Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[andreww]

<modsnip - rude comment>

Barry had wills, Honey didn't. The key point here is that the family wants to use Barry's will. It leaves everything to them, divided equally. However, If there is evidence to show that Barry died first, Everything would go to Honey, and then it would be up to the courts to decide who gets what and when. This opens the door up to anyone who feels they might have a claim to part of the estate.

Bottom line is that there is obviously information in that document, probably suggesting that Honey died up to six hours before Barry. Information the family doesn't want to make public, yet they need to put in front of the court in order to get the judgement they want in the will situation.

Sometimes I think people are blind. The family and police have continually refused to release even the simplest facts regarding this case. The reason? Likely the facts paint a very clear picture of what happened that night.

 

[andreww]

I think, who dies first HS or BS would leave all her/his assets to the survivor; then when the second parent dies, the assets would be divided to 4 children. KD may have forgotten to mention, if she predeceased him "AND HE DIES AFTERWARDS, THEN" it divided the estimated .... and so on. Sounds bumpy and he didn't like it perhaps.

Exactly.

 

[andreww]

This type of situation is *exactly* why police, politicians, and government employees would *never* agree to cover up a murder/suicide to pretend it was a forever-unsolved/unsolvable double murder, thinking it wouldn't hurt anyone or anything.

Some seem to believe there is no consequence, nobody is hurt, reputations are left intact, there is no murderer on the loose to bring to justice, the rich kids are appeased, the legacy remains, the organizations won't have to wonder if they should give back their donations, no victims.. but in fact, these pesky little details that can creep out of the woodwork, like Wills, and insurance policies, are very specific and with people of this wealth, I'm pretty sure things could tend to get more than a little complicated.

These people who would be complicit in this big coverup conspiracy theory would be exposing themselves and their organizations to unbelievably huge liability in a case such as this where the stakes could be in the hundreds of millions! Not to mention that these TPS, government employees, and paid politicians are risking public monies, as opposed to their own or their own business's private funds. It just would.not.happen. I mean, aside from any discussion about some people in our world still actually having integrity. The liability insurance held by these organizations wouldn't even begin to compensate for the lawsuits that could arise in a case such as this if they agree to just fudge a few of the main facts.

Things are not always simple and black and white like some seem to believe, but can instead be massively intertwined, and it absolutely *does* matter who killed who, who committed suicide, who went first, what was the cause and method, and every other detail. We have no idea how these legal documents may have been written .. whether they might give something to one party if this, or deny giving something to another party if that, et cetera. The possibilities as to how many things could potentially be skewed and affected are endless.

As much as it may seem to some that this case is flavor JonBenet, the differences are huge.

<modsnip - personalized>This situation would exist whether there was a coverup or not. Absolutely no difference. This is dependant on a simple question, who died first? Not sure why that info needs to be withheld from the public... well actually I do .

 

[JDG]

IF the 30 day survivorship rule is not in the wills/does not apply, the courts usually determine that the older spouse died first. That would leave Honeys' wishes on the table, not Barrys'.

Given the amount of decomposition etc, it may not be a coverup at all, simply that there is not a way to determine who died first.

Yes, we know that Honey left Apotex first but that doesn't necessarily mean she died first. She could have gone to the mall, to visit her sister or one of many other things before returning home.

 

[andreww]

IF the 30 day survivorship rule is not in the wills/does not apply, the courts usually determine that the older spouse died first. That would leave Honeys' wishes on the table, not Barrys'.

Given the amount of decomposition etc, it may not be a coverup at all, simply that there is not a way to determine who died first.

Yes, we know that Honey left Apotex first but that doesn't necessarily mean she died first. She could have gone to the mall, to visit her sister or one of many other things before returning home.

Well what other evidence from the police investigation could possibly be in the sealed document then?

 

[JDG]

Where is Honey Sherman’s will? | The Star

At the cemetery where their parents are buried, the Sherman children recently unveiled a grave marker that reflects the uncertainty of the ongoing investigation — rather than a specific date, it simply notes their deaths as having occurred in “December 2017.”

Perhaps they've done this simply because there is NO definite date to be had.
Your underlined phrase is conjecture only, placed there to help sell newspapers.

 

[andreww]

Perhaps they've done this simply because there is NO definite date to be had.
Your underlined phrase is conjecture only, placed there to help sell newspapers.

Not conjecture. Police have said they either died late on the 13th or on the 14th. Why would the family put an actual date on there if it is not certain?

 

[deugirtni]

<modsnip - personalized> This situation would exist whether there was a coverup or not. Absolutely no difference. This is dependant on a simple question, who died first? Not sure why that info needs to be withheld from the public... well actually I do .

Which situation? The one where, according to you, the kids once again aren't getting their exact way and so they're bribing everyone to orchestrate things so they get what they want?

Doesn't this seem to be a non-issue since it seems no matter how you look at it, the estate will have to be determined by the courts, if H has no Will?

• If B killed H, then B doesn't get to be a beneficiary of H's Will, and if H has no will... it would be determined by the courts?
  
• If H killed B, then H doesn't get to be a beneficiary of B's Will, but yet he left everything to H, and so .. it would be determined by the courts?
  
• If double murder, they need to know timing; if B went first and left everything to H, but then H doesn't have a Will, then... it gets determined by the courts?
  
• If double murder, and H went first and she has no Will, then it gets determined by the courts?

And any person(s) claiming to be a beneficiary of H's Will would have to prove it, would they not? And good luck to them on that without H's Will.

It is preposterous to think that H wouldn't have had a Will. She was 70 years old, had already had a bout with throat cancer in addition to numerous other ailments, and she was one half of one of Canada's wealthiest couples. That makes sense.

What am I missing? It's early and I was up late.

 

[andreww]

It is preposterous to think that H wouldn't have had a Will. She was 70 years old, had already had a bout with throat cancer in addition to numerous other ailments, and she was one half of one of Canada's wealthiest couples. That makes sense.

People don't hide their wills. If they haven't come up with one by now, its safe to assume that she never had one.

I don't have one either. Yes, stupid, but some people just put off facing their mortality.

 

[deugirtni]

People don't hide their wills. If they haven't come up with one by now, its safe to assume that she never had one.

I don't have one either. Yes, stupid, but some people just put off facing their mortality.

Sure, understandable, however you and I are not one of Canada's wealthiest couples and this case certainly isn't about what we might do in our little worlds. Barry was super intelligent, and seemingly extremely law savvy being one of Canada's biggest litigants. He had lawyers and accountants at his fingertips and could pay for the very best advice and service. Honey was sickly and 70 years old. There was a Will. That's probably why they were looking for it. The kids would have known of its existence, I'm sure.

"there was a vigorous search for an important document — Honey Sherman’s will.

No one reported being given it for safekeeping, and when police returned access to the family home where the billionaire couple was murdered, no last will and testament of hers was discovered."
....
"(In an email interview this week, Youdan said he was referring in court only “to the facts as known in the public sphere.” He said he was not revealing details about the order of death, the status of wills, or whether or not an individual had a will. He did not elaborate.)"

Is it possible Honey's Will has become part of police evidence and they're not disclosing it to even the family, nor handing it over, for reasons pertaining to the Will potentially pointing to a motive?

Or could it just simply be that the family and their counsel and the police do indeed have the Will in their possession, however they do not want their personal financial details and that of their offspring and whomever else they wished to name as beneficiaries plastered all over mainstream media around the world, and so they're being tightlipped, since it has no bearing on the case itself? How many wealthy deceased people have their Wills picked apart in MSM, even if they might be considered 'public'?

Edited to add: and the police

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Not conjecture. Police have said they either died late on the 13th or on the 14th. Why would the family put an actual date on there if it is not certain?

The tombstone will not be big enough to perpetuate that the police, despite advanced forensic possibilities, were unable to determine the time of death.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

IF the 30 day survivorship rule is not in the wills/does not apply, the courts usually determine that the older spouse died first. That would leave Honeys' wishes on the table, not Barrys'.

Given the amount of decomposition etc, it may not be a coverup at all, simply that there is not a way to determine who died first.

Yes, we know that Honey left Apotex first but that doesn't necessarily mean she died first. She could have gone to the mall, to visit her sister or one of many other things before returning home.

Rbbm
‘Older spouse’?

 

[nuff]

Information the family doesn't want to make public, yet they need to put in front of the court in order to get the judgement they want in the will situation.

Sometimes I think people are blind. The family and police have continually refused to release even the simplest facts regarding this case. The reason? Likely the facts paint a very clear picture of what happened that night.

I'm no expert on WS rules, but it seems to me these statements are nothing more than random accusations of the victims' family, which I thought was unacceptable.

 

[MistyWaters]

Well I suppose anything to keep the Sherman homicides in the headlines is always a worthwhile endeavour but this article contains a huge amount of speculation and conjecture regarding Honey’s Will considering the Sherman estate file has already been sealed for several months. The hearing Donovan refers to was held last August.

In the same story, his sole source avoids confirmation of anything so what do we really know?
“....(In an email interview this week, Youdan said he was referring in court only “to the facts as known in the public sphere.” He said he was not revealing details about the order of death, the status of wills, or whether or not an individual had a will. He did not elaborate.)...”
Where is Honey Sherman’s will? | The Star

Toronto Star Newspapers Ltd. v. Sherman Estate, 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)
CanLII - 2018 ONSC 4706 (CanLII)

 

[dotr]

Judge seals estate files of murder victims Barry and Honey Sherman to protect heirs
'The risk of harm is foreseeable and the foreseeable harm is grave,' said Ontario Superior Court Judge Sean Dunphy in a highly unusual sealing order"
"The estate files dealing with the distribution of assets after death, one for Barry Sherman, listed under his formal name, Bernard, and one for his wife Honey Sherman, showing she is also known as Anna Debora, are filed in Ontario court but access to the contents are blocked from public view.

The files were created in June after lawyers representing the trustees of the estate sought an oral hearing before a judge rather than simply filing material over the counter at a courthouse, as is usually the case."

“It is necessary to maintain the requested materials as confidential in order to prevent a serious risk to an important interest, namely the personal safety, security and well-being of the estate trustees and the beneficiaries,” lawyers argued on behalf of the Sherman estate."

 

[Lexiintoronto]

HS’s will would have had a witness signature. Signed by someone not named in the will. The copy of the will, as was already suggested here, would also be held in her lawyer’s office.

Maybe the witness and the lawyer will step forward after this Star article?

 

[JDG]

Rbbm
‘Older spouse’?

Yes, where both have died seemingly at the same time, the older spouse is considered to have died first. I replaced 'elder' with 'older' i.e. BS as opposed to HS

 

[deugirtni]

HS’s will would have had a witness signature. Signed by someone not named in the will. The copy of the will, as was already suggested here, would also be held in her lawyer’s office.

Maybe the witness and the lawyer will step forward after this Star article?

They probably already did, months ago, .. it isn't said (or even known by Donovan or the public) whether this Will is still missing. Probably not, or to me, that would indicate large issues. Maybe Donovan gave it x amount of time to get access to what he was seeking, and when that didn't happen, he wanted it to be known about the suppression. Or he wanted to do a little filler around the date of their deaths, .. which he'll do a big piece in Saturday's issue for the one year anniversary of the day they were discovered. He hasn't commented yet on the promotions of TPS's finest, nor any new developments in this investigation for awhile now.

 

[JDG]

Well what other evidence from the police investigation could possibly be in the sealed document then?

Oh, just the evidence and all other information that has been gathered for the prosecution. That's all.

 

[JDG]

May I say that Donovan has a big stick and likes to stir things up to sell papers.
He is the same fellow who asked women to call in for that 'very famous' trial a year or so back. Misrepresenting/muddying the waters can sell a LOT of papers, esp. on the anniversary of a dreadful crime. IMO

This is not O/T, it shows that the authors previous behaviour can/does show his current behaviour. IMO

Its what Donovan does. IMO