Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

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Satchie said:
That was a such a nightmare crime, just ghastly. I don't doubt that sort of thing could happen to a wealthy family in Toronto, I just think there would be evidence that police would have spotted. That kind of criminal is very careless: he left pizza boxes, as I recall, lots of evidence.

For something to be meticulously planned and carried out so as to fool police to suspect suicide, that's what I have trouble with.
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Yes, there was lots evidence in that case. I have trouble seeing how a double murder could be carried out to simulate suicide too. But I was just responding to the OP’s contention that a motive HAD to involve both Barry and Honey, and I was using the Washington DC case as an example. He could be the target and her death could even have been to torture him. I’m not saying that’s the case, but just counteracting dogmatic statements. Just because two people were murdered doesn’t necessarily mean that the motive involved both of them. It could, but it’s not a given. Based on an article I posted above about how Canadian LE handles murder-suicides, I’ll be very surprised if we ever find out what really happened, unless it is an outside murderer.
 
Satchie said:
So if there's no evidence whatever of an external person coming into the home (from external cameras, security alarms on doors, etc), they have to look at another scenario to explain the deaths, no matter how statistically improbable it might or might not be.
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They didn't say there wasn't evidence of an external person coming into the home. They've said (per the Washington Post article) there was "no sign of forced entry." Of course that can mean someone had a key, or they were known to the Shermans and were let inside, or they were good enough at B&E that they didn't leave an obvious sign of forced entry. The police didn't say anything about camera coverage, either inside or outside the home.

Agreed 100% that we should look at the case, rather than what statistics say is likely in similar crimes.
 
When someone works all of the hours Sherman did, i doubt if he was a guy who worked on stuff in his house.

Why would a billionaire have rope at his house? What would be the purpose?

My understanding is that suicides are not spontaneous.

Did he go buy rope?

How did he get to hang her? Did he knock her out ?

If she submitted willingly, why?
 
kemo said:
In the US there are approximately 1500 murder/suicides a year. The vast majority involve involved an intimate partner situation where the male is the murderer. Often, the male is significantly older than the female or otherwise perceives his life as going downhill while the female partner is positioned to move ahead. Substance abuse, business failure or other financial problems, or a history of depression or other mental illness are common factors. Being a billionaire does not preclude all such problems but, I would think, “ loss of status or respect”; a motive often implicated in male suicide, would not be a factor in this situation. Still, we really don’t know what goes on “ behind closed doors”.

I am surprised that the Toronto PD were quick is labeling this a murder/suicide. Maybe I just assume that special consideration will be given to the Rich, as it would be in the US. The Coroner’s report should answer a lot of questions but probably not all.


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Maybe LE knew a key fact which has been withheld ? Any medical appointments in the weeks before their death, for example ?
 
Following this tragic case.
Would be interesting to know if anyone else was at the house that day/night ?
 
human said:
When someone works all of the hours Sherman did, i doubt if he was a guy who worked on stuff in his house.

Why would a billionaire have rope at his house? What would be the purpose?
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He might not have used it personally but his housecleaning/maintenance staff would probably keep it around. I doubt he cleaned his pool but I'd be surprised if there weren't pool chemicals on site. Rope has a ton of uses; if Sherman was a former boy scout, I wouldn't be surprised if he just had rope around the house as a creature of habit (heck, I have rope around the house, well paracord.)

Not quite the same, but I carry around a small leatherman with a knife attached to my keychain. People used to ask me why I'd carry a small knife around. Then they bought something at Costco in those impossible-to-open plastic packages, or got a box shipped to them with tape that was hard to tear off, and now they ask if I can open up the package for them. Always prepared.
 
PaulR said:
He might not have used it personally but his housecleaning/maintenance staff would probably keep it around. I doubt he cleaned his pool but I'd be surprised if there weren't pool chemicals on site. Rope has a ton of uses; if Sherman was a former boy scout, I wouldn't be surprised if he just had rope around the house as a creature of habit (heck, I have rope around the house, well paracord.)

Not quite the same, but I carry around a small leatherman with a knife attached to my keychain. People used to ask me why I'd carry a small knife around. Then they bought something at Costco in those impossible-to-open plastic packages, or got a box shipped to them with tape that was hard to tear off, and now they ask if I can open up the package for them. Always prepared.
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Why would a billionaire who works tons of hours have to be prepared? I imagine his preparation was speed dial on his phone.

What purpose is there for a rope in a pool?

What use is there for rope in the home of a billionaire?

I can think of nothing where rope is needed.

He is not hanging clothes. He is not pulling anything with a car. I doubt if they have a clothesline in their house.

I cannot think of a single reason for rope.
 
I know a lot of millionaires and billionaires who have rope around their places. Like many, the Shermans didn’t live like their wealth. He might have done a few things around the house, or maybe related to a hobby or something some household staff had. The rope is a non issue unless it’s a rare type.

Theory: he was getting close to his tell all autobiography and someone didn’t want him to finish it. No forced entry could be 1) he knew the perp, 2) the perp has a weapon or means of controlling him or 3) he left his house unlocked although that doesn’t discount connection to the victims.
 
PaulR said:
They didn't say there wasn't evidence of an external person coming into the home. They've said (per the Washington Post article) there was "no sign of forced entry." Of course that can mean someone had a key, or they were known to the Shermans and were let inside, or they were good enough at B&E that they didn't leave an obvious sign of forced entry. The police didn't say anything about camera coverage, either inside or outside the home.

Agreed 100% that we should look at the case, rather than what statistics say is likely in similar crimes.
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Yes, I'm making some assumptions that may be unwarranted:
- that a house like that has external cameras and a sophisticated security alarm
- that after some 6 or so hours at the scene, they'd have got hold of and checked the external video and alarm data for entries/exits
- that when those comments were made to reporters, the intent was to reassure the neighbourhood there was no murderer on the loose, rather than to share details of the investigation. Actually, this one I'm fairly sure of, LE are keeping details very close to their chest, so it will be very frustrating to try to sleuth.
 
BTW, you don't have to use rope: belt, tie, scarf, extension cord...
 
otto said:
This may well be a murder suicide, and police are being very cautious to pursue a homicide theory to satisfy the family.
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I suspect the police will want to get this right first time because once the bodies are buried exhumation for any reason is going to be very difficult for religious reasons.
 
human said:
Why would a billionaire who works tons of hours have to be prepared?
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You might be surprised. The truly rich or privileged can be incredibly down to earth, especially if they come from old money. There have been well documented cases in the UK of tourists visiting historic houses and talking with the "gardener", only to discover later that they'd been talking with the earl.

Many years ago my partner and I took his great aunts to visit Somerleyton Hall in Suffolk, where Lady Somerleyton regularly worked in the gift shop. The great aunts were thrilled to discover afterwards who they'd been speaking to.
 
MelmothTheLost said:
You might be surprised. The truly rich or privileged can be incredibly down to earth, especially if they come from old money. There have been well documented cases in the UK of tourists visiting historic houses and talking with the "gardener", only to discover later that they'd been talking with the earl.

Many years ago my partner and I took his great aunts to visit Somerleyton Hall in Suffolk, where Lady Somerleyton regularly worked in the gift shop. The great aunts were thrilled to discover afterwards who they'd been speaking to.
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Very true. I know a debutante who wore her debutante dress as her wedding dress to save money despite her family having more than sufficient funds for a brand new, high end dress.

The man who owned and had inherited the largest, most well-know mountain in our area(worth hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions) drove a beat up 20yo vehicle and helped with many, if not most, of the projects completed on the mountain during his lifetime despite being one of the wealthiest people in this region of the state.

I know I read that Barry used to drive an older vehicle as well.


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Satchie said:
There are other possibilities that would include a criminal element but not be homicide, including bad recreational drugs, or a murder-suicide.
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My first opinion was a murder suicide. But with the news on how the bodies were found I am now going with a suicide pact. It would be extremely difficult to stage a suicide that involves a double hanging.
 
Satchie said:
BTW, you don't have to use rope: belt, tie, scarf, extension cord...
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Extension cord from the garage. Six car underground parking garage, probably on the same level as the indoor pool.

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This is a strange one. I first thought double suicide, but then that quickly changed to murder/suicide and I'm still thinking that with them having homicide detectives takeover. No scenarios seem completely convincing though.

Feel so bad for their children.
 
Early local news reports said the police were considering the deaths a murder-suicide, which friends said amounted to character assassination.

“There is absolutely zero debate in my mind, this was a double homicide,” said Linda Frum, a senator in the Canadian Parliament and a close, longtime friend of the couple.

She added: “This idea that Barry would ever harm Honey — he adored her. That’s impossible. He was a gentle, good man.”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/...to+news&btnG=&client=safari&channel=iphone_bm

The couple showed all the signs of an expanding, invested life. They were building a new home, helping plan their daughter’s wedding and celebrating the arrival of a third grandchild.
 
The premature announcement of the bizarre murder/suicide theory made me think it’s a red herring. If LE really suspected that crazy scenario, seems like they’d investigate fully before announcing it.

Maybe LE actually has a good idea who the perp is and wants to make him think he got away with it, hoping his complacency will lead to actions that give himself away (blabbing, bragging, spending stolen $ if any etc).

There have been a few recent high profile cases of hidden-card tactics used successfully by LE (McStays, Laura Wallen).
 
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