Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #12

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IMO good housekeeping activities on Kijiji by any family member during this tragedy seems strange to me. I don't think I would be able to look at anything related to that weekend at all...would just let the ads run out. Aren't they only good for 30 days? They should be done by now. JMO but seems odd they'ld be still trying to sell stuff.

We don't know how the family is grieving, but apparently anything is possible. Some people might grieve like Scott Peterson ... hit the bars and the teenage babysitters, others might hit the party scene and party hard through Stampede (July 4-13), and yet others might feel the isolatory deep loss of a loved one.

The good housekeeping activities have surprised me. I think that the ads, such as the main living room sofa and dining sets, were put on kijiji at the same time as all the other furniture. I can't imagine that the couple wanted to empty their main living room furniture before the family room furniture. I think the ads were put up at the same time, and half of them have come down ... but not the webmarketing business. That's still for sale ... but that is a template, not a service. The office and family room furniture is still for sale, the living room and dining room furniture is no longer for sale.

I noticed that the recliner is now in the same photo set as the green leather furniture.

Public online ads: http://www.kijiji.ca/o-posters-other-ads/56563739

The family requested money, in part, for putting those house contents in storage, presumably until the six children are emotionally prepared to divide the estate house contents. I would assume that the furniture from the murder scene was put in storage because the family has some sentimental connection with the furniture ... so perhaps it's simply an oversight that someone is still advertising to sell house contents from a murder scene at a time when half of the ads have been removed.
 
It was touched on when it was reported the accused went on suicide watch. A single, set in his ways loner who has had the luxury of privacy on the home farm, and the freedom to do as he pleases would find the confines and chaos of prison extremely uncomfortable. It would offend his delicate sensibilities to be incarcerated and thrown in with other rowdy, noisy, annoying types.
By now, he has already had a good taste of what the rest of his life might be like behind bars.
If he is now co-operating, it could have a lot to do with 'quality of life' issues.
JMO

Just throwing this out there...but maybe they put him on suicide watch to keep him out of the general population...IMO, he probably wouldn't be safe with the others. Also, IMO, he wouldn't be safe outside of the Remand either, it seems the general consensus of the public is outrage...I have no doubt someone would take matters into their own hands...maybe?
 
Thanks.

I'm not so sure about the "not so typical" comment about LE visiting inmates.

Send in Det.Sgt Jim Smyth.

JMO

In Canada, there is no law that states that a suspect can have a lawyer present during questioning.
 
Just throwing this out there...but maybe they put him on suicide watch to keep him out of the general population...IMO, he probably wouldn't be safe with the others. Also, IMO, he wouldn't be safe outside of the Remand either, it seems the general consensus of the public is outrage...I have no doubt someone would take matters into their own hands...maybe?
That is called protective custody, not suicide watch.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...4QFjAC&usg=AFQjCNFzZljhiFYRstmzI6LVCWSDezmVrA
 
Just throwing this out there...but maybe they put him on suicide watch to keep him out of the general population...IMO, he probably wouldn't be safe with the others. Also, IMO, he wouldn't be safe outside of the Remand either, it seems the general consensus of the public is outrage...I have no doubt someone would take matters into their own hands...maybe?

Why would anyone care about why he is in jail? If they did care, the bottom line is that he's a mass murderer. There's probably some status associated with that. Who is going to do anything? All he has to tell a potential threat is that the couple he murdered were thieves (in his perception of reality), and I don't think anyone will question what he did. Furthermore, his other conviction is for meth cooking, which is also not a shameful industry amongst a prison population.
 
IMO...that whole "served concurrently" thing is all wrong. If a person is guilty of 3 deaths, then they should serve for each one separately...how does doing time for all of them at once make sense? Our justice system sure has some lenient ways about it. I don't believe in Capital Punishment, but geez...at least you should have to pay for each life you take....a 3-for-1 deal just isn't right. JMO.

Served concurrently is deeply embedded in the Canadian Justice system. After a crime is committed, the question is whether to rehabilitate or punish the accused. Concurrently presupposes rehabilitation. That is, after 25 years in prison, if it is productive time, that first degree murder conviction prisoner can be re-assimilated into society and will be eligible for parole. If there is no hope of rehabilitation, such as diminished mental ability, there will not be parole.

The US justice system is about punishment. First degree murder results either in life in prison or a death penalty. There is no hope for first degree convicts in the US because it is about punishment rather than rehabilitation. Sentences served concurrently is not a bad thing. If the accused is indeed guilty, and is able to sort out why he committed mass murder in the next 25 years, then perhaps that person should have another chance at life. Amanda Knox is a good example of the rehabilitation sentence where she was allowed to participate in some activities that were part of normal day to day activities for people that were not in prison. She participated in prison rehabilitation.

Back to the accused ... he can make a deal for 25 years concurrent sentences and reveal the location of the bodies. Presumably the six children will see the wisdom in finding the bodies over punishment ... meaning, make the deal and learn now what happened to their remains. There have been two or three hail storms in the area since the murders. Hopefully there's something left.

There is another mass murderer in Calgary: university student slaughtered five friends at end of year party. Whatever works for one case of "fitness" might have to work for the other. That is, whatever applies to the 22 year old that committed mass murder should also apply to this mass murderer ... if one gets 25 years and rehab without medication to control disturbed thinking, then Garland should get the same deal ... even if he doesn't reveal the location of the bodies.

Is he nuts, can he be rehabilitated, or should he be punished for murdering two extended family members and their five year old grandson? He should be punished, but what is more important: punishment or finding the remains? If finding the remains is more important, then it would be a good idea to make the deal, find the remains, and revisit parole eligibility in 25 years.
 
His only bargaining chip is revealing the location of the remains of the three victims. Russell Williams is a serial killer, and he is eligible for parole after 25 years ... although that doesn't mean it will happen. The accused is facing mass murder charges. I think he could negotiate a deal whereby he is eligible for parole after 25 years in exchange for a guilty plea and information about the location of the remains.

It don't think it would be detectives visiting to arrange a plea deal.

His possible bargaining chips could also come from the motive end. If any of the business deals, endless short lived companies, or accomplices were involved, then there would be more to discuss.
 
I do not believe that the charges will be reduced from first degree to second degree. First degree for the two planned murders, second degree for Nathan, served concurrently means that he is eligible for parole in 25 years. 25 year and parole eligibility is standard for first degree murder convictions.

Sentences for multiple murders can now be accumulated consecutively.

http://crcvc.ca/docs/consecutive-sentencing-2012.pdf
 
It don't think it would be detectives visiting to arrange a plea deal.

His possible bargaining chips could also come from the motive end. If any of the business deals, endless short lived companies, or accomplices were involved, then there would be more to discuss.
Your absolutely correct - It would be the Crown Prosecutor in conjunction with Defense Council who would be making any deals.

In my experience, what detectives typically do, is conduct post-arrest interviews in an attempt to solicit more information. Defense Council may or may not be present and the suspect may choose to speak or remain silent. It is in the best interest of the case for them to continue to attempt to engage the suspect up until a plea is entered at the preliminary hearing.
 
Why would anyone care about why he is in jail? If they did care, the bottom line is that he's a mass murderer. There's probably some status associated with that. Who is going to do anything? All he has to tell a potential threat is that the couple he murdered were thieves (in his perception of reality), and I don't think anyone will question what he did. Furthermore, his other conviction is for meth cooking, which is also not a shameful industry amongst a prison population.

Oh, but being a rapist or a child killer is something that is not cool with the other inmates, that's very well known. Common knowledge is that these inmates are targeted by other inmates. They don't accept those types amongst themselves, from what I've heard.
 
Oh, but being a rapist or a child killer is something that is not cool with the other inmates, that's very well known. Common knowledge is that these inmates are targeted by other inmates. They don't accept those types amongst themselves, from what I've heard.
Link please.
 
Here is something I found on prison culture... Hierarchy.

http://web4.uwindsor.ca/users/s/soulli6/main.nsf/9d019077a3c4f6768525698a00593654/255e75720be1221985256bcf00508f4d/$FILE/DoingTime.doc


DOING TIME: THE PRISON EXPERIENCE
Prisonization

Chuck Terry (2003, p. 99) writes about adapting to the prison culture:

In the Los Angeles County jail, we washed our clothes in toilets because they contained the best source of running water. We made wine out of water, fruit, sugar, and yeast. We drank hot chocolate brewed by mixing melted Hershey bars and water. Using matchlit, tightly rolled toilet paper as fuel, we cooked grilled cheese sandwiches on the steel slabs we slept on. We also gambled, bought and sold cigarettes and candy bars for profit, and did everything we could to obtain drugs whenever possible. As I become more comfortable in jail, my fear and anxiety about living among the “rabble” of society became almost nonexistent. Over time, what once seemed like the caverns of hell became more like home.

Source: J.I. Ross & S.C. Richards. (2003). Convict Criminology. Belmont, CA: Wadsworth/ Thomson Learning.


Barry: “(Some cons) - they’re really institutionalized, they’ll be back. It’s like a big family, they’re always coming back. They go out for a while, experience the street, and then come back scared: I couldn’t make it so I ****ed up again and came back to three square meals a day.” (p. 48)

Source: P.J. Murphy & L. Johnsen. (1997). Life-25. Vancouver, BC: New Star Books.


Prison/Inmate Code

Melnitzer (1995, p. 117) highlights the existence and relative strength of the Prison Code in Canadian prisons:

After encountering an angry younger fellow inmate while serving up breakfast, a verbal exchange occurs in which the inmate calls Melnitzer a “goof” and challenges him to fight later in the yard. Another inmate explains to Melnitzer his obligations based on a strict adherence to the Code.

“What happens now?” Melnitzer asks.

“No choice,” chimes Fred, the grill man and self-professed keeper of the Code. “A guy calls you a goof, you kill him or he kills you.”

Three fellow inmates decide that the younger inmate needs to be taken care of based on an assessment of lack of respect.

“The kid’s got no respect for us,” says one of the prison veterans.

Melnitzer writes: “Respect” is a magic word in prison, ringing a bell with the other old cons in the kitchen, particularly Fred – though his interpretation of the Code wavered with the exigencies of the day.


Melnitzer (1995, p. 118-119) also emphasizes the influence of the Code on many prisoners, describing the case of one prisoner who refused to implicate his drug-trafficking cellmate when drugs were found in their cell. As a result, the prisoner, despite having no history of substance abuse and having been a model inmate for five years of 20-year sentence, was denied a temporary absence pass by the NPB, his wife subsequently left him, and his children essentially stopped visiting him. When asked if it was worth it, the prisoner simply responded that the Code demanded that you don’t “rat out” fellow inmates.

Source: J. Melnitzer. (1995). Maximum, Minimum, Medium. Toronto, ON: Key Porter Books.

Caron (1985, p. 58) talks about the Inmate Code in relation to the “Code of Silence” expected:

“But prison walls rarely disclose their secrets. The code of silence was so strictly enforced that any individual who infringed on it was doomed to a macabre death at the hands of his fellow cons.”

Also, Caron emphasizes the way in which the Inmate Code governs social relations within the prison:

“One thing the inmate code demands is absolute deference from the diddlers and stool pigeons.”

Source: R. Caron. (1985). Bingo! Toronto, ON: Methuen.


Prisoner Roles and Prison Status Hierarchy

Anderson (1993, p. 140) emphasizes the rules of social status found within most prisons:

“On the criminal social ladder, those imprisoned for murder and serious crimes, or those who have survived years in the violent world of the penitentiary system, cling to the top rung and are considered the institution’s ‘heavies.’ Much lower on the status ladder are inmates who are serving relatively short sentences or are young and inexperienced in prison. The bottom rung is saved for sex offenders and finks or ‘rats.’ They require protective custody, apart from the general population.

Melnitzer (1995, p. 308, 310) summarizes the prison social hierarchy as follows:

“Cop killers are at the top of the social order, the most solid of criminals, followed by lifers whose crimes do not involved women or children; then armed robbers, drug dealers, and other violent non-sexual offenders. Property offenders and white-collar criminals are a class of their own, their standing determined by the nature of the offence: stealing from banks is solid, very solid; stealing from small investors, “widows and children and friends”, is not…Hounds and diddlers are never solid: as PCs, they are perceived as rats, beholden to the Man to protect them…Prison’s fine social order goes on to divide hounds and diddlers into sub-classes. Hounds are condemned relatively to the social status of their victims…Diddlers rate inversely to the age of their victims: the younger the victim, the more reprehensible the perpetrator...Clifford Olson occupies the bottom rung by himself.”

Melnitizer further explains why the hierarchy exists:

“Low on self-esteem, tossed out of society, cons create a ladder so that they have somebody to look down upon.”

Source: J. Melnitzer. (1995). Maximum, Minimum, Medium. Toronto, ON: Key Porter Books.


Caron (1985, p. 50) also highlights the way in which the prison social hierarchyworks:

“Very quickly the prisoners developed their own brand of justice, labeling and condemning one another in a kind of barnyard pecking order. You just had to stop out of order and a calloused fist would come crashing out of nowhere to put you back in line. Or you might even end up with a homemade shiv between your shoulder blades.”

Source: R. Caron. (1985). Bingo! Toronto, ON: Methuen.

Ria further points out the existence of a status hierarchy in women’s prisons:

“When I was living down on the wing, they wanted to integrate the PCs (protective custody inmates) with us, because in the new joint, in Kitchener, there’s no maxi (maximum security unit) or PC unit. They thought they could bring in Karla Homolka and Turner, the ones that did the nasty things. They thought we could have lunch and integrate them with us so they could get used to being in population…But I told them in the wing, ‘If you bring them down for meals, they’re going to be leaving in body bags.’

How can you integrate them with us? Like Karla Homolka, the ones that are in segregation or protective custody, how can you put them in with us? …As for Karla Homolka, ‘I’ll kill the *****.’ That’s what I told them. I don’t care who you are. You put them in when I’m in. Who wants to eat supper with f---n’ Karla Homolka after what she did to those kids. You know she’s wearing a fork right in the eye.

Source: P. Tadman. (2001). Fallen Angels: Inside Canada’s Toughest Women’s Prison. Calgary, AB: Detselig Enterprises.


Hopper (1990) also discusses the sexual hierarchy found especially in prisons for men:

In prisons for men, homosexual sex is often viewed as a commodity which must be forced, bought, or traded. New inmates have to find their place in the sexual order by developing a sexual identity and establishing a reputation into the prisoner “sex pressure game” which is designed to determine who is weak and who is strong.


Doing Time


Life-25 (1997)

Barry: “I’m trapped in time. Sure, the time’s going to go by. I’m losing fifteen to twenty-five years of my life, but I don’t have to lose that time. I can actually use that time to be productive. I can get all sorts of things accomplished…It’s just a matter of whether I’m going to let myself evolve finally or if I’m going to walk out and try to be a twenty-one-year-old again on the street.

Barry: “I don’t know what doing time does to a person – maybe it mellows them out a bit. Because I find that after this here, I’ve been more of a mellow person. I don’t know what happened to me, or whatever, but all of a sudden I lost all the aggression that’s in me.”


Carlson (1998)

“Today, doing time is like being buried up to the neck in the middle of the street. We can see life flow around us but we can’t get up to take part in it.”


Miceli (2003)

“For some prisoners, the sorrow, pain, loss of freedom, and separation from loved ones, is unbearable. No one wants to spend his life living in fear, or suffer the interminable pain and heartache associated with being incarcerated.”


Jones (2003)

“Doing time” reflects a creative process through which inmates must invent or learn a repertoire of adaptation tactics that address the varying problems they confront during particular phases of their prison careers. (Doing time) is an active effort by prisoners to interpret prison rather than simply a passive response to prison culture and involves an interplay and continuous influence of both the outside world and the prison world.
 
It don't think it would be detectives visiting to arrange a plea deal.

His possible bargaining chips could also come from the motive end. If any of the business deals, endless short lived companies, or accomplices were involved, then there would be more to discuss.

A post upthread stated that his lawyer, Kim Ross, had something to say about his client talking with investigators. If he makes a deal, then he'll meet with the crown to seal the deal. Is there is a deal with the crown?

I can't see this happening without revealing the locations of the remains.
 
A post upthread stated that his lawyer, Kim Ross, had something to say about his client talking with investigators. If he makes a deal, then he'll meet with the crown to seal the deal. Is there is a deal with the crown?

I can't see this happening without revealing the locations of the remains.

Hi! I'm not Canadian, but I live in Calgary and I'm not so sure how the laws here differ from the US.

If DG were to make a deal by telling where the bodies are, for example, does that mean that a trial could possibly be avoided and then there would only be a sentencing?
 
Hi! I'm not Canadian, but I live in Calgary and I'm not so sure how the laws here differ from the US.

If DG were to make a deal by telling where the bodies are, for example, does that mean that a trial could possibly be avoided and then there would only be a sentencing?
He would need to enter into a guilty plea and the Crown can make a recommendation as to sentencing but the final decision would still be up to a Judge
 
On global news just a few minutes ago, they had a brief interview with the accused's lawyer. He has not received any disclosure materials and confirmed that homicide detectives have been to see DG in prison several times over past few weeks. (Reporter in VoiceOver says that such visits are not typical). Also went on to say that police continue to search surrounding areas for evidence and bodies.

So...given the multitude of visits to the accused, I wonder if there's any chance he may plead guilty? (Maybe in exchange for a reduced sentence, he tells them where to find bodies/remains?)


A post upthread stated that his lawyer, Kim Ross, had something to say about his client talking with investigators. If he makes a deal, then he'll meet with the crown to seal the deal. Is there is a deal with the crown?

I can't see this happening without revealing the locations of the remains.

Were I a lawyer, I would not pursue a deal without seeing the evidence first. According to the same upthread post, that hasn't happened yet. The quote says investigators have "gone to see DG"... so that can mean anything from he's cooperating with the investigation, to they're desperate to get something before disclosure, and he's saying nothing. I would think that if DG was responsible, any deals or progress would have produced remains by now.

Here's an interesting article regarding questioning from a defence perspective:

http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/blog/2012/06/what-to-do-when-the-police-want-to-talk-to-you.html
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ace-than-anyone-could-imagine/article4101471/

"...It involved an interview with Guy Paul Morin in 1992. At 25, Mr. Morin had been convicted two months earlier in the sex-slaying of his next-door neighbour, Christine Jessop. The small-town, jack-of-all-trades would eventually be exonerated and freed. But at that point, he faced the rest of his life in KP, where child-killers fare particularly poorly."

Guy Paul Morin is the landmark case for police and prosecutors to know to avoid tunnel vision.
 
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