CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

[Sillybilly]

If it took so long to rule Scott out as match with the forensics, how is it that LE was able to rule out other people right at the beginning of the investigation?

 

[Sillybilly]

IIRC, AG didn't generally invite people into her home. I wonder which of Audrey's friends was able to tell LE which items were missing. Would be good if we even knew the "type" of items that are missing.

 

[maxfactor]

The murder scene:

Audrey’s body was found brutally beaten, stabbed and sexually assaulted (a “sexual component” involved) at her home. LE described her murder as the most vicious they had seen in the past 10 years. Her body was found in the garage (true?), while her dogs were locked in a room of the house. (LE won’t say if someone forced their way into the home.) Her purse found undisturbed in the house. Some items were taken from the house. (LE declines to specify which items.)

LE towed her Camaro away for further examination. LE scoured a 3 km radius for clues. Some items were found but it was not known if they were related to the crime. (One reporter said “what looks like a miniature saw” was collected from the ditch.)

When I saw this I was wondering if they meant the little saws that contracters use for cutting drywall. I guess I'm thinking back to the guy with workboots from the SV case.

 

[Snoopster]

If it took so long to rule Scott out as match with the forensics, how is it that LE was able to rule out other people right at the beginning of the investigation?

I wondered that too. I would think the major thing that would exclude someone as a suspect right off the bat would be a clear alibi, as opposed to forensics. LE has not released a suspected time of death however. Since it is unlikely that they would know the exact time, I would presume someone would have to have an alibi that covers a broader period of time. For instance, perhaps someone went out of town for those few key days over the holidays when it was suspected Audrey was killed.

The other thing that struck me as odd was that, very early on, LE indicated that they believed it was a stranger that killed Audrey. What lead them to this conclusion I wonder?

 

[Missizzy]

I think that's one of the most important questions, Snoopster. How could they possibly know that, immediately? Doesn't that fly in the face of most murderers' profiles? What could be at the murder scene that denoted a stranger? Was the body staged, symbols or notes left near the body? Some sort of clear indication that this person had no personal connection with Ms. Gleave but still decided to brutally kill her? And being that robbery didn't seem to be a motive, what other motive is left--for a stranger? They simply wanted to kill?

 

[LilyMacBloom]

I too find it very hard to believe the killer is a total stranger for the following:
-it would be very hard to target AG just by "driving by" you can't see the house from the road.
-it was December so being "spotted" doing yard work etc is hardly unlikely besides,
-she wasn't feeling well so she wasn't "out and about" for the few days leading up to her murder.
-as recorded she was a recluse with what seems to be a very regimented schedule.

that brings us to semi stranagers ie:
-playing bridge on-line
-habitual frequenters of Tim Hortons where she could have been seen

or someone she knew
-former co-workers, students, alumni, friends, enemies

which brings us to motive (I'm sticking with nothing missing as stated by her friend)
- her estate (executer friend) was it the dog cemetery? or the SPCA?

was the "sexual component" staged to make it look like a stranger? and/or a different motive? :banghead: I'm beginning to think we are never going to find out. God bless the police, I think they may have wasted too much time trying to pin it on DLS.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Well, now what? I'm STILL going on my gut feeling that SV, SL, and AG's attackers/killers are the same person.:twocents:

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/03/charge-dropped-in-killing-of-exteacher

Now, what would SV, SL and AG have in common?
-use of computers (perhaps a hacker stalking women living in remote places)

Or, as I previously thought - the SV and SL guy finally moved from the Orangeville area to hide out in the area of AG's house. LE even said that the SV killer would likely move away from the Orangeville area.

This is a mystery. And I agree that LE pinned it on DLS far too quickly (due to pressure to make a conviction stick?).

 

[Missizzy]

I remember being surprised that Ms. Gleave did not ask that she be remembered by donations to the pet cemetery. She seemed to spend a lot of time there. I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted some of her ashes scattered there. The obituary, however, lists the SPCA:

http://yourlifemoments.ca/sitepages/obituary.asp?oid=453015

"....Donations to the S.P.C.A. would be appreciated..."

 

[Canadian4]

Her obit says she died on Thursday. Is that because she was found on Thursday or did they determine it to be that day?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Her obit says she died on Thursday. Is that because she was found on Thursday or did they determine it to be that day?

This is just me assuming but I would suspect that the time of death had to be determined for her (by law). So, I assume that Thursday would be correct.

 

[Missizzy]

I've run across that issue a number of times. I think it depends on the coroner. Sometimes they will state the presumed time and date of death. Other times they will state the time that a coroner declared the person dead. That came up in the Matteo Giovanditto murder in Celebration, FL. Giovanditto's obituary lists the date he was found dead as his date of death. But it was obvious that he was killed earlier. I can think of several other cases. I wouldn't limit the "search" to Thursday.

 

[Sillybilly]

Discussion re time of death has me wondering about something. We know that AG spent Sunday Dec 26 at friends (presumably she ate something on that date). Then LV took soup over to Audrey on Monday (unkown whether AG ate the soup that day or at all), and then we have PK finding the crime scene at 11:00 am Thursday. Don't quite know where i'm going with this, but would be interested in knowing what a forensic analysis of stomach contents showed. IF the soup was eaten, was other food subsequently eaten?

GRAPHIC WARNING ON THE FOLLOWING !! The reference to "sexual component", combined with LE's statement regarding how horrific the crime was, has reminded me of a gruesome factor related to one of the Edmonton cases that involved the removal of the victim's genitals and breasts. In other words, I don't necessarily think the wording "sexual component" has to relate to sexual assault as we normally define it, but could possibly be confined to mutilation.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Response to the above post by sillybilly: Indeed, I agree with you here. ANY/ALL acts of "sexual assault" are really 'acts of hatred against women' so certainly mutilation, etc. would be in that category according to LE.

Further to the point, too, is this - how do we know that SV's body was not also mutilated in that manner? Just because LE didn't add the "sexual component" phrase means nothing.:twocents: The amount of blood described in SV's case sounds like an extremely brutal killing. Just as was the killing of AG.

 

[Missizzy]

I've always assumed that some form of mutilation must have been a component of this crime....sadly. In going over this page again, something struck me. The killer might have written a note to Ms. Gleave, carved something into her body or left a message written in her blood. Possibly the killer referred to her in a way that caused LE to know they couldn't have known her true name. That's the only thing that I can come up with that would certainly show that the killer was not a person know to her. But couldn't that also be a way to throw off LE?

A known person who might do this out of rage, would surely use her name. A stranger, or a very astute killer, would not.

It's also possible that this was a case of mistaken identity. Maybe the killer addressed another person entirely and made a fatal mistake. A hit gone wrong?

 

[Snoopster]

Known vs unknown?

Known....the person would know that AG lived alone; would know AG's habits; would know about the dogs and how they were contained; would know what to take.

Unknown....unless a complete case of mistaken identity (as mentioned my MissIzzy) I would think it would have to be a stalker. But how rare would it be for a stalker to hit out in a rural area? The person would be more at risk of standing out. (DLS provideds the perfect example of this. Many people in the neighbourhood seemed to know about the weird homeless man.) If it was a break-in, where little driveway action in the snow implied that perhaps the occupants were away for the holidays, then it would be unlikely that the person(s) would then kill the surprise occupant in such a violent manner. Plus the barking dogs would have scared them away.

One other point that's been bugging me has been the fact that AG contacted her coffee group on Monday to let them know she would be too sick to attend on Wednesday morning. Why didn't she wait until the following day, after she could confirm that she was still quite ill? She also put off PK and his wife until Thursday. It's almost as if she wanted to make sure she didn't see anyone on Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from Snoopster:

One other point that's been bugging me has been the fact that AG contacted her coffee group on Monday to let them know she would be too sick to attend on Wednesday morning. Why didn't she wait until the following day, after she could confirm that she was still quite ill? She also put off PK and his wife until Thursday. It's almost as if she wanted to make sure she didn't see anyone on Tuesday or Wednesday.


This also has been bothering me. *I* think the killer FORCED AG to put people off because he had her in the house alone. The car also is bothering me - why did LE take away AG's Camaro? Perhaps the killer was in her car (maybe while she was visiting the pet cemetery?), forced her to drive both of them home and then forced her to put off all people who might catch on.

I also think it was a stranger/stalker. And I'm not ruling out the killer of SV because LE said that SV's killer would 'likely move away from the Orangeville area'.:twocents:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Timeline:

~ Dec 22/23: Vet last saw AG. AG visited his home to pick up medicine for her dogs.

Sat. Dec 25: PK calls AG to arrange to drop off the cake. AG says she is too ill, and they arrange to drop it off the following Thursday morning instead.

Sun. Dec 26: AG spends Boxing Day at LV’s house. AG was “feeling under the weather”.

Mon. Dec 27: LV takes soup over to AG’s house, as AG was feeling ill. This is the last known time that AG was seen alive.
• AG sends email to her coffee group to let them know she won’t be attending their Wed. morning get-together as she is ill.
• AG sends an email to LF in the evening. (link to “Amazing Grace&#8221

Wed. Dec 29 (2:30 am): The Ferguson’s dogs start barking wildly.

Wed. Dec 29: DS arrested for carrying a concealed weapon.

Thur Dec 30: Just before 11:00 am, PK finds AG’s body when he goes to drop the cake off. His wife doesn’t come as she is working. PK calls police.

Sun. Jan 2: police converge on barn @ 347 Lynden Rd.

Feb 2011: DS charged with the murder of AG.

June 2011: Forensics come back negative. Charges against DS dropped.

If we closely look at this timeline, AG's killer would have had to enter her home/car late 27th Dec. or early morning 28th Dec.

Another question: Was AG feeling "under the weather" physically OR had she been receiving upsetting phone calls, e-mails, or she saw a man hanging about her home/driveway? Perhaps she was concerned for her dogs' safety? Either way, *I* still think he had her trapped in her house for a while before the killing. Just my opinion......

 

[Missizzy]

IIRC, there was some extremely contradictory statements concerning the last time Ms. Gleave saw her vet. She stopped by his house to pick up meds (which I still find a bit odd) and then in an interview, he stated that he'd seen her after that, I believe. I'll have to go back and look. It might be nothing at all but I remember thinking it was strange.

 

[Missizzy]

Hmmm. This might be nothing at all. It could just be a figure of speech. But I think that two days is different than a week.

This link no longer works:

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/Art...aspx?e=2915258

But, in Post #139 on Thread #1, I snipped this from it:

"...Retired veterinarian DC of Ancaster said Gleave was at his house just days before her body was found Dec. 30...."


and then there's this, which also does not open for me:

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-audrey-gleave

From the same post, here's a snip:

"....“They won’t be euthanized,” said Gleave’s veterinarian, DC, who knew her for 30 years and last saw her a couple of days before Christmas...."

 

[dotr]

these links should work...
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/309093--friends-remember-audrey-gleave
Gleave’s two German Shepherds, Togi and Schatzen, were in a different area of the house than where Gleave’s body was found.

They were originally taken to animal control, but have been taken to a kennel where German Shepherds are bred. After being assessed, they will be adopted out.

“They won’t be euthanized,” said Gleave’s veterinarian, D C, who knew her for 30 years and last saw her a couple of days before Christmas.

Dogs were very important in Gleave’s life, he said. She would visit the graves of former pets at the Ancaster Pet Cemetery every two or three weeks.

http://www.ancasternews.com/news/article/227090
Veterinarian D C cared for Gleave’s pets for over 30 years. Just days before her death, Gleave visited Cs’ home to pick up some medications for her two German Shepherd dogs, Togi and Schatzen.

“They were her life, those dogs,” said C.

Collins, who retired as a vet from Mountain Animal Hospital in 1994, is also the founder of the Ancaster Pet Cemetery on Book Road West. Gleave had three or four pets buried at the cemetery and often visited the site to pay her respects.

“She was just an all-around good friend,” said Collins