Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[MistyWaters]

I'm saying that this case was, for all intense purposes, solved on day one. Price was speaking honestly, the only time anybody did, about what the crime scene told him. The family spoke up and Gomes and Price were told how this case was going to play out.

As a VI I suppose KW might “say” this but Andreww, with all due respect, what’s your point in you “saying” to those of us reading here?

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry, just a typo on my part, I meant murder/suicide.

As far as what was found and is amongst the "six weeks of evidence", we have absolutely nothing. Gomes and Price know exactly what happened and have intentionally buried this case and misled the public. <modsnip - fact without link>

Yes, *we* have absolutely nothing (other than knowing their wrists had each been bound, which indicates someone tied up B's hands too; and that H was hung after bleeding a pool of blood onto the floor, just under the spot where she'd be hung), but the police do. And yes, they may know exactly what happened and hopefully also who did it, and hopefully they have a suspect in sight that they are investigating. I think it is not buried at all. And they told the public their initial thoughts so they didn't have mayhem on their hands with scared-to-death neighbours. I don't believe they actually believed that M/S scenario much past the first day or so, even though they didn't announce it for 6 weeks. But we're all just opinions here, right? - not actually facts we can take to the bank by any means, unless one might have been there.

 

[dotr]

I'm saying that this case was, for all intense purposes, solved on day one. Price was speaking honestly, the only time anybody did, about what the crime scene told him. The family spoke up and Gomes and Price were told how this case was going to play out.

Curious to know since it is a question you previously asked, but in reverse- If you believed this to be a double murder, hypothetically, how do you think the murders went down and what was the motive?

 

[andreww]

Andreww, isn't it more an opinion at this point?
We do not know, have not been told. that the case will be a cold case.

AFAIK, TPS are still working on the case and there is a reward for information.

We do not know what the police do/do not have. We can only surmise, no?

TPS is never going to tell us what they do or don't have, however, given this is such a high profile case, you would expect more than one press conference in the past twelve months. Police have been overly silent on this one and Gomes in particular was almost robotic in her answering of questions. I highly doubt that either of them are even involved with the case at this point.

 

[andreww]

Yes, *we* have absolutely nothing (other than knowing their wrists had each been bound, which indicates someone tied up B's hands too; and that H was hung after bleeding a pool of blood onto the floor, just under the spot where she'd be hung), but the police do. And yes, they may know exactly what happened and hopefully also who did it, and hopefully they have a suspect in sight that they are investigating. I think it is not buried at all. And they told the public their initial thoughts so they didn't have mayhem on their hands with scared-to-death neighbours. I don't believe they actually believed that M/S scenario much past the first day or so, even though they didn't announce it for 6 weeks. But we're all just opinions here, right? - not actually facts we can take to the bank by any means, unless one might have been there.

Do we even know that? Remember that that information came from the people hired to discredit LE's Murder Suicide theory. The only thing the police have ever said was what Price said on that first day, and it seemed to me that what he saw was telling him a pretty clear story, that Barry had killed Honey and then himself.

 

[andreww]

Curious to know since it is a question you previously asked, but in reverse- If you believed this to be a double murder, hypothetically, how do you think the murders went down and what was the motive?

I have thought about that question and quite frankly, I feel that the entire scene is just too nonsensical to be a double murder. I hate to keep referencing the Jon Benet Ramsey case, but this is similar in the fact that envisioning anybody but a family member doing all those things just did not make any sense.

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry, just a typo on my part, I meant murder/suicide.

As far as what was found and is amongst the "six weeks of evidence", we have absolutely nothing. Gomes and Price know exactly what happened and have intentionally buried this case and misled the public. <modsnip - fact not linked>

Earlier (like last evening, IIRC) you were asking for proof that Price said this.. now you are saying he's the only one who told the truth. <modsnip - rude> Hard to keep up!

@andreww In response to your post here:
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9
"Again, you say police were "mouthing off theories to the media" but you don't show any examples of the media reporting anything that suggested suicide [now changed to murder/suicide, it was a typo]. How can LE seek a suspect if they don't have one?"

 

[deugirtni]

Do we even know that? Remember that that information came from the people hired to discredit LE's Murder Suicide theory. The only thing the police have ever said was what Price said on that first day, and it seemed to me that what he saw was telling him a pretty clear story, that Barry had killed Honey and then himself.

Yes we know that, because the official pathologist on this case, who did the original autopsies, removed the wrist skin/proof, to preserve it. I don't believe he did that for nothing. I think the PIs aren't lying, they have reputations and businesses at stake. And they weren't hired to discredit, they were hired to seek the truth and ensure TPS knew someone was watching, and they needed to do this correctly. Given the same circumstances, I certainly would have done the same thing.

 

[JDG]

TPS is never going to tell us what they do or don't have, however, given this is such a high profile case, you would expect more than one press conference in the past twelve months. Police have been overly silent on this one and Gomes in particular was almost robotic in her answering of questions. I highly doubt that either of them are even involved with the case at this point.

Must admit, I did not think she was very 'professional and experienced' but just put it down to 'inexperienced' at handling the media.

It wasn't unprofessional just not done well. I thought she had little media experience or something. Also, had never heard of her before.

Has anyone else ever heard of Gomes?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I have thought about that question and quite frankly, I feel that the entire scene is just too nonsensical to be a double murder. I hate to keep referencing the Jon Benet Ramsey case, but this is similar in the fact that envisioning anybody but a family member doing all those things just did not make any sense.

I agree with you about the Ramsey case.

What if with the Shermans it is also someone who had regular access to the home, very familiar with their routines? Comfortable enough in the home to spend time to stage the scene.

(Other than BS, please.)

 

[andreww]

I agree with you about the Ramsey case.

What if with the Shermans it is also someone who had regular access to the home, very familiar with their routines? Comfortable enough in the home to spend time to stage the scene.

(Other than BS, please.)

Nobody would do this. KW once said that he fantasized about beheading Barry and kicking his head around the parking lot. Thats how people kill other people, quick and with an element of surprise, then they get out of sight. Nobody hangs around a murder scene for hours on end, and nobody then stages the murder to look like a different type of murder. I'm not being stubborn here, its just that I have not heard or even imagined any other scenario that even begins to make sense.

Barry had a lot of enemies, that's true. But you have to ask yourself some key questions. How would Barry's death be an advantage to any of his enemies? Would any of his enemies have any reason to kill Honey? Why not just shoot them? Too many things don't add up for it to be a double murder.

 

[andreww]

Earlier (like last evening, IIRC) you were asking for proof that Price said this.. now you are saying he's the only one who told the truth. <modsnip - rude> Hard to keep up!

@andreww In response to your post here:
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9
"Again, you say police were "mouthing off theories to the media" but you don't show any examples of the media reporting anything that suggested suicide [now changed to murder/suicide, it was a typo]. How can LE seek a suspect if they don't have one?"

What I was saying that I never saw a headline in the Sun or Star calling this a murder suicide. I will admit that in the early days of this case I didn't really pay much attention, so I might have missed it. As I recall the press only reported exactly what Price said, not going the extra step and deeming it a murder suicide. Correct me if I am wrong?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

What I was saying that I never saw a headline in the Sun or Star calling this a murder suicide. I will admit that in the early days of this case I didn't really pay much attention, so I might have missed it. As I recall the press only reported exactly what Price said, not going the extra step and deeming it a murder suicide. Correct me if I am wrong?

The Sun and Globe & Mail did within days of them being found. (I think most MSM were reporting it as a m/s based on sources.)

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

 

[MistyWaters]

Must admit, I did not think she was very 'professional and experienced' but just put it down to 'inexperienced' at handling the media.

It wasn't unprofessional just not done well. I thought she had little media experience or something. Also, had never heard of her before.

Has anyone else ever heard of Gomes?

Not me. But she’s a Detective, not a professional spokesperson. She was clearly referring to a prepared and scripted statement the entire time she stood at the podium but imo that’s to be expected.

I may be in the minority but I think it’s a good thing for police departments to publicly involve Detectives in press conferences rather than a polished and trained smooth talking head of their public relations department who has no inside involvement in the case whatsoever.

 

[MistyWaters]

What I was saying that I never saw a headline in the Sun or Star calling this a murder suicide. I will admit that in the early days of this case I didn't really pay much attention, so I might have missed it. As I recall the press only reported exactly what Price said, not going the extra step and deeming it a murder suicide. Correct me if I am wrong?

Definitely it was there. If you look back at early news reports, almost all of them were edited a few days later. IIRC several referred to one particular media as the source, however it’s also edited any reference to those reports. It began with “investigated as a possible murder/murder suicide” and as it was repeated from one news stream to the next, the word “possible” soon began to disappear.

Editing online news reports is a standard means of deletion of incorrect reporting. Years ago the media was required to print retractions, in the old days of newspapers. However some of the print may exist if you were interested in searching paper archives.

 

[MistyWaters]

JMO but who and how this information was fed into the media on Day One must be involved in this homicide investigation. Was it by someone reporters knew first hand, second hand (LE says) or by an anonymous cellphone or email tip? Because a description of how the bodies were found was far more information than has ever been attributed to any named police officer.

Who else would possibly benefit by misinformation being published if not the killer/s? At most the m/s stories might’ve been an attempt to discourage potential witnesses from contacting LE. However the family’s media statement countered that.

“The Toronto Sun and The Globe and Mail both reported that the deaths of the couple - who counted among Canada's richest people and were known as charity fundraisers - were being probed as a possible murder-suicide.

The Globe and Mail cited a police source as saying the Shermans' bodies were found hanging from a railing around a basement pool, the theory being that the 75-year-old chairman of the board of Apotex killed his wife Honey - five years his junior - hung her body and then hanged himself by the pool's edge.....”
Family of Canadian billionaire Barry Sherman doubts murder-suicide claim, calls for thorough probe

 

[andreww]

JMO but who and how this information was fed into the media on Day One must be involved in this homicide investigation. Was it by someone reporters knew first hand, second hand (LE says) or by an anonymous cellphone or email tip? Because a description of how the bodies were found was far more information than has ever been attributed to any named police officer.

Who else would possibly benefit by misinformation being published if not the killer/s? At most the m/s stories might’ve been an attempt to discourage potential witnesses from contacting LE. However the family’s media statement countered that.

“The Toronto Sun and The Globe and Mail both reported that the deaths of the couple - who counted among Canada's richest people and were known as charity fundraisers - were being probed as a possible murder-suicide.

The Globe and Mail cited a police source as saying the Shermans' bodies were found hanging from a railing around a basement pool, the theory being that the 75-year-old chairman of the board of Apotex killed his wife Honey - five years his junior - hung her body and then hanged himself by the pool's edge.....”
Family of Canadian billionaire Barry Sherman doubts murder-suicide claim, calls for thorough probe

I think reporters and police officers are often a lot closer than you think. They have a working relationship. So long as anonymity is maintained and that the "off the record" boundary isn't crossed, it'll alway be that way. Remember, the press can be a valuable tool to LE in some instances, so there has to be a working relationship.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think reporters and police officers are often a lot closer than you think. They have a working relationship. So long as anonymity is maintained and that the "off the record" boundary isn't crossed, it'll alway be that way. Remember, the press can be a valuable tool to LE in some instances, so there has to be a working relationship.

According to wiki, do you know TPS has over 7000 police officers (all who are required to sign confidentiality agreements)? How many of those 7,000+ who might be “close” to a reporter, who just happen to also be directly assigned to any specific case and have factual knowledge about it? The odds are almost astronomical! It’s not as if it’s a small town police force where officers gather together at a coffee shop all at once. If Canadian media have a complaint, it’s the opposite, their opportunities for police leaks are very limited. You should notice that just by reading our Canadian news.

Sure, the press can be a valuable tool in some instances but that type of collaboration originates far higher than a police officer and reporter working the beat.

Unless we hear WHO was the police source, I remain very curious about that person’s motives. It does not necessarily prove who committed the homicides but it would certainly be compelling evidence if LE have other reasons to suspect that person’s involvement especially if impersonation of an officer was involved. Even though the media is granted privilege, that can be overruled by a Judge approving a subpoena for the source to be released.

 

[casesensitive]

Today's article by Toronto Sun's Joe Warmington. Lead investigator S. Gomes, and B. Price are on the promotion list and could be transferring out. (The OPP do this with staff regularly.)

"But all of the main police officers involved in this case (Sherman) from the beginning are, or soon to be, operating under higher ranks and new jobs."

"There is no question they are all good police officers. But sometimes, fresh eyes are a good thing. It’s also a positive Idsinga is now officially heading up Homicide. "

Even KW weighed in on the news saying “it doesn’t make sense” and that “I could understand Gomes and Price being promoted if they had solved the Sherman case.”

WARMINGTON: Cops in Sherman case get promoted, but will it stall the file now?

 

[human]

Today's article by Toronto Sun's Joe Warmington. Lead investigator S. Gomes, and B. Price are on the promotion list and could be transferring out. (The OPP do this with staff regularly.)

"But all of the main police officers involved in this case (Sherman) from the beginning are, or soon to be, operating under higher ranks and new jobs."

"There is no question they are all good police officers. But sometimes, fresh eyes are a good thing. It’s also a positive Idsinga is now officially heading up Homicide. "

Even KW weighed in on the news saying “it doesn’t make sense” and that “I could understand Gomes and Price being promoted if they had solved the Sherman case.”

WARMINGTON: Cops in Sherman case get promoted, but will it stall the file now?

Usually the media asks a lot of questions but only prints a bit of it. I wonder if Kerry had more to say