Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #13

[Slebby]

There might have been a good explanation for why the owner of the green truck was in the area.

Yes. For example, the owner of the truck may have made a purchase at the estate sale, and may have witnessed suspicious activity in the area. At first glance, LE may have regarded the truck owner as nothing more than a potential witness.

 

[goodasgold]

There might have been a good explanation for why the owner of the green truck was in the area.

And i am sure DG had one....lol.

 

[goodasgold]

Yes. For example, the owner of the truck may have made a purchase at the estate sale, and may have witnessed suspicious activity in the area. At first glance, LE may have regarded the truck owner as nothing more than a potential witness.

I think LE knew more than just him being a witness. There are more video captures of that truck going by in order for them to say he drove by multiple times. Plus when they did find him, they did not just take him in for questioning, during the questioning they were searching the property like crazy, not normal questioning a witness behavior. Questioning a suspect is what they were doing. JMO

 

[news.talk]

Another thing is why would LE say we are hopeful to find them alive because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Blood is in the house being observed by a ME to see if the three are dead, well i can see them saying they are hopeful to find them alive but they should not have said there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Not blaming LE just confused at their wording. JMO

IMO, any seasoned homicide detective knows EXACTLY what type of crime scene they are viewing. What they can't do, is say with certainty that it is a homicide without forensic verification. Saying that they are "hopeful" is a polite way to calm fears when they have nothing to prove otherwise. They are human too and of course they have hope for the best. Sadly, they no doubt knew that is not the case.

One thing that i have always been curious about is if LE knew from the very beginning it was a possible murder and there was blood in the house (which they must have known to have ME there the first day) why they would just say they are looking for the green truck driver because he may have information. Usually they would say he may be dangerous do not approach or use caution if around him, etc. Not just that this person may have information. They arrived to a murder scene where three people could have died. JMO

They needs to protect their investigation. They can't come out and tell a potential suspect their gameplan.

 

[winnnancy]

Exactly. It is known as Universal Precautions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_precautions

I think this is duo fold. - protect the crime scene and the investigator.
They are not always there on day 1 when things just begin to decompose...

 

[otto]

Show & Tell: Calgary Courts Centre

The four brass doors are from the original courthouse. Now they are art.

The offices and layout can be seen in the elevation map. The South part of the building (left in the elevation) is Provincial Court. The North part of the building (right in the elevation) is Court of Queens Bench. Provincial Court is for traffic tickets and minor offences, Court of Queens Bench is for messy divorces and criminal matters.

No recording devices are allowed in the building. Security to enter the building is similar to airport security. Everything is removed from pockets, etc and scanned.

The court of appeals is across the street from the Calgary Courts Centre. The entrance in the photo is not in use ... entrance is on the other side of the building.

 

[Slebby]

IMO, any seasoned homicide detective knows EXACTLY what type of crime scene they are viewing. What they can't do, is say with certainty that it is a homicide without forensic verification. Saying that they are "hopeful" is a polite way to calm fears when they have nothing to prove otherwise. They are human too and of course they have hope for the best. Sadly, they no doubt knew that is not the case.



They needs to protect their investigation. They can't come out and tell a potential suspect their gameplan.

I agree, plus they only had suspicions. They can't leap to conclusions and give up on other avenues of investigation, not until their suspicions can be supported with further evidence. Until then, let the tips keep coming in, and reveal as little as possible.

 

[otto]

Another thing is why would LE say we are hopeful to find them alive because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Blood is in the house being observed by a ME to see if the three are dead, well i can see them saying they are hopeful to find them alive but they should not have said there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Not blaming LE just confused at their wording. JMO

What I recall is that police said that they were confident that they will find the missing persons, and they were hopeful that they would find them alive. I doubt that police ever said that there was evidence to suggest that they were alive. They stated that there was a "violent incident". I have posted the link several times to provide context to the definition of "violent incident" in the criminal code. In the context of this case, it means an attempted murder, or a homicide. Police also stated that someone was in "medical distress". Both of those statement imply that although there was hope that the missing persons would be found alive, there was also a very good possibility that one or all were homicide victims. Two weeks after the three people vanished, it was confirmed that it was a triple homicide.

 

[otto]

I think LE knew more than just him being a witness. There are more video captures of that truck going by in order for them to say he drove by multiple times. Plus when they did find him, they did not just take him in for questioning, during the questioning they were searching the property like crazy, not normal questioning a witness behavior. Questioning a suspect is what they were doing. JMO

They gave the driver of the green truck the benefit of the doubt and asked him to come forward. I doubt that he did. When they learned who he was, and his relationship to the adult victims, they probably knew that there was something more to the story than "witness". Then, they got warrants and made a plan to swoop down on the Airdrie acreage at 6PM on July 4. They arrested him for false identity, and the rest is history.

 

[Slebby]

What I recall is that police said that they were confident that they will find the missing persons, and they were hopeful that they would find them alive. I doubt that police ever said that there was evidence to suggest that they were alive. They stated that there was a "violent incident". I have posted the link several times to provide context to the definition of "violent incident" in the criminal code. In the context of this case, it means an attempted murder, or a homicide. Police also stated that someone was in "medical distress". Both of those statement imply that although there was hope that the missing persons would be found alive, there was also a very good possibility that one or all were homicide victims. Two weeks after the three people vanished, it was confirmed that it was a triple homicide.

That is how I remember it as well. I think we have all concluded that the statement that someone would be in "medical distress" was based on a considerable volume of blood evidence in the home. But until DNA testing could be completed, LE could not know for sure if the blood was that of one victim or 2 or 3.

 

[stan laurel]

1994 ...

Thanks Otto. I am always curious as to the how and why of AL's habitual bankruptcies, and then I was thinking,, how did AL and KL announce their estate sale? Kijiji is one avenue they took and the other was by handing out leaflets at a casino. Now, I'm not one to say that this isn't an avenue for advertising such things but who solicits gamblers as potential buyers of stuff? Facebook and kijiji should suffice for getting a crowd but?

I am going somewhere with this.

A close friend of the family commit suicide by torching herself in her house, leaving behind a husband and 5 children. She was addicted to VLT's. Another friend who was a trader at Merryl Lynch lost his family to divorce and ended up living at the mustard seed shelter because of his addiction to VLT's.

VLT's became a fixture on the Alberta landscape in 1992.

I wonder if AL became addicted to parlaying investments - of his venture's - into the slots.

Gambling plays on the same part of the brain as cocaine does, and, it also brings in those other drug traits to get the fix, i.e., compulsive lying, stealing.

Who advertises at casinos?

 

[otto]

That is how I remember it as well. I think we have all concluded that the statement that someone would be in "medical distress" was based on a considerable volume of blood evidence in the home. But until DNA testing could be completed, LE could not know for sure if the blood was that of one victim or 2 or 3.

I also think that there may have something more than blood at the scene. That is, it might not just be volume of blood that confirmed the victims were deceased, but there could have been other elements (eg: brain matter, etc) at the scene.

 

[goodasgold]

What I recall is that police said that they were confident that they will find the missing persons, and they were hopeful that they would find them alive. I doubt that police ever said that there was evidence to suggest that they were alive. They stated that there was a "violent incident". I have posted the link several times to provide context to the definition of "violent incident" in the criminal code. In the context of this case, it means an attempted murder, or a homicide. Police also stated that someone was in "medical distress". Both of those statement imply that although there was hope that the missing persons would be found alive, there was also a very good possibility that one or all were homicide victims. Two weeks after the three people vanished, it was confirmed that it was a triple homicide.

I never said that the police said there was evidence to suggest they were alive, i said the police said there was no evidence to suggest otherwise in the conference when the reporter asked why he was hopeful to find them alive.

 

[otto]

That is how I remember it as well. I think we have all concluded that the statement that someone would be in "medical distress" was based on a considerable volume of blood evidence in the home. But until DNA testing could be completed, LE could not know for sure if the blood was that of one victim or 2 or 3.

I also think that there may have something more than blood at the scene. That is, it might not just be volume of blood that confirmed the victims were deceased, but there could have been other elements (eg: brain matter, etc) at the scene.

 

[Slebby]

I also think that there may have something more than blood at the scene. That is, it might not just be volume of blood that confirmed the victims were deceased, but there could have been other elements (eg: brain matter, etc) at the scene.

I agree. Or perhaps other fluids or body tissue that would indicate injuries that could not be survived.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

Thanks Otto. I am always curious as to the how and why of AL's habitual bankruptcies, and then I was thinking,, how did AL and KL announce their estate sale? Kijiji is one avenue they took and the other was by handing out leaflets at a casino. Now, I'm not one to say that this isn't an avenue for advertising such things but who solicits gamblers as potential buyers of stuff? Facebook and kijiji should suffice for getting a crowd but?

I am going somewhere with this.

A close friend of the family commit suicide by torching herself in her house, leaving behind a husband and 5 children. She was addicted to VLT's. Another friend who was a trader at Merryl Lynch lost his family to divorce and ended up living at the mustard seed shelter because of his addiction to VLT's.

VLT's became a fixture on the Alberta landscape in 1992.

I wonder if AL became addicted to parlaying investments - of his venture's - into the slots.

Gambling plays on the same part of the brain as cocaine does, and, it also brings in those other drug traits to get the fix, i.e., compulsive lying, stealing.

Who advertises at casinos?

Agreed, unless one partakes in Casino activities there is no reason to actually go to a Casino logically. Sure some Casinos have entertainment venues and restaurants but really not thinking that would be a good enough reason to go and hand out leaflet's there. In fact, I would say that is very much frowned upon at the Casino and if caught doing that would be asked to cease. Do we know if these leaflet's were handed out anywhere else?

 

[LoisLane]

Thanks Otto. I am always curious as to the how and why of AL's habitual bankruptcies, and then I was thinking,, how did AL and KL announce their estate sale? Kijiji is one avenue they took and the other was by handing out leaflets at a casino. Now, I'm not one to say that this isn't an avenue for advertising such things but who solicits gamblers as potential buyers of stuff? Facebook and kijiji should suffice for getting a crowd but?

I am going somewhere with this.

A close friend of the family commit suicide by torching herself in her house, leaving behind a husband and 5 children. She was addicted to VLT's. Another friend who was a trader at Merryl Lynch lost his family to divorce and ended up living at the mustard seed shelter because of his addiction to VLT's.

VLT's became a fixture on the Alberta landscape in 1992.

I wonder if AL became addicted to parlaying investments - of his venture's - into the slots.

Gambling plays on the same part of the brain as cocaine does, and, it also brings in those other drug traits to get the fix, i.e., compulsive lying, stealing.

Who advertises at casinos?

The many gamblers I know of are very consistent with online gambling game sites as well, especially when they have no cash. It depresses me to see all the slot games and other games shown on the facebook profiles. Of course, gamblers play these online games and they may not have an addiction or suffer from financial losses. I also can tell when a friend or family member may be feeling down when I see the games being played consistently on FB. With that said KL shows games on her profile.

One more thing... Where is the info that the sale was advertised at the casino?

 

[news.talk]

I never said that the police said there was evidence to suggest they were alive, i said the police said there was no evidence to suggest otherwise in the conference when the reporter asked why he was hopeful to find them alive.

Understanding cop-speak is a bit of an art... When they say "no evidence to prove otherwise" what they mean is "they haven't processed the evidence, therefore cannot say definitively".

 

[Slebby]

Agreed, unless one partakes in Casino activities there is no reason to actually go to a Casino logically. Sure some Casinos have entertainment venues and restaurants but really not thinking that would be a good enough reason to go and hand out leaflet's there. In fact, I would say that is very much frowned upon at the Casino and if caught doing that would be asked to cease. Do we know if these leaflet's were handed out anywhere else?

I know a surprising number of people who go to the nearby casino for the cheap buffet lunch! Maybe casinos are frequented by folks looking for good deals??

 

[Shags0sh]

IMO, any seasoned homicide detective knows EXACTLY what type of crime scene they are viewing. What they can't do, is say with certainty that it is a homicide without forensic verification. Saying that they are "hopeful" is a polite way to calm fears when they have nothing to prove otherwise. They are human too and of course they have hope for the best. Sadly, they no doubt knew that is not the case.

I originally thought along the same lines, that LE knew exactly what they were viewing as being a homicide, but were ever hopeful NO or NO and KL or AL were possibly still alive. However, it keeps bringing me back to WHY the delay with the Amber Alert? If there was cut and dry evidence of foul play, with the possibility of NO being found alive, would they not have initiated the Amber Alert right away?