Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[dyannaON]

As a Canadian in the winter I've never seen anyone with rolled up arms while wearing a coat. Just don't get the importance of saying this. I want more info! Moo


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[daniel22]

"..-what is it about the crime scene that would lead police to believe that it was a murder suicide when it clearly appears to be a double homicide?.."

Because a murder/suicide is more plausible imo. They both died of ligature neck compression, so I'm assuming they died by hanging, not strangled before and then hanged.
Think about how difficult it would be for a number of assailants (there would have to be more then one) to hang both of them until they died.

 

[Jealoushe]

"..-what is it about the crime scene that would lead police to believe that it was a murder suicide when it clearly appears to be a double homicide?.."

Because a murder/suicide is more plausible imo. They both died of ligature neck compression, so I'm assuming they died by hanging, not strangled before and then hanged.
Think about how difficult it would be for a number of assailants (there would have to be more then one) to hang both of them until they died.

Or they strangled them, then hung them to send a message.

 

[j_in_c]

As a Canadian in the winter I've never seen anyone with rolled up arms while wearing a coat. Just don't get the importance of saying this. I want more info! Moo

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I am not sure exactly how to interpret that information either - but if it were a partial hanging and you wanted to bind your arms, I think you could put a jacket on backwards and then "flip" it over your head such that your arms were in the sleeves and if the jacket portion is lower, your arms are more restricted. But I don't know for sure exactly what the article was trying to describe. If it was indeed a suicide, it is horrible that no note was left for the family to allow some measure of peace.

 

[andreww]

Hmm. Who held a grudge against these people? The cousin(s).

These 2 were murdered.

I think it is terrible to suggest that this man was greedy or not a nice person because he was a self-made billionaire and didn't like benefit galas. He worked hard his whole life and parlayed a small company into a multi-billion dollar one by selling and re-inventing the business. The cousins got their inheritances, they were employed by him and he bought them houses, etc., but they weren't entitled to a share in his company under any scenario.

They were greedy. They wanted something that didn't belong to them and that they didn't work for.

Don't always believe what you read in the papers. I see a similar situation here as to what happened to Tim Horton's wife and children when he died. A trusted friend stepped in and gave them advice to unload the company to him at a severely undervalued price. Several years later he unloads the company and makes a killing.

As I understand it, Sherman was supposed to give the cousins jobs and shares in the company, but he sold it, using the proceeds to start a new company. So the cousins never got the jobs or shares. Not a great way to treat family. Then there is the story that Sherman sued every contractor that built his house, calling the new home a disaster. Didn't see that mentioned when he was trying to unload it for almost 7 Mil. Another story about a reporter showing up at the home for a scheduled interview with Honey. Escorted in by the maid, Barry turns his head from his paper and says "Who are you?". She answers, he goes back to reading his paper, not another word. Numerous acquaintances have said he wasn't very sociable. Those are the reasons I say he wasn't a very nice guy, not just because he didn't like benefits.

 

[Tillicum]

As a Canadian in the winter I've never seen anyone with rolled up arms while wearing a coat. Just don't get the importance of saying this. I want more info! Moo


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I'll try to explain what I imagine they mean. Imagine wearing a jacket, zipped or snapped part way to the neck. Now imagine taking hold of the collar, hood or shoulders and pulling it back and downward. Now roll it down more and it slides/rolls down the arms. Rolling down from the shoulders, not rolling up from the wrists.

 

[andreww]

Or they strangled them, then hung them to send a message.

Send a message to who? <modsnip> I don't see any message here. I assume that phone records are going to fill in some blanks. Barry didn't show up for work on Wednesday. If phone records show that he was out and about that day, it will be another piece of the puzzle. People contemplating suicide will often not show up for work, and as Barry was said to work 7 days a week it would be very odd for him not to show up IMO.

 

[liz b.]

The one thing that stands out for me : Honey was killed in another part of the house, brought to the pool room, and her corpse was then arranged, to look as though she had been hanged. This is sociopathic, imo. Why go to such lengths, to "match" both bodies at the pool railing, if the objective was to murder both victims, and then get out of that house ? If this is the scenario, that Honey was moved and posed, this was no ordinary murder. jmo

 

[andreww]

I'll try to explain what I imagine they mean. Imagine wearing a jacket, zipped or snapped part way to the neck. Now imagine taking hold of the collar, hood or shoulders and pulling it back and downward. Now roll it down more and it slides/rolls down the arms. Rolling down from the shoulders, not rolling up from the wrists.

That makes sense, kind of what I was thinking.

 

[matou]

I'll try to explain what I imagine they mean. Imagine wearing a jacket, zipped or snapped part way to the neck. Now imagine taking hold of the collar, hood or shoulders and pulling it back and downward. Now roll it down more and it slides/rolls down the arms. Rolling down from the shoulders, not rolling up from the wrists.

Yes. My kid takes her coat off by pulling it and the sleeves turn inside out. If I grabbed her coat from the back and tried pulling it off from behind, the coat would do this around her arms.

 

[Tillicum]

That makes sense, kind of what I was thinking.

I'll never forget when one of my kids was 5 and the zipper on his coat was faulty. It zipped up fine but always got stuck 3/4 of the way down when unzipping it. He was very independent and didn't want any help getting out of that coat. He would stubbornly give in when his arms were locked up in the rolled down sleeves

 

[Angleterre]

Would it be possible to hang yourself from that railing while sitting?

Absolutely
You just lean forward against the ligature around your neck
As a Detective, my first ever death I went to was a suicide by hanging- 88 year old man tied his necktie around the bannister of the stairs and sat forward against it thus ‘hanging himself ‘ ...


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[Grey-St]

Send a message to who? <modsnip> I don't see any message here. I assume that phone records are going to fill in some blanks. Barry didn't show up for work on Wednesday. If phone records show that he was out and about that day, it will be another piece of the puzzle. People contemplating suicide will often not show up for work, and as Barry was said to work 7 days a week it would be very odd for him not to show up IMO.

Barry didn't show up for work Thursday. Likely because he was dead. They were found Friday.

 

[1&2&3]

I'm with many of you - I don't get the picture of the jacket rolled on the arms. To me, this says a person use to killing would use this method, not just a regular citizen.

LE thought Honey was killed some place other than where she was found. If so, it would very difficult for one person to drag her to the pool area then get her positioned in the visual we have been given. IMO.

Did they bring in dogs to try to locate where a deceased Honey may have been?

 

[matou]

The two being beside each other in death may be BM's way of exiting the world. To have her beside him while he did killed himself. It shows his need to be with her as "till death do us part." Not condoning but this makes sense to me. I also don't feel Honey was a willing participant in this at all.

 

[BUF]

Joe Warmington (Toronto Sun) on Bill Kelly Show...

https://omny.fm/shows/bill-kelly-show/what-questions-remain-after-the-murder-of-honey-an

He's the one who wrote that article, discussing this

 

[anonypotomous]

I don't know what happened in this case, but lifting isn't necessary for hanging because dropping or dangling isn't necessary for death. Partial hangings, where the person is in contact with the ground or some other surface, only require that the head be lower than what is securing the far end of the ligature, and that there's compression. If the person leans or falls toward the device around the neck, loss of consciousness occurs quickly and prevents the person from standing or other wise getting free, and hanging death occurs.

Absolutely
You just lean forward against the ligature around your neck
As a Detective, my first ever death I went to was a suicide by hanging- 88 year old man tied his necktie around the bannister of the stairs and sat forward against it thus ‘hanging himself ‘ ...

Exactly what happened to L'Wren Scott:

"...the 6-foot-3-inch former model knelt down and used a scarf to hang herself from an L-shaped doorknob, police sources said. “You lean away from the door applying pressure till you pass out,” one source said, explaining the method. “After that, gravity takes over.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...dead-hanging-apartment-cops-article-1.1724198

 

[Satchie]

I was surprised to read about the very high number of break-ins in the area. This is a very expensive neighbourhood - you'd think that every homeowner would have a state-of-the-art security system. Perhaps we're dealing with unusually sophisticated burglars?

Where did you read about the high number of break-ins in the area?

 

[matou]

I'm looking through the Supreme Court of Canada filings and there is a file for Apotex Inc. vs Her Majesty the Queen. Docket number 37593. File was closed yesterday. Wonder what this is about?

http://www.scc-csc.ca/case-dossier/info/dock-regi-eng.aspx?cas=37593

 

[Elley Mae]

Jackets on pulled down to bend arms behind back, men’s belt around neck tied /looped around railing.

Oh and sitting.

Eta trying to understand how to do that, use a belt and railing to hang self, anybody?