VERDICT WATCH Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #16 *Arrest*

[Two SCents]

Only if you believe it was an accident.

Correct.

 

[Detechtive]

Hope so. I’m intrigued about the reporting of a woman is who has been winking at the accused in the courtroom. Heard it mentioned on a podcast in first instance I believe. I wondered if it was the sister of accused but perhaps unlikely. I’ve searched transcripts of the podcast but can’t find it. Needle in a haystack with all of the podcasts and reporting. It was also reported in the Guardian. It was noticed by many in the courtroom apparently. Any ideas about identity of this woman?

It's her best friend. IMO

 

[Detechtive]

Yes, this is obvious to me what happened, but the prosecution needed to disprove Erin's story about scraping of the mushroom paste from the meat before feeding it to the children.

It is disproven. If her version was true, her kids would have been dead or at least in ICU.

 

[Monstradamus]

Hope so. I’m intrigued about the reporting of a woman is who has been winking at the accused in the courtroom. Heard it mentioned on a podcast in first instance I believe. I wondered if it was the sister of accused but perhaps unlikely. I’ve searched transcripts of the podcast but can’t find it. Needle in a haystack with all of the podcasts and reporting. It was also reported in the Guardian. It was noticed by many in the courtroom apparently. Any ideas about identity of this woman?

Possibly her POA. Maybe @Detechtive knows?

 

[katydid23]

I posted some specific examples upthread somewhere, with exact quotes and links.

But just from memory now, there were two 'prosecution' arguments the judge said had to be rejected by the jury.

One argument was that 'the leftover scraped off meat would have been toxic' to the kids. Judge B said that was speculation with no proof offered.

But I pinpointed two places in the trial where the P did offer expert evidence.

One of the doctors testified specifically that her children needed to be examined 'because the meat that she scraped could still be toxic.'

And the fungi expert testified that the Death Caps are dangerous because their poisons are released through fluids when cooking.[And we know the death caps were cooked on top of the beef.]

So the Judge instructed the jury to reject that argument by the P because 'it was speculation' on their part. But the Judge ignored the testimony by the Fungi expert and the Emergency Doctor who both testified to factual evidence that the leftover meat could/would be toxic.

There was another argument they told the jury to reject too but I have to go back upthread to find it.

The lab tested a sample of the meat and found the toxins present. However, the experts did not address the question of whether or not the meat would be permeated because they hadn't been asked that specific detail. It was possible that the toxins were just on the outside of the meat.

But the issue was her statement that she 'scraped off the mushrooms' and gave the meat to her children.

If the toxins were 'just on the outside' of the meat, that would still taint the meal and the kids would be ill.

But it is not logical that the toxic juices from the Deasth Caps would not permeate the meat. When you cook meat along with seasonings and veggies etc, the fluids infiltrate the porous meat.

Yes, if one ate the leftover meat they would be poisoned due to the known presence of toxins on the outside. However, if the server cut off the outer layer before serving, would toxins still be present? Saying that there would still be toxins is speculative because there was no evidence presented to support that assumption.

She NEVER said anything about cutting off the outer layer. She testified under oath that she 'scraped off the mushrooms.' Why would she bother scraping them off if she was going to cut off the outer layer?

Dr Webster himself said that the children could still be ill if they ate the 'scraped off' leftovers because the toxins could taint the meat.

And the fungi expert testified about how the toxins in Death Caps infiltrate other foods when they are cooked together because poisonous fluids are released from the DC's. Meat is easily penetrated.

So the judge was actually correct to point that out. The comment was regarding the presence of toxins within the meat, vs on the surface of the meat.

But no one ever suggested the kids were served meat with the surface cut away. They were said to have eaten meat that had the mushrooms scraped off the top. Scraping the mushrooms would not remove the toxic outer layer.

I am curious how knowing that bit of info is significant in the events that transpired. I don't see that it is either helpful nor unhelpful for the defence.

It is important to know that the leftover meat was toxic because it proves EP was lying when she claimed she fed it to hr kids.

 

[katydid23]

He had already declined the invitation ("I don't feel comfortable"), and she doubled down to try and guilt him into attending the night before, by telling him she had spent a small fortune on the meal, and there was an important medical issue to be discussed. No reply from SP, which enraged her, imo.

And then she gets on the stand and claims she never ever told anyone that she wanted to discuss her medical issues. She claims that even her children were mistaken about that. EVERYONE was mistaken about that. Even though we saw the various text messages from her saying otherwise.

 

[Scuffy35]

We do definitely know the meat would have been poisoned because amotixins are water soluble. It's science. The duxelle’s moisture and fat content allow the amatoxins to diffuse into the surface of the meat as it sits, especially if the mixture is warm or left to rest on the beef before baking.
As the beef Wellington bakes, the heat and steam cause juices to move between the layers of duxelle, meat, and pastry contaminating the entire dish.

Mushroom Poisoning - PMC

Poisonous mushrooms are eaten by mushroom hunters out of ignorance, after misidentification as edible mushrooms, or as a psychoactive drug. Mushroom poisoning commonly leads to consultation with a poison information center and to hospitalization. ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The beef also has moisture which could mean the moisture moves in the direction from the beef to the mushroom paste. Or moisture could have moved in both directions.

I think the problem is that the Jury does not know that the amatoxins to diffuse into the surface of the meat. Also, they are not allowed to do their own research like we can. There was no expert witness who explicitly said this and that is why the judge asked the Jury to disregard the prosecution assertions that it did.

In my other post on page 58 I asked if the Jury should be able to use common sense or life experience knowledge on this.

 

[Susjay]

Possibly her POA. Maybe @Detechtive knows?

Her:
POA Price on Application? or a member of Black tarp crew who shielded her house from media?

 

[Woolly]

Were the Asian mushrooms ever really a player?

Oh, definitely not, IMO. But I think when she talks about the Asian mushrooms, she’s talking about the death caps. For example, when she says she bought them in April, it was in April she picked the death caps. She describes them as pungent, which we know dried death caps to be, etc. So when she talked about originally considering putting “the Asian mushrooms” in a carbonara, it makes me wonder if there was a time when she almost used the death caps but didn’t (like perhaps the June lunch). Or maybe she had considered hiding them in carbonara but changed her mind.

 

[katydid23]

A marinade is NOT a toxin. And yes, experts testified that the toxins would permeate the meat beyond the outside layer. Ask Katydid. She has the specifics.

My previous posts with those specifics seem to be gone? I can't find them now but we did all have several discussions, with links, showing the science behind that.

Death Caps release toxic liquids when they are cooking----if they are cooking ON TOP of porous meat, those liquids would permeate the membranes of the cooking meat.

The way Death Caps kill is by entering the blood stream and then the digestive tract and finally the LIVER. It does so by infiltrating the organs with the toxic poison.

If Death Caps were cooking in the oven on top of raw meat, there is no question that the liquid toxins would be infiltrating the meat membranes, just like they do in the liver and bloodstream.

DR WEBSTER TOLD ERIN---"Your kids would be in danger if they ate the leftover meat--EVEN IF you scraped off the mushrooms." He felt so strongly about it he called police to make sure the kids would be brought in.

The fungi expert described how the toxins invade and permeate one's bloodstream and organs.

[Previously, I posted the exact quotes from Dr Webster and from the Fungi expert. Can't find them now.]

 

[katydid23]

I am quite sure that there was no expert that testified that would permeate the meat beyond the outside layer.

I commented upthread that the jury should be able to use common sense or life experiences to address this question themselves rather than needing an expert witness to confirm everything. It is the same for the lack of expert witness on what impact the vomiting would have had.

I theorised earlier that if she only scraped the mushroom paste off, then there would still be a smearing of it left on the meat, even if it had not penetrated the meat. One would have to wash and scrub the meat to get that smearing off.

It was only a nurse that testified that she told Erin that the mushroom toxin would have seeped into the meat. The doctor that testified said he told Erin that her kids could be scared or dead, did not specifically testify about seepage.

Yes, Dr Webster did say specifically that if she fed them " leftover meat that had the mushrooms scraped off," they could be in real danger. Obviously that would be because of potential toxins tainting the meat.

In any case, the prosecution would have needed an expert that was specifically knowledgeable about DC toxins permeating meat.

I think they assumed the Fungi Expert answered that question when he described how the Death Caps kill their victims. The poison leaks out during cooking and during digestion process in the body---the toxins permeate and infiltrate the blood stream and the liver.

If those DC toxins can infiltrate the liver, could they not infiltrate beef that they are sitting on top of in an oven?

When mushrooms are cooked they release juices---Death Caps release toxic juices. Raw beef is very porous. If mushrooms are on top of raw beef, and they are in an oven cooking together, doesn't it seem likely that those toxic juices are going to infiltrate that beef?

The fungi expert said that is how Death Caps kill victims. The toxins are released into the blood stream and the liver.

If there was none with preexisting knowledge, couldn't they have performed the specific testing, peer reviewed, and had those results submitted as evidence?

I think they relied upon the Doctor's testimony and the fungi expert's testimony.

I am not sure why Judge B did not add their expert testimony into the mix and say that there is reason to believe that leftover meat would be toxic. Dr Webster said it would be.

The expert that found the DC toxin through chemical testing, could not determine if the toxin was specifically in the meat as it was mixed with the mushroom paste when he tested it.

Right because he is only asked to discuss chemical tests he has done.

 

[katydid23]

Indeed. That is what her kids said and I believe them too.

So why did Erin lie about that and say she served them 'scraped off' leftovers?

 

[Scuffy35]

RSBM

Dr Webster himself said that the children could still be ill if they ate the 'scraped off' leftovers because the toxins could taint the meat.

I haven't seen where Dr Webster said anything like this. Also he would not be the type of expert to reliable testimony about the way the toxins could diffuse into the meat. He probably used his common sense.

The ABC live blog for his testimony is:

Court sees footage of Erin Patterson leaving hospital against medical advice — as it happened

A Supreme Court murder trial hears Erin Patterson was initially "reluctant" to have her children brought to hospital for medical checks after they allegedly ate leftovers from a lunch contaminated with death cap mushrooms. Look back on how the day's hearing unfolded in our blog.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Scooby-Doo]

What questions will the jury consider?​

When it comes to deciding whether Ms Patterson is guilty of murder or not, the jury must be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the four legal elements of that charge have been met.

Those are:

1. Did Ms Patterson cause the deaths of the lunch guests? If the jury is satisfied of that, it can move on to element two;
2. Did she do it deliberately? If it is satisfied of that, then the jury can ask;
3. Did she do it with an intention to kill or cause really serious injury? If the panel is satisfied of that, it can arrive at the final element;
4. Did Ms Patterson commit the killings without a lawful justification or excuse, such as self-defence?

Justice Beale told the jury on Monday that what was in dispute was whether the serving of the poisonous meal was deliberate and whether it was done with murderous intent.

The judge explained that for the charge of attempted murder, the jury needed to be satisfied Ms Patterson had intended to kill Ian Wilkinson, and that an intention to cause really serious injury was not applicable.

As the defence reminded the jury in both its opening and closing arguments, the onus is on the prosecution to prove Ms Patterson intentionally poisoned her relatives — in other words, the accused is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[LinasK]

Yes, Dr Webster did say specifically that if she fed them " leftover meat that had the mushrooms scraped off," they could be in real danger. Obviously that would be because of potential toxins tainting the meat.



I think they assumed the Fungi Expert answered that question when he described how the Death Caps kill their victims. The poison leaks out during cooking and during digestion process in the body---the toxins permeate and infiltrate the blood stream and the liver.

If those DC toxins can infiltrate the liver, could they not infiltrate beef that they are sitting on top of in an oven?

When mushrooms are cooked they release juices---Death Caps release toxic juices. Raw beef is very porous. If mushrooms are on top of raw beef, and they are in an oven cooking together, doesn't it seem likely that those toxic juices are going to infiltrate that beef?

The fungi expert said that is how Death Caps kill victims. The toxins are released into the blood stream and the liver.


I think they relied upon the Doctor's testimony and th fungi experts testimony.

I am not sure why Judge B did not add their expert testimony into the mix and say that there is reason to believe that leftover meat would be toxic. Dr Wbstr said it would be.

It seems so obvious how the toxins from the Death Caps seep into the meat. And they aren't "thick" like a marinade sauce would be. You don't need a background in Science to understand how it works. There's no possible way that she scraped off the mushrooms from the Beef Wellingtons and fed them to her children, unless it was only from her non-poisoned half-portion, which wouldn't have been enough to feed two children- one of which was a growing teenage boy.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I am quite sure that there was no expert that testified that would permeate the meat beyond the outside layer.

I commented upthread that the jury should be able to use common sense or life experiences to address this question themselves rather than needing an expert witness to confirm everything. It is the same for the lack of expert witness on what impact the vomiting would have had.

I theorised earlier that if she only scraped the mushroom paste off, then there would still be a smearing of it left on the meat, even if it had not penetrated the meat. One would have to wash and scrub the meat to get that smearing off.

It was only a nurse that testified that she told Erin that the mushroom toxin would have seeped into the meat. The doctor that testified said he told Erin that her kids could be scared or dead, did not specifically testify about seepage. In any case, the prosecution would have needed an expert that was specifically knowledgeable about DC toxins permeating meat. If there was none with preexisting knowledge, couldn't they have performed the specific testing, peer reviewed, and had those results submitted as evidence?

The expert that found the DC toxin through chemical testing, could not determine if the toxin was specifically in the meat as it was mixed with the mushroom paste when he tested it.

I'm curious if we know how the meat was marinated? When I marinate meat, if it's at all tough, I have a tool that allows me to poke tiny holes in the meat before I marinate it. For smaller cuts, I just use a fork to make holes. That way the meat comes out very tender.

 

[Kemug]

Yep I had this in the U.K. and my case wasn’t anywhere near as serious as this one. One person was completely unreasonable and no matter what wouldn’t agree so in the end after the judge realized that was the case he said as long as the majority of us agreed he would accept that verdict so 11/1 was our vote on guilty. But we was sent back for a day to argue and hit our head against a brick wall first.

We had one lady holding out against guilty on our jury. The case was that the man had been caught redhanded in his garage making drugs. Which he admitted! But our juror lady, originally from central Europe somewhere, didn't believe it - because she knew "what police are like!" We finally sent a note to the Judge, asking for a transcript of what the prisoner had said. He did admit it, yes, but his defence was that he had been too drug-addled to know what he was doing. Sheesh.

 

[ch_13]

In my other post on page 58 I asked if the Jury should be able to use common sense or life experience knowledge on this.

Juries should be able to use their common sense on this.

I mean at one time or another, I bet each and everyone one of us has tried scraping the seasonings or marinade off a piece of meat because it was too spicy, too salty, too sweet, or whatever.

And I think we'd all agree that the meat still retains the flavor of what we scraped off. You can still taste spice/salt/sweetness/etc. So if the particles carry the flavor linger, how can the toxin just get scraped away?

 

[katydid23]

I haven't seen where Dr Webster said anything like this.

He did say that specifically. He refuted her claim that scraping off the meat means it was safe for her kids to eat. H said it was Life or Death situation.

Also he would not be the type of expert to reliable testimony about the way the toxins could diffuse into the meat. He probably used his common sense.

The ABC live blog for his testimony is:

Court sees footage of Erin Patterson leaving hospital against medical advice — as it happened

A Supreme Court murder trial hears Erin Patterson was initially "reluctant" to have her children brought to hospital for medical checks after they allegedly ate leftovers from a lunch contaminated with death cap mushrooms. Look back on how the day's hearing unfolded in our blog.

www.abc.net.au

Yes, if you cook beef together with Death Cap mushrooms, the amatoxins from the mushrooms
can infiltrate the beef and make it highly poisonous.
Here's why:

• Amatoxins are heat-stable: Amatoxins, the deadly toxins found in Death Cap mushrooms, are not destroyed by cooking, freezing, or drying.
• Toxins remain deadly: Even when cooked, the amatoxins in the Death Cap mushrooms remain present and can transfer to the food they are cooked with.
• Ingesting even a small amount is dangerous: It is estimated that as little as half a death cap mushroom contains enough toxin to kill an adult human.
• The beef will become contaminated: When cooked together, the amatoxins can leach from the mushrooms into the beef, making the beef itself dangerous to eat.

 

[LinasK]

Juries should be able to use their common sense on this.

I mean at one time or another, I bet each and everyone one of us has tried scraping the seasonings or marinade off a piece of meat because it was too spicy, too salty, too sweet, or whatever.

And I think we'd all agree that the piece of meat still retains the taste of what we scraped off. It never tastes unseasoned or unmarinated. So if the particles carry the taste linger, how can the toxin just get scraped away?

You nailed it. It can't, Therefore her children didn't receive the poisoned meat.