CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[greenthumb]

Since PK knew Audrey had been ill, maybe he just thought she couldn't make it to the phone at that time and figured she would be home and just went over. Then since she didn't answer the door, he may have wanted to see if her car was in the garage and opened the garage. He was probably worried about her. He was not just a handyman but a friend.

I agree... I find it quite plausible that PK and AG became friends as they worked together in her yard. She was a teacher... interested in younger people & their education/development... so I expect she would express interest in his life & pursuits, and over time, they would get to know one another quite well.
With regard to why AG did not make the cake - PK indicated that she said she 'was too lazy'. That rings true to me, as well - how many single people, living alone, make themselves a whole cake? But, if it was a favourite recipe, I can see that she may tell PK to not buy a gift for her for Christmas, just make her one of those yummy cakes.
PK did indicate that he called her to say he was running late... but did he perhaps call her from his cell phone as he was on his way to her place? If so, I do not find it strange that he continued on... he had the cake to deliver, after all, and they had an 'appointment' set up, he knew she was expecting him... so he may have figured she was unable to answer at that moment (in the shower, in the washroom, etc).

 

[LeftCoaster]

I agree... I find it quite plausible that PK and AG became friends as they worked together in her yard. She was a teacher... interested in younger people & their education/development... so I expect she would express interest in his life & pursuits, and over time, they would get to know one another quite well.
With regard to why AG did not make the cake - PK indicated that she said she 'was too lazy'. That rings true to me, as well - how many single people, living alone, make themselves a whole cake? But, if it was a favourite recipe, I can see that she may tell PK to not buy a gift for her for Christmas, just make her one of those yummy cakes.
PK did indicate that he called her to say he was running late... but did he perhaps call her from his cell phone as he was on his way to her place? If so, I do not find it strange that he continued on... he had the cake to deliver, after all, and they had an 'appointment' set up, he knew she was expecting him... so he may have figured she was unable to answer at that moment (in the shower, in the washroom, etc).

I am grateful to you, GT, for the observation that a friendship had developed between Audrey and the young man she chose for a handyman, and agree that's probably how it was.:twocents: As much as some aspects of the cake delivery and discovery of the crime scene are not clear or contradictory, I genuinely want to believe that any role PK had in this was as a potential 'fall guy' for the real perp.

It seems at some point, either here on WS or in one of the MSM accounts, PK said it was a piece of the cake, not an entire cake, that he was delivering to Audrey that awful morning. That small detail has stood out to me throughout the 'cake debate' we have carried on here...don't know why, but it does.

It also is quite plausible, Audrey being a stickler for timely appearances, that PK called en route and took the lack of response to be innocuous - if Audrey had a call-waiting function, for example, it could have meant she was on another line. Or, if the usual practice was to meet in the garage, as we've been told, perhaps PK thought she might already be out there waiting for him.

So many questions, so few answers. Makes me:nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts::nuts:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

LeftCoaster - would you please give us the link where the handyman indicated that it was merely a piece of the cake he was delivering?

Thanks so much; I'll look for that info as well!!



I also believe that he was much more than a mere handyman in his own eyes/mind. To Audrey.......maybe not so much.

:twocents:

-------------

ETA:
Quoted from greenthumb:

<<< I can see that she may tell PK to not buy a gift for her for Christmas, just make her one of those yummy cakes. >>>


Why do we all seem to think he brought an entire cake????????????????????

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I found the article, NOT the words from the handyman himself:


http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

<<< He turned his silver 2002 Hyundai Accent off Indian Trail into the driveway, past the small pond on the right and larger one on the left, and parked on the far side as he always did. He was bringing her some of her favourite cake. It was about 11 a.m. >>>


The term "some" can be taken many ways:

'I'll bring you some muffins.' Now is that two muffins OR two dozen muffins?

Can anyone find the quote/post from the handyman himself here at WS?

Thanks!

 

[LeftCoaster]

I found the article, NOT the words from the handyman himself:


http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

<<< He turned his silver 2002 Hyundai Accent off Indian Trail into the driveway, past the small pond on the right and larger one on the left, and parked on the far side as he always did. He was bringing her some of her favourite cake. It was about 11 a.m. >>>


The term "some" can be taken many ways:

'I'll bring you some muffins.' Now is that two muffins OR two dozen muffins?

Can anyone find the quote/post from the handyman himself here at WS?

Thanks!

I've been back and forth through just about everything printed, Stone - the search continues! - looking for what I am sure was PK saying he brought a piece of cake to Audrey. It's possible I am confusing it with what you quoted from Jon Wells' series, and if so, yes, "some" is fairly subjective. :dunno:

 

[greenthumb]

LeftCoaster - would you please give us the link where the handyman indicated that it was merely a piece of the cake he was delivering?

Why do we all seem to think he brought an entire cake????????????????????

Is there some significance to it being either a whole cake or a peice of cake? Does that matter in some way? Sorry, I am missing the importance of that detail...

 

[LeftCoaster]

Is there some significance to it being either a whole cake or a peice of cake? Does that matter in some way? Sorry, I am missing the importance of that detail...

:waitasec:

In the big picture, GT, it's a minor detail. My reason for putting it out there is one of logistics - just picturing the handling of a full cake vs. a smaller box or plate when keying in garage door opener code, making the discovery, and so on. And I was sure I'd seen something to the effect of it having been a piece. The only item I've found to support that is a bit of a dodgy one:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65566643/Audrey-Gleave-Murder

It's down somewhat in the timeline of events. Could be a matter of wording as so much else has been. However, definitely does little toward solution of this mystery.:fence:

 

[dreamwatcher]

For what it is worth, I have always believed that PK and Audrey became close friends.
I think that Audrey being a retired teacher, would take him under her wing at first. And eventually even looked upon him as a son that she never had, or a nephew.
Definately was closer to him than she was to her friend of 30 years.
I think she leaned on PK for many things as well.
DW

 

[Sillybilly]

:waitasec:

In the big picture, GT, it's a minor detail. My reason for putting it out there is one of logistics - just picturing the handling of a full cake vs. a smaller box or plate when keying in garage door opener code, making the discovery, and so on. And I was sure I'd seen something to the effect of it having been a piece. The only item I've found to support that is a bit of a dodgy one:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65566643/Audrey-Gleave-Murder

It's down somewhat in the timeline of events. Could be a matter of wording as so much else has been. However, definitely does little toward solution of this mystery.:fence:

FWIW, in his posts at WS, PK refers to it as "the cake". I agree that whether it was a piece of cake, or the 12" stoellen doesn't matter ... because either could be easily held in one hand while keying in the garage code with the other hand (we aren't talking a 3' tall, intricately decorated wedding cake here).

JMO

ETA: It would be interesting to know what the ground conditions were at the time PK arrived at Audrey's. IOW, if the ground was still quite icy from the freezing fog that occurred around midnight, it would lend credence to him initially thinking she had slipped on some ice, and might explain IF he did not have the cake in hand upon exiting his vehicle / entering the garage code.

 

[Woodland]

Have always wondered exactly how DLS came to be seen in the restroom of a bank, with a knife, days before AG's body was found with stab wounds. Not that I think DLS had anything to do with this crime.

That always struck me as clean and convenient for whoever killed AG. If a bank employee reported DLS had a knife on their premises, did the employee see it? Or did someone else report seeing it to the bank employee? If so, who was that person?

I'm thinking the details should be a matter of public record since he was convicted on that particular charge.

 

[2soccermom]

"He was bringing her a piece of her favourite cake. It was about 11:00 a.m. He did
not go to Audrey's front door. He always entered through the garage. He carried
the cake from his car to the twin automatic garage doors outside. He punched in the ..."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Hzi...GoDQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cake&f=false

Also: John Hartig's account gives anecdotes from his experience with Audrey where she refers to PK as her young friend and that his (JH's) photography apparatus wasn't good enough for her young man.... I'll look for the link. So it seems not only in PK's head that the two were friends. I don't know who is or is not guilty in AG's death, but I don't understand why it's difficult to believe Audrey cared for the man who was not ONLY the handyman but a person for whom she clearly saw herself a mentor. MOO.

 

[2soccermom]

"A year or two ago, she told me Phil was getting married and was looking for a wedding photographer. She quizzed me about my equipment. At the time, I didn't have a backup camera and I received a tart e-mail that this would not do for her young man, that if I was a professional photographer, I certainly needed a backup camera. I lost the possibility of that wedding gig right there and then. I would have looked forward to doing this particular gig but I just didn't have the equipment that more lucrative photographers in Niagara had. I bought an extra camera for my weddings the following year."

http://johnhartig.info/12-headlines.html

 

[2soccermom]

Such welcome news in Kera Freeland's and Kelsey Felker's cases ....
Holding hope from both that AG will see her justice, too.

 

[LeftCoaster]

"He was bringing her a piece ofher favourite cake. It was about 11:00 a.m.He did
not go to Audrey's front door.Healways entered through the garage. He carried
thecake from hiscartothe twin automatic garage doors outside. He punched in the ..."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Hzi...GoDQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cake&f=false

Also: John Hartig's account gives anecdotes from his experience with Audrey where she refers to PK as her young friend and that his (JH's) photography apparatus wasn't good enough for her young man.... I'll look for the link. So it seems not only in PK's head that the two were friends. I don't know who is or is not guilty in AG's death, but I don't understand why it's difficult to believe Audrey cared for the man who was not ONLY the handyman but a person for whom she clearly saw herself a mentor. MOO.

2SM, :yourock: Okay, so I didn't imagine the reference to the "piece" of cake, after all!:yesss:

No offense to N_S_U - plenty of respect actually - but I think there's a developing consensus here that the friendship between Audrey and PK was a solid one that had developed over a few years, not that hard to get our heads around. If anything, it looks as though some mentoring was going on.:twocents:

 

[2soccermom]

lol, last message tonight, I promise. Woodland: I just wanted to thank you for your gracious reply to my last post (before tonight). You asked me what my ideas are here: in general, I do see merit in all the theories and POIs posed here (although not for all the same reasons ... you can see at times I have very different ideas on some of the explanations given). But I can see how many of the postulations on the usual suspects make sense. Myself, I don't espouse the $ theory, although of course I can't rule it out. It just seems like LE would have an arrest by now, because these folks don't seem like criminal masterminds; none of them, at least IMO, are so smart that they could pull this off for this length of time.... But perhaps I am mistaken.

I agree that AG's killer knew her. This was not a random attack. But I guess I buy into the idea that whoever could do this must be a very unusual person: able to commit such a horrific action and still able to live a day-to-day existence. Lots of ex-partners or young or other relatives who murder for passion or profit often give themselves away by their behaviour. But of course I guess I should reconcile that a psychopath after AG's property who takes pleasure in murder would fit both motives.

 

[2soccermom]

lol, LeftCoaster --
I was typing as you were posting. Gawsh! *blush* thank you. You didn't imagine it. But we can't know if Wells' details are correct or the license of journalistic interpretation

Sorry. Already I have broken my promise above. But I have been away from AG's site (tho' not WS) for a bit, and so have much to say

Again, I don't know what is or is not PK's involvement in this terrible crime. But I posted a lot in the now-removed threads about "appropriate affect" and trauma; it is not at all surprising that PK might not have seen the scene at first for its horror: it's a classic coping mechanism of the psyche to deny what one sees. It is equally consistent with trauma narratives that his later reports will seem different. I am not discounting that there may be other discrepencies or inconsistencies that merit scrutiny: I don't know. But some of the things that seem most questionable are quite consistent with direct and vicarious trauma.MOO

 

[LeftCoaster]

...We can't know if Wells' details are correct or the license of journalistic interpretation

RSBM

Exactly what I have wondered more than once while combing through the "Wells version"! Some of the anecdotes seem a bit embellished :moo:. He wouldn't be the first author to have committed that sin. At the same time, he's humanized Audrey Gleave - it really disturbed me in those first days, as the news broke of a vicious murder practically next door, that she was described as this oddball, eccentric hermit. A lack of close family to mourn her, sure, but as I recall there was a pretty good turnout at the vigil and memorial service, and the accolades from former students seemed heartfelt, too. A brilliant, if quirky, and otherwise fairly typical senior lady living by herself - and a terrible death that I agree would be traumatic to witness as the 'first on scene' as her friend and handyman was.

Okay, clock has chimed twelve and it's time to call it a night. :seeya:

 

[Hazel]

Hazel when I click on your link above which says 'showing 17 posts' (or something close to that), here's what I get:

<<< Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.>>>

:waitasec:

Is my laptop playing games with me again?:blushing:

It's not your laptop NSU, lol. :waitasec: I just tried that link and got that same message.

Apparently, the search ID number is not specific for that page result, as I got a different number when I searched right now.

TRY THIS OTHER LINK, I think it should work
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/search.php?do=finduser&u=76290

If it doesn't work, then best way to get the list of anyone's postings, is to just click on their username, and select "Find all posts by ...." from drop-down menu. There is also a link on Profile page.

 

[Sillybilly]

Wouldn't JW have his interviews with PK recorded?

 

[greenthumb]

She told me that she had a young fellow helping her around the house since she couldn't do a lot of things anymore. She was talking about P K whom she trusted and highly regarded and employed as a handyman around the house and the garden.

http://johnhartig.info/12-headlines.html

BBM, snipped by me

I believe this statement is true... and based on that, and the fact that I find it improbable that PK would set himself up to discover AG's body if he had any part in her death, I think he is an unlikely suspect.

While his account of his gruesome discovery may not account for his every action on that day, I do not find this incongruous with an innocent man relating a story that must be very upsetting to him... and I think it is impossible to judge if his reaction/actions on that day were what would be 'expected' in that situation. Few of us have found ourselves faced with such devastating and frightening circumstances as unexpectedly finding our friend deceased. But I have experienced times of great stress and emotional turmoil, and if later required to recall every single detail of that time period in detail, I think I may not have done very well at all... because my mind was reeling, I was moving on auto-pilot, my mind was not processing things in my normal way... and I became overwhelmingly focused, had tunnel vision, so to speak. All of this is just to say, I don't find PK's account of that day suspicious - despite that fact that it may not contain every minute detail that we would prefer, it may not 'seem' logical in every way, it may not explain everything satisfactorily.

I may be wrong, but for now, I give him benefit of the doubt as I see him as a true friend of AG's. So then, the burning question is - who did this?