your sentiment but he still should be presumed innocent by law , on the over hand, I think that if NO"dad could somehow get his hands on DG, I could not blame him for forcing DG to talk if he held a very strong conviction that DG was the perpetrator.
My view on DG is that he knows the system, and he will denied, their a small chance of him getting off if they cannot find the bodies, and if a good lawyer can challenge the evidences. I do see a conviction , mostly because of the speedy arrest and the family connection.
In answer to Kristine. Forgot to post the quote.

He is presumed innocent ... nothing about "should be".

Could you please provide links.

 

[otto]

Phew! I thought I had some kind of code to crack...lol. That is pretty deep Otto!

sillybilly: "Otto's got the wrong thread. Happens at times."

I did have it all wrong, posting about a Panama disappearance on a Calgary disappearance thread.

 

[winnnancy]

sillybilly: "Otto's got the wrong thread. Happens at times."

I did have it all wrong, posting about a Panama disappearance on a Calgary disappearance thread.

Lol, I'll just bet those Panamanians are scratching their heads over the Calgary missing persons ...

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry, I can't keep up with all of the posts, can someone post a link to the discussion/info regarding LE's search of the Agriculture Canada site? TY!

I agree. It does seem like the search stopped completely after they searched around there. I still think they would have released a statement if bodies or parts of bodies were found though.

 

[deugirtni]

An extremely principled man.. who stole and used a dead child's identity for years, accepted jobs offered based on false credentials, manufactured illegal substances, evaded for years his capture by LE to avoid taking responsibility for crimes he was convicted of, .. was there anything else this principled man had on his record? Does it really make sense that one would expect others to have principles, ethics, morals, while not being held to the same standards himself?

I think DG viewed KL and AL as one in the same. It's a lame comparison and comes back to extreme principal (on DG's part), much like the kevin spacey character giving his speech in the car ride at the end of the movie se7en. I would like to believe NO is at a safe house or alive but think that DG just couldn't figure out the snafu of his plan and murdered NO.

 

[studyer]

Regarding Motive

I still think that the biggest complaint that the accused had against the victim is that he took from others, and planned to sail into the sunset ... leaving everyone to pick up the pieces.

note: "took from others" means that he declared bankruptcy twice rather than repay debt

Do you mean that DG was revenging others (not only himself) who had been creditors of AL in the past? This doesn't make sense given his history of various cheating/fraudulent behaviours towards others which imply that, first, he doesn't feel morally accountable to others and second, that he himself knows a few means to 'sail into the sunset' too, so why begrudge someone who he thinks is doing this (and why not just do the same himself). If the debt could be linked specifically from DG to AL then this would make more sense. All just IMO.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

An extremely principled man.. who stole and used a dead child's identity for years, accepted jobs offered based on false credentials, manufactured illegal substances, evaded for years his capture by LE to avoid taking responsibility for crimes he was convicted of, .. was there anything else this principled man had on his record? Does it really make sense that one would expect others to have principles, ethics, morals, while not being held to the same standards himself?

I don't think DG has the 'normal' morals or principals that most of us in society have and follow. I'm sure he's a socio/psychopath and I think he has his own warped sense of principal and felt how dare AL and KL be who they are and do what they do ('apparently' being happy, presumably successful, financially well-off people). I said earlier, that sadly, I think he felt just in 'his cause', which again would only be his warped perception of his justice.

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't think DG has the 'normal' morals or principals that most of us in society have and follow. I'm sure he's a socio/psychopath and I think he has his own warped sense of principal and felt how dare AL and KL be who they are and do what they do ('apparently' being happy, presumably successful, financially well-off people). I said earlier, that sadly, I think he felt just in 'his cause', which again would only be his warped perception of his justice.

ITA .. perps are full of self-justification for their crimes and they are always "the victim". I know of a case where a creep (who could probably out-quote any of us on The Good Book) molested a 2 1/2 year old child. His explanation to the judge? "The mother used to let the child run around naked".

They are "principled" in their own way.

 

[Cattools]

ITA .. perps are full of self-justification for their crimes and they are always "the victim". I know of a case where a creep (who could probably out-quote any of us on The Good Book) molested a 2 1/2 year old child. His explanation to the judge? "The mother used to let the child run around naked".

They are "principled" in their own way.

They must justify their behaviour. I agree he is a psychopath and doesn't operate according to the same principles and morals that the rest of us do.

 

[julydarling]

I've been thinking about the different theories on motive that are coming up. I just can't see DG being vengeful on behalf of others. He's clearly a loner, not a fan of people and he would kill for others (although he himself is included). I haven't got much basis for this judgement, but I believe he is insanely selfish. His problems are bigger than everyone elses, he is smarter, faster, stronger etc. If he is the person who did it, he did it for his own selfish reasons. There's nothing about this guy that screams "avenger" to me

I strongly believe that he was stalking AL/KL prior to these crimes. If AL and DG didn't have contact for many years, how did he find out about the move? If PG for some reason had mentioned the impending move to DG (side note: Why, though? It seems like a really obscure conversation to have about someone you don't know well.) he would need to find out more about them - layout of the house, habits etc in order to "successfully" commit this crime. He would need to prepare.
I feel like there is more of a relationship between AL and DG than we are aware of. If he was so burned up about the patent thing, why would it all come to a head 7 years later? Why would he strike before the move to Edmonton? Wouldn't that be an even greater way to do this? Wait til they're in a new city, without the community they've been a part of for so long. Its not a very far drive to Edmonton from Airdrie

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I've been thinking about the different theories on motive that are coming up. I just can't see DG being vengeful on behalf of others. He's clearly a loner, not a fan of people and he would kill for others (although he himself is included). I haven't got much basis for this judgement, but I believe he is insanely selfish. His problems are bigger than everyone elses, he is smarter, faster, stronger etc. If he is the person who did it, he did it for his own selfish reasons. There's nothing about this guy that screams "avenger" to me

I strongly believe that he was stalking AL/KL prior to these crimes. If AL and DG didn't have contact for many years, how did he find out about the move? If PG for some reason had mentioned the impending move to DG (side note: Why, though? It seems like a really obscure conversation to have about someone you don't know well.) he would need to find out more about them - layout of the house, habits etc in order to "successfully" commit this crime. He would need to prepare.
I feel like there is more of a relationship between AL and DG than we are aware of. If he was so burned up about the patent thing, why would it all come to a head 7 years later? Why would he strike before the move to Edmonton? Wouldn't that be an even greater way to do this? Wait til they're in a new city, without the community they've been a part of for so long. Its not a very far drive to Edmonton from Airdrie

Agree, I don't think he's a principled avenger or killed for others at all, but I do think he is what you say - a selfish man with a skewed sense of grandiosity for himself. He probably did stalk them and probably obsessed over his thoughts towards them. I also agree with what you say of a relationship between AL and DG that probably stems into more things us public don't know about. I still think this crime is more of a personal vendetta about behaviors and actions rather than losing money.

I think he didn't wait until they went to Edmonton, because Airdrie is his backyard and he knows the area like the back of his hand. Familiarity is rampant with this crime, and I feel like the bodies are also somewhere very familiar to him (and him only perhaps) but that's JMO.

 

[deugirtni]

Even so, just having that account would prompt additional mailings and junk mail under the same name to the street address.

Maybe he opted for e-billing? Hence no mailed statement.

 

[julydarling]

Agree, I don't think he's a principled avenger or killed for others at all, but I do think he is what you say - a selfish man with a skewed sense of grandiosity for himself. He probably did stalk them and probably obsessed over his thoughts towards them. I also agree with what you say of a relationship between AL and DG that probably stems into more things us public don't know about. I still think this crime is more of a personal vendetta about behaviors and actions rather than losing money.

I think he didn't wait until they went to Edmonton, because Airdrie is his backyard and he knows the area like the back of his hand. Familiarity is rampant with this crime, and I feel like the bodies are also somewhere very familiar to him (and him only perhaps) but that's JMO.

Good point about the bodies and his own backyard. I would love to know what this guy spent his time doing (aside from making meth and farming).
Where did he go? No one has really come forward and said anything about him so im assuming he spent time with virtually no one.

 

[Cattools]

Do you mean that DG was revenging others (not only himself) who had been creditors of AL in the past? This doesn't make sense given his history of various cheating/fraudulent behaviours towards others which imply that, first, he doesn't feel morally accountable to others and second, that he himself knows a few means to 'sail into the sunset' too, so why begrudge someone who he thinks is doing this (and why not just do the same himself). If the debt could be linked specifically from DG to AL then this would make more sense. All just IMO.

If he is a psychopath, he is acting only in his own interest. Other people are objects to him and he wouldn't care about avenging wrongs done to them. And if he is grandiose and narcissistic then it could be a slight he felt. Like he felt AL pulled the wool over his eyes in one way or another, made a fool of him in one way or another.

 

[news.talk]

I've been thinking about the different theories on motive that are coming up. I just can't see DG being vengeful on behalf of others. He's clearly a loner, not a fan of people and he would kill for others (although he himself is included). I haven't got much basis for this judgement, but I believe he is insanely selfish. His problems are bigger than everyone elses, he is smarter, faster, stronger etc. If he is the person who did it, he did it for his own selfish reasons. There's nothing about this guy that screams "avenger" to me

I strongly believe that he was stalking AL/KL prior to these crimes. If AL and DG didn't have contact for many years, how did he find out about the move? If PG for some reason had mentioned the impending move to DG (side note: Why, though? It seems like a really obscure conversation to have about someone you don't know well.) he would need to find out more about them - layout of the house, habits etc in order to "successfully" commit this crime. He would need to prepare.
I feel like there is more of a relationship between AL and DG than we are aware of. If he was so burned up about the patent thing, why would it all come to a head 7 years later? Why would he strike before the move to Edmonton? Wouldn't that be an even greater way to do this? Wait til they're in a new city, without the community they've been a part of for so long. Its not a very far drive to Edmonton from Airdrie

I theorize, that the estate sale was the catalyst and partial motive. It's possible he saw the kijiji ad or heard about it from family. I believe he waited till the end of the sale in an attempt to gain some money and/or shift suspicion for the murders on to a person that attended the sale - robbery gone bad... Or, he wanted it to look like AL killed his wife and skipped the country... Maybe that was his revenge - Make AL out to be a murderer.

In any event... I think it was the estate sale that set the wheels in motion.

 

[Krystine]

I have wondered if it could have been something aside from the patent issue, but have_no_ evidence.

There were ten years between DG and AL, perhaps they knew one another early in life, perhaps it was a bullying or abusive relationship way out of the past that DG could not reconcile. As someone who was bullied in my too tall, awkward, ugly duckling years, I can say that you never quite get past the power those people had over you in your formative years. I can imagine how those memories could haunt someone with mental instability, a loner with social issues. Maybe being bulled early in life created the profile
I can't tell you what a great relief it was when I heard my 5' tall male bully from long ago had passed away ( of natural causes).
We have no way of knowing what one person's true motivation for the things they do are, and in many cases we might be quite surprised.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Good point about the bodies and his own backyard. I would love to know what this guy spent his time doing (aside from making meth and farming).
Where did he go? No one has really come forward and said anything about him so im assuming he spent time with virtually no one.

My thoughts exactly….I've said it once and I'll say it again, I just don't believe after his return from Vancouver to Alberta in 2000 that he's spent the last 14 years living a 'quiet and simple farm life'. He had to have been up to something all these years. I'm sure we'll find it out all before, during and after trial. I'm sure his companies are fronts for some major type of illegal buying, selling, importing/exporting or moving of stuff, I still don't think he was making drugs, but he had his hand in some pies.