Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #24

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I don't think there were meters of blood. Blood smears. In a picture it might look like a lot of blood, but may just be smears. I believe that is what the ME was saying (tweets are not that great). If someone was bleeding from a cut or torn flesh (depending on whether it is a head injury) it could look like a lot of blood when it is a tablespoon of blood smeared across a surface. If there had been pools of blood, the ME would have stated as much and could tell if it was fatal. With three individuals, it would be harder unless pools of blood were discovered. She used a scientific term of bloodletting. That means someone bled. When I hear bloodletting, I think of someone draining blood, but technically, bloodletting could be a paper cut. The ME is just testifying to her experience. Others will have to testify to theirs.

"Police would not comment on the drag marks, which ran about eight metres from a side door to the driveway and appeared to be a dark liquid that was recently cleaned up."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...lgary-grandparents-and-young-boy-went-missing

The ME seems to be testifying about the opinion of others. She is unable to say whether the victims were alive or dead when they were removed from the Liknes home. This does not mean that they were alive at Airdrie, but the prosecutors are hoping that the jury is too stupid to see this - that they will assume the worst.
 
DG going through this farce of a trial just to hurt the family more. He has no chance of beating these charges. The aerial photo and DNA on saw and meat hook will put him away for a very long time.
 
Quite true. I thought it was funny that the books on murder recommended leaving some evidence in plain sight. Douglas did exactly that with his brand new duffel bag. It was bad advice. Police departments should publish books about how to get away with murder, making recommendations that give them an advantage.

Even though he was a meticulous planner, he is also an obsessive man. When everything went sideways at the beginning (Alvin and Kathryn in separate bedrooms, Nathan at the home), his plan went out the window, but it seems that he continued to try to put the plan back on track. That was his downfall.

Don't you think him having boxes of handcuffs, knives, and other instruments all over the place hiding it in plain sight? What he didn't think about is the condition of everything. That is what brought the bag with handcuffs a knife, etc. to LE's attention. It was more of the same, but cleaner.
 
I was just thinking with the dentist testifying today will we find out who's tooth was found at the Liknes house? The teeth from the fire won't have dna, but that tooth will.
Hearing that Nathan's blood was found in the house yesterday was heartbreaking and i'm trying to prepare myself that they may say today that tooth was Nathan's.
 
I have heard that head wounds tend to bleed a lot, whether the wound is non-fatal or fatal. It's a possibility that at least one of the victims left the Liknes residence still alive.

I wonder if any traces of the blood clotting powder were found at the house?

DG likely wore a Tyvek suit, a mask, and gloves when he broke in, thus the absence of his DNA and fingerprints at the crime scene.

IIRC, wasn't there a tooth, or part of a tooth with a crown found in the burn barrel? If so, the Forensic Dentist would be able to match the tooth to one of the victims using dental records.
 
There has been a lot of controversy in the Chief Medical Examiner position for too long, so I'm not inclined to put a lot of faith in the current one. After skimming some of her testimony, I'm not exactly impressed. She said that it's quite possible the victims were dead at their home, but it's also possible they weren't. She said the ash in the barrels may be from a child, and may be from an adult. If she hadn't been told that a child and two adults were likely burned in the barrel, would she have been able to say that? No one needs a medical degree to say that there's so much blood at the first crime scene that the victims may have been mortally wounded, and the statement that they may have been alive at the Airdrie acreage seems self-serving, and to appease what police and prosecutors want to hear.

I wasn't surprised that the suspect's lawyer wanted some sort of clear answer as to whether the victims were alive when they left the first crime scene. It's unfortunately that the Chief Medical Examiner could not give a clear answer based on the amount of blood at the crime scene. Surely she would know that after losing X number of litres of blood, life is over, but she couldn't answer that question. Why not?

How is that self-serving? She doesn't know if they were alive when they left the house - but they could've been, or not. I'm not sure what people expect of her. She's making an educated observation. Should she have definitively stated one way or the other, despite the fact she couldn't know for sure either way?
 
I was just thinking with the dentist testifying today will we find out who's tooth was found at the Liknes house? The teeth from the fire won't have dna, but that tooth will.
Hearing that Nathan's blood was found in the house yesterday was heartbreaking and i'm trying to prepare myself that they may say today that tooth was Nathan's.

For some reason I have the idea that there were 3 or 4 teeth found at the L home, including the small one. I will have to look back for a link on that, so don't take is as definite!
 
Regarding the "why not?" as to why she couldn't say for sure that they were alive when they left - it's simple. The amount of blood found at the Liknes house is NOT necessarily a certain indication one way or another. Someone who lost that amount of blood could in fact have survived for a period of time. I'm confused by the confusion over this.
 
I agree. Third party answers are not good enough. The defence lawyer should be all over this.

I don't buy the testimony from the Chief Medical Examiner. I think she is a puppet. Answers of "maybe" are not answers. The true answer is: "I don't know", and if she doesn't know the answers, she doesn't need to testify.

No, it's perfectly acceptable for an expert witness to declare "maybe". They don't disqualify a witness's opinion simply because they don't have a definite yes or no answer. She could have stated her opinion either way, but she was being honest in that she just can't know, that either scenario is possible. That's not useless testimony. It's still meaningful and leaves the possibility that they were in fact alive on the table.
 
According to google, there are 4-5 litres of blood in an adult body. If 3 of them are spilled in the house - which I would say there were given the drag marks on the side of the house in addition to the blood in the house - then at least one, more likely three, persons were mortally wounded at the Liknes house. It is in the prosecution's interest to have someone testify that the victims were alive and not mortally wounded when they arrived at the acreage so they can paint a gruesome picture of torture and mutilation of living victims.

It's like amateur hour at the prosecutor's office.

You are speculating and acting as an expert yourself when you aren't, and you weren't there to see the blood yourself. Sorry, I'll take the word of the medical examiner who was actually at the scene over someone on the internet who really has no idea. Her not being psychic and not able to definitively state one way or another if they were alive upon leaving the house does not make this "amatuer hour". I think you watch too much CSI and have an unrealistic expectation as to how criminal trials and forensics work in the real world.
 
For some reason I have the idea that there were 3 or 4 teeth found at the L home, including the small one. I will have to look back for a link on that, so don't take is as definite!

I thought was two teeth found. I have just starting following this case since it went to trial. I've read all the trial posts and most of the MSM info. Just taking what I have seen, I would be very surprised if he is not found guilty unless the defense comes up with some very compelling evidence it was not him and I'm not talking insinuations.
 
For some reason I have the idea that there were 3 or 4 teeth found at the L home, including the small one. I will have to look back for a link on that, so don't take is as definite!

So far I have:

Lucas MeyerVerified account ‏@meyer_lucas 17s18 seconds ago
Matthes said on his second time through, he found a bloody dumbbell in the garage and a small tooth in a hallway #Garland #yyc

and

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/01..._14206936.html
Douglas Garland Trial: Court Hears Graphic 'Bloodbath' Details Of Crime Scene (GRAPHIC)
Posted: 01/16/2017 4:41 pm EST
[…]
The Crown outlined what police found. A burn barrel, still smouldering, contained bones and a small tooth. A tiny piece of burned flesh was found in the grass beside the barrel.

I'm sure I remember more teeth at the L house. I'll keep looking but does anyone else remember that? I could be way wrong.
 
I hope DG didn't play dentist with his father and use the dental anesthetic and pull a tooth out.
 
You are speculating and acting as an expert yourself when you aren't, and you weren't there to see the blood yourself. Sorry, I'll take the word of the medical examiner who was actually at the scene over someone on the internet who really has no idea. Her not being psychic and not able to definitively state one way or another if they were alive upon leaving the house does not make this "amatuer hour". I think you watch too much CSI and have an unrealistic expectation as to how criminal trials and forensics work in the real world.

I just want to say that I agree with you but I have backed out of the conversation regarding the ME's testimony because some posts were just extremely frustrating.
 
Regarding the "why not?" as to why she couldn't say for sure that they were alive when they left - it's simple. The amount of blood found at the Liknes house is NOT necessarily a certain indication one way or another. Someone who lost that amount of blood could in fact have survived for a period of time. I'm confused by the confusion over this.
Exactly, she can't testify to what she doesn't know for sure. There were no bodies, thus no way to say definitively that they were dead or not. Now, if she had seen brain matter, for instance, it would change things but she didn't. I'm not sure why there is so much confusion either. Of course the Crown has other witnesses, we are on something like 24 of 60 for goodness sakes! Every witness adds a piece of the puzzle.

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Exactly, she can't testify to what she doesn't know for sure. There were no bodies, thus no way to say definitively that they were dead or not. Now, if she had seen brain matter, for instance, it would change things but she didn't. I'm not sure why there is so much confusion either. Of course the Crown has other witnesses, we are on something like 24 of 60 for goodness sakes! Every witness adds a piece of the puzzle.

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Precisely.
 
Exactly, she can't testify to what she doesn't know for sure. There were no bodies, thus no way to say definitively that they were dead or not. Now, if she had seen brain matter, for instance, it would change things but she didn't. I'm not sure why there is so much confusion either. Of course the Crown has other witnesses, we are on something like 24 of 60 for goodness sakes! Every witness adds a piece of the puzzle.

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Yep. Blood spatter expert (which i think is next week) should fill in a few more pieces of that puzzle.
 
CCTV TESTIMONY ALERT!!

"It’s also expected a forensic video analyst will testify about CCTV video presented in the trial."

Also from this article (ties in to my teeth topic earlier today): "Court has heard several teeth were found in the forensic examination of the Liknes home. The prosecution has also pointed out a small tooth was recovered from the burn barrel at the Garland property."


http://globalnews.ca/news/3218480/f...douglas-garland-triple-murder-trial-thursday/
 
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