Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #26

[CentralAlberta]

Blood dripping down the head board and pooling on the floor at that location is enough for me to believe that this is where Nathan died.

That was Kathy's blood.

 

[Slebby]

Blood dripping down the head board and pooling on the floor at that location is enough for me to believe that this is where Nathan died.

Blood on headboard was KL. See post above - #453.


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[CentralAlberta]

I doubt that counselling is available until after the verdict, as jurors could not receive counselling without discussing the details of the case. If the jurors discuss the facts of the case with anyone, even a therapist, that is a violation of the rights of the accused.

THey can discuss how they are feeling and what the trial is doing to them personally without discussing details of the case. - how they can't sleep at night, how eating makes them feel sick, how they see what they have been shown every time they close their eyes, how they have difficulty relating to family . . . etc. etc.

 

[MistyWaters]

This looks like it will be more on the arrest and thats it for the Crown. No journal, no video tape.

It seems the defence may have won certain arguments of items not allowed to be introduced into evidence. But the media did say they would be permitted to release discussions that went on in the courtroom after jury deliberation, possibly quite insightful.

 

[otto]

I can't imagine how the neighbors must feel. Questioning themselves why they didn't hear anything, or maybe if they did, why didn't they get up and check.

As to what DG was doing in the house for 1.5 hours, he may have taken a lot of time to drill those 2 holes in the lock. I can't see him standing there with the drill running full throttle drilling away. He must have done it in quick little spurts with listening seconds in between, all the while his adrenaline building.

Drilling the lock takes 1-5 minutes, depending on experience. An inexperienced person needs 5 minutes. There was quite a violent attack in the house. Kathryn and Nathan bled in the kitchen (where her phone was), in the front foyer, and in the spare bedroom. I am wondering why Alvin wasn't also in the same sort of struggle and wonder if he took some time to wake up.

After all three victims were completely terrorized and beaten to death, or nearly to death, Garland mopped floors and tried to clean up. He removed sheets from the beds. He washed the sidewalk, opened the patio doors, and staged the scene after the murders. That all took time.

I wonder if he took Alvin's keys and returned to the house at 8AM because he planned to move Alvin's car to another location, but then had second thoughts because it was daylight.

 

[otto]

That was Kathy's blood.

There was also some of Nathan's blood at the location IIRC.

 

[dogmatica]

Rereading these tweets makes me think Ross is actually trying to get the witness to state that there was indeed "significant amount of blood loss". Is it possible he's actually trying to prove the Ls and NO must have died from blood loss at the house, rather than later on at the farm, after being kidnapped and tortured? Thus minimizing the charges for which his client will be convicted?


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It doesn't matter if they were killed at the farm or the house - 1st degree still stands. They were unlawfully confined at the house - and if they were murdered there, it's still first degree. He isn't charged with anything else, so the "torture" won't come into play re: his sentencing. My prediction is - guilty on 3 counts of 1 st degree murder.

 

[dogmatica]

Especially since no matter where they died it's 1st degree murder. The jury is not going to believe all that computer stuff and all of his weapons/restraints were just "collections" and a coincidence. He planned that murder and he planned to take them out of that house alive. If he messed that up and ended up killing them at the house it's still 1st degree. ( that is my understanding anyways)

Correct.

 

[otto]

THey can discuss how they are feeling and what the trial is doing to them personally without discussing details of the case. - how they can't sleep at night, how eating makes them feel sick, how they see what they have been shown every time they close their eyes, how they have difficulty relating to family . . . etc. etc.

Garland will have grounds for appeal if jurors discuss any aspect of the case, including their reaction to the evidence, prior to verdict. They cannot discuss their role on the jury with anyone at this time.

If jurors cannot handle the evidence, they can ask to be excused.

 

[dogmatica]

Unless somehow killing NO can be downgraded to 2nd degree or even manslaughter? DG only set out to commit 2 murders? Just trying to guess what possible strategy the defence might use. MOO


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No, as far as I know it cannot be brought down to 2nd degree or manslaughter. Nathan was killed while being unlawfully confined and/or kidnapped - that's 1st degree.

 

[otto]

It doesn't matter if they were killed at the farm or the house - 1st degree still stands. They were unlawfully confined at the house - and if they were murdered there, it's still first degree. He isn't charged with anything else, so the "torture" won't come into play re: his sentencing. My prediction is - guilty on 3 counts of 1 st degree murder.

If it makes no difference where they died, why is the prosecution so determined to claim that they died at the acreage?

 

[otto]

No, as far as I know it cannot be brought down to 2nd degree or manslaughter. Nathan was killed while being unlawfully confined and/or kidnapped - that's 1st degree.

Charges for Nathan were originally 2nd degree. Perhaps the blood on the headboard and blood pool on the floor led prosecutors to assume that he was deliberately killed and that led to upgrading the charges. That is, it could be considered an accident until that evidence was understood ... as the dripping blood suggests a deliberate assault on Nathan.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Charges for Nathan were originally 2nd degree. Perhaps the blood on the headboard and blood pool on the floor led prosecutors to assume that he was deliberately killed and that led to upgrading the charges.

It was the judge at the preliminary who increased the charge to first degree, he must have felt there were grounds.

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[PrincessButtercup]

If it makes no difference where they died, why is the prosecution so determined to claim that they died at the acreage?

I was expecting the Crown to introduce evidence in this respect but it seems they won't be.

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[otto]

I was expecting the Crown to introduce evidence in this respect but it seems they won't be.

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If it makes a difference, the Judge will include it in the jury instructions.

 

[otto]

It was the judge at the preliminary who increased the charge to first degree, he must have felt there were grounds.

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The prosecutor has to make a request, the Judge only rules on the request.

 

[dogmatica]

That's disturbing that they can apply for NCR AFTER he's convicted. However - I just don't see it being accepted. There was too much planning for too long, and too many things done to conceal the crime - including prior research on how to avoid detection - which shows very clearly he knew what he was planning was wrong. That's kills the NCR strategy. If it was totally spontaneous, like he all of a sudden cracked, maybe they could try that. But he knew what he was doing, planning to do, was wrong.

 

[deugirtni]

Blood dripping down the head board and pooling on the floor at that location is enough for me to believe that this is where Nathan died.

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
a lot of blood on the R side of bed in spare room Arns says impact pattern of blood was on wall behind headboard too

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
Blood drip stains more in the centre of the bed of spare bedroom - matched DNA for Nathan O'Brien #garland

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
The heavy blood saturation stains on the bed of spare bedroom were matched to Kathy Liknes #Garland

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
Arns: My opinion "Kathy was on the floor when these stains were made" - referring to heavy blood stains on mattress/floor near headboard

 

[dogmatica]

I completely agree. I think it matters whether they died at the house or at the acreage, and I've always wondered why the prosecution seems so insistent that they died at the acreage. After reading about the blood in and out of the house, I am very doubtful that Kathryn and Nathan were alive when they left the house. I think there's a slim possibility that Alvin survived the night, but I do still think that he was mortally wounded when he left his home.

It doesn't matter from a legal/conviction/sentencing standpoint. At the house or at the farm - still 1st degree. And again - the medical examiner stated they could have been alive when they left that house. She is more knowledgeable than you are about this.

 

[PrincessButtercup]

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
a lot of blood on the R side of bed in spare room Arns says impact pattern of blood was on wall behind headboard too

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
Blood drip stains more in the centre of the bed of spare bedroom - matched DNA for Nathan O'Brien #garland

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
The heavy blood saturation stains on the bed of spare bedroom were matched to Kathy Liknes #Garland

Ina Sidhu ‏@CTVInaSidhu
Arns: My opinion "Kathy was on the floor when these stains were made" - referring to heavy blood stains on mattress/floor near headboard

I shudder to think what would have been discovered if they had the bodies. That would have likely been incredibly disturbing.

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