Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[Cherchri]

We know that Nathan's family was enjoying the four day, Saturday-Tuesday, long weekend because Nathan's mom went to her parent's home at 10AM on Monday. It was a holiday weekend for that family, as well as many other families across the country. We know that bedtime was not strict because the child was not at home at a bedtime of 7 or 8PM, going through his normal bedtime routine on the night of the murder simply because he was not at home.

But he may well have fallen asleep which would explain why his mum left him there I.e. Rather than disturb his sleep she left him with his grandparents.

 

[bullish]

Our farm truck was equipped with a homemade winch. We also always had ramps available.
Something like this in the little video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9PR8c9uUFSw

Or a truck bed ramp. I've seen some commercial ones for quads and I've also seen homemade ones made from wood.

{edit: Oops, I was focused on your mention of winch and overlooked your mention of ramp.}

Early on I was thinking about how the killer might have transported the bodies (I was assuming then they were whole) unseen in a truck bed and thought about plastic drums that are available at certain online vendors. Or very large plastic bags (large enough to go over pallets of crates). I got stumped at the drum scenario because without a winch it would have been difficult to roll the drum with a body in it up the ramp (I thought, anyway) without it rolling back on you, and a winch would have made noise. But dragging a body in a bag or other cover material up a ramp could be done.

Or even hauling the body up on its feet and letting it fall so the weight of the upper body falls on the truck bed (or lowered gate if it had one, can't remember). Then pushing it forward a bit and then lifting the legs in. No need to be careful of causing the body harm - it's of an already deceased person or one whom you're planning to kill shortly anyway.

Another idea, playing off another WS member's idea from a thread or two ago of an office chair being used - wheel the body to the truck, then lift as described above. Even better if it's one of those chairs that can be raised and lowered.

Of course this is all theoretical - I've never tried it in real life.

 

[LawyerMum]

You have to wonder what other images the CCTV revealed of that pick-up during the night. One of the many 'pieces' that fit.

I don't recall seeing a wheelbarrow at the first crime scene, nor in the back of the pickup truck on video surveillance. Therefore, a wheelbarrow was not brought from the Airdrie acreage to the first crime scene ... unless it was left there, but we haven't seen anything that suggests a wheelbarrow was at that crime scene.

 

[Krystine]

Canadian women should have a man throwing competition where they toss 200 pound men into the back of pickup trucks. The smallest woman wins!

WARNING: gruesome discussion

Which part of the limp body is going to be hoisted into the back of the pickup truck first such that it is not necessary to lift the entire 6 foot long 200 pound body.

Keeping in mind that dead people don't bleed, if the limp 200 pound body was dragged and hoisted into a pickup truck, what contributed to 24 feet of washed down drag marks on the sidewalk?

Happy to discuss the math/physics of it ... looking forward to the explanation.

Graphic Warning

Same...I am very interested in this piece of the puzzel.
I agree that a dead body would no longer be be bleeding,
but we can't say for sure there was not blood on the deceased. Possibly a lot of blood, which would prove an additional challenge in transporting.

 

[bullish]

(snip) Keeping in mind that dead people don't bleed... (snip)

I'm not sure that's quite right, otto.

The heart certainly wouldn't be pumping blood after death but if the body has wounds the blood would still ooze out. Depending on the number and severity of wounds, it could still be a substantial blood loss given sufficient time.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I highly doubt an inmate would ever choose to be under suicide watch. Depending on the level of watch they are assessed with, they are often restrained, personal items removed, forced to eat without utensils and monitored at all times.

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/acts-and-regulations/843-cd-eng.shtml

Like I said before, if seclusion is what he wanted, his lawyer could have asked to place him in protective custody.

Thank you for the information regarding the setting of "suicide watch". I had no idea, as I've not had the opportunity to be involved in anything related to the prison system, so I appreciate you sharing the knowledge of your experience. I also didn't realize "protective custody" was something a defendant's lawyer requested, I thought it was something that LE decided. Then DG must truly be suicidal. I suppose that's not so surprising.

 

[LoisLane]

We know that Nathan's family was enjoying the four day, Saturday-Tuesday, long weekend because Nathan's mom went to her parent's home at 10AM on Monday. It was a holiday weekend for that family, as well as many other families across the country. We know that bedtime was not strict because the child was not at home at a bedtime of 7 or 8PM, going through his normal bedtime routine on the night of the murder simply because he was not at home.

I shall clarify my point about bed times, it is not the enforcement of being strict about set times. It is more about the natural rhythm of a child and the needed sleep of the body. Whether a child is camping, sleeping over at relatives, or in a hotel. Typically they fall asleep around the normal bedtime whether at home or not. I would think JO ensured her child was asleep prior to leaving especially after everyone had worked so hard all weekend.

 

[otto]

I shall clarify my point about bed times, it is not the enforcement of being strict about set times. It is more about the natural rhythm of a child and the needed sleep of the body. Whether a child is camping, sleeping over at relatives, or in a hotel. Typically they fall asleep around the normal bedtime whether at home or not. I would think JO ensured her child was asleep prior to leaving especially after everyone had worked so hard all weekend.

Or ... the child was awake and planning to watch a movie with his grandfather at 10PM. We don't know if the child was awake or asleep when his mother left, and we have nothing on which to base an opinion.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Our farm truck was equipped with a homemade winch. We also always had ramps available.
Something like this in the little video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9PR8c9uUFSw

Winches would make a noise when used so I don't believe that was a possibility in Parkhill location.

 

[LoisLane]

Or ... the child was awake and planning to watch a movie with his grandfather at 10PM. We don't know if the child was awake or asleep when his mother left, and we have nothing on which to base an opinion.

That's true, I could also speculate that Nathan was wide awake from watching movies and jumping on the bed but his grandparents fell asleep during the movie. So Nathan could have been wide awake when DG came thru the door or window or garage.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

That's true, I could also speculate that Nathan was wide awake from watching movies and jumping on the bed but his grandparents fell asleep during the movie. So Nathan could have been wide awake when DG came thru the door or window or garage.

Who is to say that JO didn't call NO when she returned home and settled the youngest child down for the night and then called her parents to say a final good night to NO. So many possibilities and scenerios.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Our farm truck was equipped with a homemade winch. We also always had ramps available.
Something like this in the little video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9PR8c9uUFSw

Would that not make noise? No one heard anything remember?

 

[LoisLane]

Who is to say that JO didn't call NO when she returned home and settled the youngest child down for the night and then called her parents to say a final good night to NO. So many possibilities and scenerios.

That would be interesting because if she did that should have been included in the police timeline. JO left the home at 10:00 but spoke with them at around 10:45. I would hope that would have been considered in the timeline to the public.

 

[Cherchri]

I shall clarify my point about bed times, it is not the enforcement of being strict about set times. It is more about the natural rhythm of a child and the needed sleep of the body. Whether a child is camping, sleeping over at relatives, or in a hotel. Typically they fall asleep around the normal bedtime whether at home or not. I would think JO ensured her child was asleep prior to leaving especially after everyone had worked so hard all weekend.

Yes indeed! Routine and the need for 8 - 9 hours sleep. What I was trying to convey and apparently failed to do. Busy little boys get tired and just cave at a certain point. I strongly suspect little NO was tuckered out and asleep before his mum left.

 

[wendiesan]

Global News Calgary
Search for Missing Family continues
http://globalnews.ca/video/1503580/search-for-missing-calgary-family-continues
August 11 2014

This is not an official transcript, and is not connected to any of the participants.
It is a rough draft, and all errors are my own.

Reporter = Nancy Hixt = NH Defence Lawyer = Kim Ross = KR Defence Lawyer = Allen Hepner = AH

KH: Police are into their seventh week of scouring rural fields for the bodies of Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents, Alvin and Kathryn Liknes. Douglas Garland is charged with killing the family, and, Global News has learned, police continue to push the 54 year old for information in the case.

Homicide detectives have been going to see Garland at the Remand Centre on a somewhat regular basis for several weeks now.

KR: My understanding is that the investigation is continuing. And, I know the police have been up a couple of times to see Mr. Garland as part of that continuing process.

KH: Defence lawyer, Kim Ross, won't comment on details of those visits or how he's advised Garland to deal with police. It's an investigative technique that's not unheard of but not that common according to prominent defence lawyer, Allen Hepner.

AH: I've had clients where police have visited my clients more than once. Even after I have been retained. The simple answer is to tell the client not to speak to anyone except me. It happens. It's not that frequent, but it's happened.

KH: Garland has been under constant surveillance after being put on suicide watch in the Remand Centre. He's scheduled to appear in court later this week. What will happen then depends on whether the defence was given the case before the court date.

KR: Well, we're still waiting for disclosure. As we indicated to the court last day, that we put it over to this coming Thursday so we could get disclosure together. I still haven't got anything yet, so I anticipate that will be coming-- forthcoming pretty soon.

KH: The Crown has said they're confident that the case is strong, even without the bodies of Nathan and his grandparents. It's expected large amounts of disclosure will be presented to the defence in the next couple of days.

Nancy Hixt, Global News

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I shall clarify my point about bed times, it is not the enforcement of being strict about set times. It is more about the natural rhythm of a child and the needed sleep of the body. Whether a child is camping, sleeping over at relatives, or in a hotel. Typically they fall asleep around the normal bedtime whether at home or not. I would think JO ensured her child was asleep prior to leaving especially after everyone had worked so hard all weekend.

I don't have any children but a lot of experience with my nieces and nephews from babies. That is a fair statement to make regarding the natural rhythm of a child from my observation. Anytwime we were around them whether camping, Christmas, visits at grandma and grandpa's, our homes, whatever...those were special occasions for those little guys...every visit somewhere other than home was a special occasion...and there were usually some kind of treats..the sugary kind...juice, cookies, ice cream, candy...what have you...at least in my nieces' and nephews' cases, I mean who doesn't like to give a child a treat? Especially grandma and grandpa?! those natural rhythms went out the window and many times at the lake, the adults were fighting to keep their eyes open and those kids were running around the lake lot squeeling and playing, or roasting marshmallows (pure sugar). I'm not sure whether NO was awake or not, and either way, it doesn't really matter much, he was small...easy to pick up, awake or asleep, and he's gone...so bedtimes and possibilities of him being awake or asleep don't seem to be a factor. Even if he was awake, no one heard anything...and, what if he wasn't afraid of DG? It may be that he had seen him before? Maybe Nathan was put in a room and told to stay there, maybe he was locked in the bathroom? Although one would think he would've at least been crying loudly? Hopefully he didn't see what went on with his grandparents, the poor little thing.

 

[otto]

I think that 10PM was the last time that Nathan's mom saw him and spoke to him. If they'd had contact after 10PM, it would have been in the original timeline.

Original Calgary Herald Timeline:

"December 5, 2013: Alvin Liknes sells his Parkhill home to a Calgary lawyer. He continues to live in the home with his wife, Kathryn.

June 11-24: The Liknes family posts various ads on Kijiji during this time, advertising various household items and furniture for sale. The ads mention that the couple is moving and can’t take these items with them. They also advertise an estate sale to be held at the end of the month.

June 27-29: Alvin and Kathryn Liknes hold an estate sale at their house. Signs on the front door say, “come on in!” Dozens of people cycle in and out of the home over weekend. Neighbours who chatted with the couple say they were talking about ‘downsizing’ and moving to Mexico. Cherri Hodgins, a friend of Kathryn Liknes, said the couple bought a condo there and had been planning to move for several months.

Midday, June 29: Five-year-old Nathan O’Brien goes to visit his grandparents with his mother, Jennifer. In the afternoon, neighbour Peter Walton’s grandkids play with Nathan O’Brien in the park behind the Liknes home, while Alvin Liknes looks on from the garage.

10 p.m., June 29: After staying at the house for an unknown amount of time, Jennifer O’Brien leaves her parents’ house, and Nathan stays with his grandparents. It’s the last time anyone sees Nathan or his grandparents.

10 a.m., June 30: Jennifer O’Brien returns to her parents’ house to pick up Nathan. There is no one at the house. She calls police.

Late morning, June 30: Cliff Liknes goes to visit his brother, Alvin, after he didn’t pick up the phone. He quickly realizes something is wrong when he arrives and sees police combing Alvin’s home.

4 p.m., June 30: Police announce they are investigating what they say is the suspicious disappearance of Nathan and his grandparents.

5:30 p.m., June 30: An Amber Alert is issued for the missing trio. The alert prompts numerous calls to police, but no significant leads turn up.

1 p.m. July 1: Nathan O’Brien and his grandparents are still missing. The Amber Alert continues for a second day. Police don’t know where the three missing people are and say they have a ‘big mystery’ on their hands."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Amber+Alert+Timeline+events/9991492/story.html?__federated=1

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I think that 10PM was the last time that Nathan's mom saw him and spoke to him. If they'd had contact after 10PM, it would have been in the original timeline.

Original Calgary Herald Timeline:

"December 5, 2013: Alvin Liknes sells his Parkhill home to a Calgary lawyer. He continues to live in the home with his wife, Kathryn.

June 11-24: The Liknes family posts various ads on Kijiji during this time, advertising various household items and furniture for sale. The ads mention that the couple is moving and can’t take these items with them. They also advertise an estate sale to be held at the end of the month.

June 27-29: Alvin and Kathryn Liknes hold an estate sale at their house. Signs on the front door say, “come on in!” Dozens of people cycle in and out of the home over weekend. Neighbours who chatted with the couple say they were talking about ‘downsizing’ and moving to Mexico. Cherri Hodgins, a friend of Kathryn Liknes, said the couple bought a condo there and had been planning to move for several months.

Midday, June 29: Five-year-old Nathan O’Brien goes to visit his grandparents with his mother, Jennifer. In the afternoon, neighbour Peter Walton’s grandkids play with Nathan O’Brien in the park behind the Liknes home, while Alvin Liknes looks on from the garage.

10 p.m., June 29: After staying at the house for an unknown amount of time, Jennifer O’Brien leaves her parents’ house, and Nathan stays with his grandparents. It’s the last time anyone sees Nathan or his grandparents.

10 a.m., June 30: Jennifer O’Brien returns to her parents’ house to pick up Nathan. There is no one at the house. She calls police.

Late morning, June 30: Cliff Liknes goes to visit his brother, Alvin, after he didn’t pick up the phone. He quickly realizes something is wrong when he arrives and sees police combing Alvin’s home.

4 p.m., June 30: Police announce they are investigating what they say is the suspicious disappearance of Nathan and his grandparents.

5:30 p.m., June 30: An Amber Alert is issued for the missing trio. The alert prompts numerous calls to police, but no significant leads turn up.

1 p.m. July 1: Nathan O’Brien and his grandparents are still missing. The Amber Alert continues for a second day. Police don’t know where the three missing people are and say they have a ‘big mystery’ on their hands."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Amber+Alert+Timeline+events/9991492/story.html?__federated=1

Well, it was a theory/thought and a good one. I guess we don't have to look at that one anymore, as Otto is right, that would very likely have been disclosed by LE.

 

[winnnancy]

How Much Weight Can the Average Man Lift?

"An effective way to evaluate the average's man strength is to look at familiar exercises that work multiple muscle groups. With this in mind, the average untrained man can squat 125 pounds, bench press 135 pounds and deadlift 155 pounds."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/380767-how-much-weight-can-the-average-man-lift/

Let's not forget an important variable- rigour mortis?
A stiff being much easier to pivot.... Than a limp flaccid 200 lbs!
Body fluids pool after death, and secretions drain ....as an experienced ICU nurse that has shrouded many bodies for pickup to the morgue.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Thank you for the information regarding the setting of "suicide watch". I had no idea, as I've not had the opportunity to be involved in anything related to the prison system, so I appreciate you sharing the knowledge of your experience. I also didn't realize "protective custody" was something a defendant's lawyer requested, I thought it was something that LE decided. Then DG must truly be suicidal. I suppose that's not so surprising.

I highly doubt an inmate would ever choose to be under suicide watch. Depending on the level of watch they are assessed with, they are often restrained, personal items removed, forced to eat without utensils and monitored at all times.

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/acts-and-regulations/843-cd-eng.shtml

Like I said before, if seclusion is what he wanted, his lawyer could have asked to place him in protective custody.

Hmmmm...hang on a second here....I read the link regarding the "suicide watch" , and as mentioned...very good information. Couldn't figure out what was bothering me about your response news.talk...you so quickly dismissed the possibility that DG would voluntarily choose to be put on suicide watch. After reading the link, and googling Pinel restraints, although restrictive, seems to me to be infinitely better than hanging out in a cell with God knows who, unless the cells are single...which I have no idea. Anyway, that's not even the point, the point is, if DG is in fact guilty of these murders, is it not possible that he may go for a "Not Criminally Responsible" due to mental health issues plea? We already know he has had problems in the past, ADD and perhaps some other social/behavioural disorders, so why not go for the full-meal deal, the man has nothing to lose! If you were guilty, which would you choose? Psychiatric Facility lockdown or prison? I would choose the Psychiatric Facility myself. Vincent Li of the infamous Greyhound Bus Killer now gets "supervised passes" out of the facility. Can't say that for prison, can we?
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/17/vince-li-greyhound-bus-killer_n_1525555.html