CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #9

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from the recent article in The Spec:
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

"Alex and I are strong believers, and there is nothing that would prohibit a plea out of desperation for salvation that would go unanswered … I know what reason tells me, and what I hope for."
<bbm>

Not sure where PK was coming from with the above comments, as I highly doubt Audrey of little faith was thinking of making a desperate plea for salvation while she was being murdered. I believe her killer is the one who needs to be delivered from sin.

Amazing Grace ... more about redemption, salvation
 
from the recent article in The Spec:
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

<bbm>

Not sure where PK was coming from with the above comments, as I highly doubt Audrey of little faith was thinking of making a desperate plea for salvation while she was being murdered. I believe her killer is the one who needs to be delivered from sin.

Amazing Grace ... more about redemption, salvation

Would make sense if it were about the killer but PK makes no reference to this (or does he... could that have been some kind of cryptic self-reassurance that salvation can still be had regardless of circumstances?). These two statements also stood out to me (also from Hamilton Spec article linked):

"But you have to be OK with an open-ended answer. I mean nobody knows right? Certainly, Audrey's soul was not in my hands."

&

"Audrey was so cautious … she always stayed inside, and if she was going out at night, she was going out with the puppies. And those dogs would tear any stranger limb from limb."


Those parts about AGs' soul & the dogs... Audreys' soul in PKs' hands?? Wonder how easily those dogs could have been baited into their confines? Maybe they'd tear up a stranger but what about a "family friend" (yes I know that PK & LV didn't like them/dogs weren't friendly)?

What precipitated the smashing of the mailbox? Damage to property is a massive red flag that someone has a problem & the damage is a warning. AG was a smart woman, surely she must have been suspicious? Especially considering the "premonition" AG had about being attacked in her home. What happened in the weeks prior to the mail box damage?

What was AG doing out in the garage in her coat & shoes, but no purse/keys/wallet/cigarettes/coffee/anything? Why would AG confine the dogs & then go out to the garage?

Even if the s. assault were staged, it still indicates someone close to the victim. Taking of trophies/souvenirs is not typical of financially motivated murders unless in the context of blackmail/ransom (based on what I've read, no links atm but can post some if interested). Trophy taking is more of a signature. It would be really difficult to fake or stage & I'm about 99% sure the act itself was gratifying for the perp. I imagine storing such a "trophy" (even souvenirs like jewellery) would be difficult. Disgusting psychopathic
 
I wonder about this:
'Kinsman says police interviewed members of his immediate family and asked to take imprints from shoes belonging to family members, as though testing to see if he wore someone else's footwear on Gleave's property.'

'Police said there was a lot of blood. One detective said she had been stabbed.'

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

Makes me think that LE has footprints from the scene, most likely bloody footprints. Someone most likely with bigger sized shoes than Kinsman.
 
Fwiw, it's my opinion Hamilton LE 'have this one'. Can they ever bring it to court with enough for a conviction? Maybe not, but I suspect they will still do what they can about that.
 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/redemption

redemption in the Bible

The idea running through all these texts, however various their reference, is that of payment made for our redemption. The debt against us is not viewed as simply cancelled, but is fully paid. Christ's blood or life, which he surrendered for them, is the "ransom" by which the deliverance of his people from the servitude of sin and from its penal consequences is secured. It is the plain doctrine of Scripture that "Christ saves us neither by the mere exercise of power, nor by his doctrine, nor by his example, nor by the moral influence which he exerted, nor by any subjective influence on his people, whether natural or mystical, but as a satisfaction to divine justice, as an expiation for sin, and as a ransom from the curse and authority of the law, thus reconciling us to God by making it consistent with his perfection to exercise mercy toward sinners" (Hodge's Systematic Theology).


I tried, but can't really follow those religious thoughts ...


AG's murder a punishment for aught ...?? A compensation for injustice in some form ...? Injustice perhaps: too much money, an attractive car (especially in the eyes of a young man, who never was allowed to drive it), a magnificent plot with a nice house (wonderful for a family with children), great mental abilities (not even fully utilized), too much condescension unloaded to one single person, .....?

If you read incomplete posts, then excuse me: general power outage due to maintenance in my area.
 
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(07)00541-5/fulltext?mobileUi=0

Estimation of individual's stature is an important parameter in forensic examinations. Examination of footprints provides important evidence in a crime scene investigation and helps in estimation of stature of a criminal. Analysis of bare footprints is often carried out in developing countries like India where the footprints are frequently recovered at the scene of crime. The present study attempts to reconstruct stature in a sample of 2080 bilateral footprints and foot outlines collected from 1040 adult male Gujjars of North India ranging in age from 18 to 30 years. Bilateral footprints and foot outlines of each individual were measured for ten and eight measurements, respectively. The results indicate that T-2 length (length of the footprint from heel to 2nd toe) and T-5 length in footprint and T-1 length, T-4 length and breadth at ball in foot outline show statistically significant bilateral asymmetry. Significant and positive correlation coefficients exist between stature and various measurements of footprint and foot outline (P&#8197;<&#8197;0.001 and 0.01) except toe 1&#8211;5 angle of declination which shows insignificant correlation coefficient. The highest correlation coefficients were shown by the toe length measurements (0.82&#8211;0.87) indicating a close relationship between the stature and these measurements. Regression analysis presents smaller mean errors (2.12&#8211;3.92&#8197;cm) in estimation of stature than those of division factor method (3.29&#8211;4.66&#8197;cm), thus, gives better reliability of estimate than the latter. The regression equations were also checked for their accuracy by comparing the actual stature with estimated stature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_footwear_evidence

This can be done visually or by comparison with evidence in a database; both methods focus heavily on pattern recognition and brand or logo marks. Information about the footwear can be gained from the analysis of wear patterns which are dependent on angle of footfall and weight distribution. Detailed examination of footwear impressions can help to link a specific piece of footwear to a footwear imprint as each shoe will have unique characteristics.

http://www.forensicresources.co.uk/footwear-analysis.php

The analysis of footwear can place a person at a crime scene, either by the tread marks left in a footprint at the scene, or via trace evidence that may have been caught up in the tread of the shoes. A crucial part of investigative footwear analysis for our experts is that the shoe soles indicate a person's unique walking style*. For example those with high arches or those whose feet &#8216;roll inwards' will have unique wearing pattern on the soles of their shoes.

*... also with "borrowed" foot wear ...
 
What precipitated the smashing of the mailbox? Damage to property is a massive red flag that someone has a problem & the damage is a warning.

by whiterhino #301


Could it be, the warning was against the handyman (not against Audrey) who had to do the repair respectively the
renewal of the mail box?
 
Further brainstorming:

Was PK ridiculed by others, because he was many years AG's "handyman"?
It would depend on AG's reputation within a special group (don't know which group and why).

Did a friend become identified with this AG's reputation and suffered?

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2123220-audrey-s-case-gets-colder/

How many times did she replay the song, which is about redemption, about having the soul delivered from despair through the mercy of God?

Audrey Gleave wasn't religious, at least not by appearances. But she asked questions about faith, and was curious about all things. But then no one knew what flowed under the still waters.

The rest of her life numbered mere hours after absorbing the vibrations of that song.

bbm

Maybe Audrey didn't ask questions only but had also several answers on the subject? Those answers didn't have to be what a believer wants to hear or respect or think about. Shortly after Christmas, there was more occasion than at another time in the year to talk about questions of faith (Christmas sermon etc.). - We can't place ourself into the mind of a murderer and I think, not everybody is able to place himself into the mind of a very very religious person.
 
From what I understand, the version of "Amazing Grace" that AG emailed was an instrumental version. Not sure if that's significant but considering how loaded the lyrics are & how scientific AG was, I feel like that could mean something...? Maybe just means it really was AG who emailed the link? Maybe she liked that version specifically bc there are no lyrics about God? Did AG have a YouTube account? Anything she viewed or linked via the "watch page" would appear in her view history on her YT account (assuming she had one & was signed in).

Just in reply to those wondering if AG sent the link or if it were someone else (based on estimated t.o.d & those who were emailed the link such as one of AGs' neighbours). The YT account history might have provided an answer. Another thing that would indicate it was AG who sent the emails, the fact that she apparently didn't do group emails. Everyone was contacted individually. I remember thinking it was odd that AG didn't just send the link in a group email until I read about her "email rules" (such as only using her nickname etc).

We've gone over the cake & PKs' motions that day (30th) but what was everyone doing on the 27th? I can somewhat understand why someone would intentionally place themselves back at the scene & even go as far as understanding why someone (a guilty party) might want to be the one to "call it in" but it just seems too risky, elaborate & unnecessary for anyone close to AG & who had half a brain to see how wacky that would actually be.

Fwiw, I find it odd that although the s. assault was staged & staging typically indicates that the perpetrator is close to the victim, there seem to be no other signs of "closeness" or guilt/regret. AG was just left there in the garage to be found whenever, by whomever. Hard to comprehend that the attack itself could be the motive but imo it's the only one that makes sense.
 
Re staging "s. assault":

Who would do it:

An elderly man who pretends to be a young perp? A gay man who pretends to be a hetero perp? A hetero man who pretends to be a gay perp? A not at all sexual interested man who pretends to be a sexual interested perp?
 
From what I understand, the version of "Amazing Grace" that AG emailed was an instrumental version. Not sure if that's significant but considering how loaded the lyrics are & how scientific AG was, I feel like that could mean something...? Maybe just means it really was AG who emailed the link? Maybe she liked that version specifically bc there are no lyrics about God? Did AG have a YouTube account? Anything she viewed or linked via the "watch page" would appear in her view history on her YT account (assuming she had one & was signed in).

Just in reply to those wondering if AG sent the link or if it were someone else (based on estimated t.o.d & those who were emailed the link such as one of AGs' neighbours). The YT account history might have provided an answer. Another thing that would indicate it was AG who sent the emails, the fact that she apparently didn't do group emails. Everyone was contacted individually. I remember thinking it was odd that AG didn't just send the link in a group email until I read about her "email rules" (such as only using her nickname etc).

We've gone over the cake & PKs' motions that day (30th) but what was everyone doing on the 27th? I can somewhat understand why someone would intentionally place themselves back at the scene & even go as far as understanding why someone (a guilty party) might want to be the one to "call it in" but it just seems too risky, elaborate & unnecessary for anyone close to AG & who had half a brain to see how wacky that would actually be.

Fwiw, I find it odd that although the s. assault was staged & staging typically indicates that the perpetrator is close to the victim, there seem to be no other signs of "closeness" or guilt/regret. AG was just left there in the garage to be found whenever, by whomever. Hard to comprehend that the attack itself could be the motive but imo it's the only one that makes sense.

See thread #2, post #245 (I think). Apparently it was a youtube video of Andre Rieu's rendition of Amazing Grace.
 
Re staging "s. assault":

Who would do it:

An elderly man who pretends to be a young perp? A gay man who pretends to be a hetero perp? A hetero man who pretends to be a gay perp? A not at all sexual interested man who pretends to be a sexual interested perp?

Probably unlikely but maybe not a man at all? That would fit in with the "financial gain as motive" theory but then taking souvenirs/trophies doesn't go together with that theory. I mean, I have no formal education in criminology/psychology/forensics (probably self evident lol) so maybe my ideas are incorrect?

What I really don't get is why only stage sexual assault & nothing else? No fake forced entry, no fake struggle or staged robbery. If you have the forethought to stage a scene, why only s. assault? On one hand LE said the crime had sexual components but then they say the sexual assault was staged. Perhaps the perpetrator has problems with sexual performance?

Again I'm stuck on the part about the torn pants. Torn clothing with an absence of sexual activity = staged sexual assault, is this the line of thinking? Why not attempted s. assault or hesitation/consideration of sexual assault with no follow through? I'm sure trained professionals know how to tell the difference but *how* do they tell?

Re: The mailbox as a way to get to PK, I'm not sure I lean that way (all due respect). Unless there was other strange damage to the property that PK had to deal with? Kind of personal & OT but I kept finding broken glass & rusty nails in my garden. I also have a neighbour who likes to watch me garden & is constantly buying me garden "gifts", offering drinks (alcohol) & says I remind him of a girl from his high school days. Short of installing cameras, I can't prove my neighbour is putting glass in my garden but the police agreed that it's weird & offered to speak to my neighbour. The TL/DR (too long/didn't read): A neighbour/acquaintence/stalker/psychopath can become fixated or twisted up over the slightest thing that the victim might not even be aware of. Tampering with the victims' property is like a sick prank & they enjoy seeing the reaction. If someone were intentionally causing damage for either AG or PK to fix, they'd probably want to be around to hear or see the reaction. Along that same vein, sneaking up on AG & violently attacking her when she was vulnerable is kind of the ultimate in terms of achieving a terrified reaction.

Regarding the subject of computer viruses: Any way of knowing which viruses were sent to AG & by whom? More specifically remote access/admin trojans or key logging software. Someone could still get into AGs' email (to send Amazing Grace... whhy bother?) if her personal computer was infected although I'd think AG was smart enough to infect a test computer & not her own.

Apologies for another lengthy post!
 
Audrey's most precious treasure might well have been her brain, no wonder someone on these threads once wondered if AG had any connection to Einstein.
Maybe Audrey just felt close to him, considering his brain is at McM.
Brain piece as perverse trophy?
imo.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...brain-continues-to-fascinate-in-hamilton.html

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2216816-audrey-s-story-continues/
"Albert Einstein&#8217;s brain continues to fascinate &#8212; in Hamilton
A piece of the physicist&#8217;s brain resides at McMaster, where new methods could shed light on what made him a genius".

"When she taught at Hill Park, Barton and Westdale secondary schools, Audrey was known for her quirky sense of humour. She kept a picture of Albert Einstein in class and called him &#8220;my boyfriend.&#8221;

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2111178-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/
"What about the fact that Audrey's parents were from Eastern Europe and Audrey had posted a picture of Einstein in her classroom? Einstein left Nazi Germany in 1933, &#8220;only four years before Ms. Gleave's birth,&#8221; wrote one commentator. &#8220;I have to wonder if there could have been some family or professional connection between Einstein and her parents.&#8221;
 
Audrey's most precious treasure might well have been her brain, no wonder someone on these threads once wondered if AG had any connection to Einstein.
Maybe Audrey just felt close to him, considering his brain is at McM.
Brain piece as perverse trophy?
imo.
<rsbm>

Based on the wording in JW's article, I'm inclined to think it wasn't AG's brain that was the souvenir.

from:
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2215939-who-is-audrey-gleave/

He spoke of a vicious stabbing but did not talk about other weapons &#8212; at least one other had been used &#8212; or the nature of the &#8220;sexual component&#8221; (it had included a perverse act that went beyond a conventional assault; the killer had taken something from the victim as though making off with a souvenir.)
 
In response to Germany's post here Re staging "s. assault":

Who would do it:

An elderly man who pretends to be a young perp? A gay man who pretends to be a hetero perp? A hetero man who pretends to be a gay perp? A not at all sexual interested man who pretends to be a sexual interested perp?


Maybe a man who leads everyone to believe his impotent but indeed is not?
 

This is what has been confusing me: LE used the term "souvenir" but body parts are considered trophies it seems. Most of the (legit & trustworthy) articles & literature I've read make this distinction. Not sure whether hair is classified as a trophy or souvenir? Guessing trophy.

Morbid question: When a body part is taken & that part is sexual/reproductive in nature (a nipple for example... please forgive me ok I hate asking), could this also be considered defeminization?

From what I understand, AG was not missing any jewelry on her person (no earrings or necklaces) so I am assuming that when LE say "souvenir" & "sexual component" they really mean trophies.

^ To Patience: Not very many men would go around letting ppl know he is impotent, nor would many fake impotency (idek how that would be accomplished lol). My thinking is that the overkill stabbing & lack of actual sexual assault = sexual dysfunction/frustration.

This is why I question the staging: perhaps it appears to be staging but what if it were a genuine attempt and sexual dysfunction interferred so s.a was abandoned? Just speculating & reading into things.
 
In reading the John Douglas article, I get the impression that "trophies and souvenirs" would be pretty much interchangeable. If there is a fine distinction in homicide investigation, I doubt Hrab (or was it JW?) could distinguish either way given the perp and motive were unknown at the time that information was released. IOW, without knowing motive, it would be impossible for LE to determine why an item was taken (whether body part or other, whether souvenir for fond recollection or trophy as in an "AHA, got ya" type of mindset/motive).

IF it was in fact a body part, IMO that would bump the perp into the sadistic category (not like any of the categories are warm and fuzzy).
 
"a perverse act that went beyond a conventional assault"

http://www.lacan.com/conformper.htm

The Conformity of Perversion

To the pervert, the problem is not repressed desire; desire is, rather, the law to the pervert, and therefore there is no discordance between desire and law. The Other's desire is the law. The Other is therefore not just the place of morals and the cultural law but also the reverse side of morals in the form of the demand: enjoy, thou shalt covet thy neighbor's house. The law is the reason for its own transgression.13 The pervert can stay cool and make his moves elegantly and equilibristically in society, because the compulsive transgression of the law goes on in secret and at other times. Therefore Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde are recurring metaphors to describe the pervert.14 'There is a time and a place for every thing' could be the motto of the pervert, in contrast to the neurotic, who is rather ill-timed, who precipitates and is an embarrassment, awkward, and irritating. The lack of guilt in perverts is striking: they obey orders. Guilt and doubt are dubious privileges of neurosis. The bizarre logic which psychoanalysis has shown consists in that the fewer actual actions, the more renunciation, the more the thumbscrew of guilt is haunting the neurotic.15

Don't know whether it may help us .....
 
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2111178-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

" Two people spoke at the service. One was Phil Kinsman. His voice broke as he spoke:

“I know private is a word that has often been used to describe Audrey, but I'm amazed at how many people she affected in her life. I want to share one small story: I remember the first time Audrey ever hugged me. Understand, she's a private person, but even more so with physical affection.

“ I remember I was over at her house, we had spent the entire day planting flowers; she loved flowers. She shared with me all the research she had done.

“ At the end of day, we were both exhausted and a bit frustrated and she said to me point blank, ‘Well, did you learn something today or not?' And I said of course I did. The way she left us is tragic, but in these situations of chaos, it's instinctive to ask why, to look for answers. I prefer to just be so thankful she left us with a lesson, that our time is so short. Every moment we can spend together in love, and cherish together, (it's) so important to do that.”

Months later, Phil talked to a Hamilton Spectator writer about his relationship with Audrey. He told the story of her new mailbox. About a month before she died, vandals had busted up her old one, he said. She “hated the guts” of whoever did it. She bought a new mailbox, and when she discovered that a part was missing, she recruited Phil to drive with her to the hardware store.

Audrey found the spare part on a shelf and stuffed it inside her big parka. She had Phil run interference, make sure no one was watching, and they scurried out the door. All this, even though she could have simply asked for the part at the counter.

“She was so excited, it was her big night,” Phil said. “It was awesome.”

Thanks for posting that dotr. I had read that before and had thoughts about it that I wanted to get out of my system, and then I was unable to locate it again.

Imo, it is telling (and disturbing) for someone speaking publicly at a memorial about someone he/she purportedly cared a great deal about, about this person special to him/her who had died in a horrible manner at the hands of an unknown cold-blooded murderer, the perpetrator and circumstances of which remain a mystery, and then hedge his/her comments of such situation being a tragedy with, 'The way she left us is tragic, BUT in these situations of chaos, it's instinctive to ask why, to look for answers. I prefer to just be so thankful she left us with a lesson, that our time is so short.'

Who says something like that? I would think that most people whose dear friend had such a gruesome, premature end to her life, would be haunted by the whys, whos, hows, whens, what could have been different, could I have somehow helped, did I miss noticing something/someone, what kind of vengeance would cause such brutality, how could AG have inspired such vengeance, what if I had visited at a different time, etc. BUT AG's dear and trusted friend preferred to just instead think about time being so short.

I'm sorry for your loss, BUT .... The situation was tragic, BUT .... AG was a great person, BUT .... The seasoned detective said it was the worst in 20 years, BUT .... for me, the 'BUT' word takes away from the stated perception of tragedy.

How could someone who was close to an elderly woman living alone who was brutally murdered in her own home over the Christmas holiday season NOT want to know why, or to have answers?

I would love to have that guy from 'statement analysis' to take a look at some of the comments made. The one about not knowing if he felt AG would have gone to heaven or hell also. That really wasn't a tough question, imho. In comparison to most other victims whose situations we sleuth around here, AG is one of the purer ones.
 
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