Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[MistyWaters]

I wonder if the one person pushing the one gurney had taken off his booties just prior to exiting the house?
I think that more than errors, these things are evidence of tunnel vision, where they seemed to only be considering M/S and discounting anything related to other possibilities, for reasons we don't yet know. But why? Virtually everyone when they heard about this and the visuals presented, was thinking assassination, so why would LE have been stuck on M/S? There has to be a huge reason for that... so then we get back to wondering if there may have been a suicide note, or a 911 call, or a video recorded 'confession', or .... ?????? TPS just *can't* be as incompetent as they seem, just can't be possible.. I mean there seem to be SO many things in this case that make TPS *look* bad, but they aren't in a position to answer to these things, nor to defend themselves yet. If we ever get to hear the details of why, hopefully we will find out they had overwhelming reasons for believing M/S.

If we wanted to, I suppose we could criticize the investigation for being haphazard because neither of the funeral directors were seen exiting the home wearing a full Tyvek suit!

 

[rickcross]

Well, why does one funeral director leave the house with protective shoe coverings, and the other that leaves at the same time doesn’t? They both loaded the same 2 bodies onto gurneys, in the same part of the house, at the same time. You wear them because they are required, or else they aren’t required- which is it?
LE didn’t check the apotex video for weeks, and actually thereby inadvertently risked having the only usable copy erased. How could they know the murderers weren’t on tape following Barry or honey as they drove away from apotex?
C’mon misty, you surely don’t believe that these and other actions by LE aren’t errors? If not, why not just let everyone from apotex and the press waltz into areas of the house that have been “cleared”?

It is possible that one of the funeral directors took his booties off before he left the house. Those things look stupid and I wouldn't want my photo in the paper wearing them either.

As for your other point about the video, I agree. My question is whether they didn't look for video simply because they were certain it was a murder/suicide, so why waste resources?

I would tear down the house. Who wants to look at the place where the parents died so horribly. They do not need the money.

The lifelong business partner was really old. Time to move on

You can make excuses for anything. But to demolish such a home and its contents is just a plain waste. As for the business partner, they way they did it lacked class. Have the man step down and give him praise for his lifetime contribution, don't escort him out of the office and send out a news release that he'd been canned.

 

[rickcross]

I wonder if the one person pushing the one gurney had taken off his booties just prior to exiting the house?
I think that more than errors, these things are evidence of tunnel vision, where they seemed to only be considering M/S and discounting anything related to other possibilities, for reasons we don't yet know. But why? Virtually everyone when they heard about this and the visuals presented, was thinking assassination, so why would LE have been stuck on M/S? There has to be a huge reason for that... so then we get back to wondering if there may have been a suicide note, or a 911 call, or a video recorded 'confession', or .... ?????? TPS just *can't* be as incompetent as they seem, just can't be possible.. I mean there seem to be SO many things in this case that make TPS *look* bad, but they aren't in a position to answer to these things, nor to defend themselves yet. If we ever get to hear the details of why, hopefully we will find out they had overwhelming reasons for believing M/S.

you bring up some very good points. Like you I believe they must have had some good reason for believing this was M/S for such a long period of time. I'm wondering if they just caved to public, media, and family pressure to take the case in a different direction.

 

[rickcross]

Exactly, they set out to steal the truck. Then they decided to commit murder. My point is that the Sherman case could be exactly the same.

Not so sure about that. Millard spent a significant amount of money on that incinerator, about the same as the value of the truck. I honestly believe that the objective of that crime was to kill someone, the truck was just gravy.

 

[MistyWaters]

you bring up some very good points. Like you I believe they must have had some good reason for believing this was M/S for such a long period of time. I'm wondering if they just caved to public, media, and family pressure to take the case in a different direction.

If so, what a total waste of money! People living in Toronto ought to be outraged if the largest homicide investigation in terms of resources in the history of TPS is unsupported by the Office of the Chief Coroner of Ontario. This ought to be a story Donovan wants to tell, doesn’t everybody just love scandal!

Seriously, if you believe ANY Canadian police force is free to decide which deaths are homicides and which are file closed murder/suicides might I ask what country you live in where that’s how it is? Because that’s not how it is here. A homicide investigation officially proceeds following the Coroner officially determining a homicide occurred.

****

Ontario Ministry of the Solicitor General
Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General
Common questions about death investigations
Frequently asked questions
What are coroners?
Coroners are medical doctors with specialized death investigation training, who have been appointed to investigate sudden deaths as mandated by the Coroners Act.

What are pathologists and forensic pathologists?
Pathologists are medical doctors who are experts in disease and injury. Forensic pathologists have further training and are experts in disease and injury that result in sudden death. Pathologists and forensic pathologists are the medical doctors who perform autopsies, when required. Forensic pathologists may also be appointed as coroners to investigate cases of suspicious death.

What is a death investigation?
A death investigation is a process whereby a coroner or forensic pathologist seeks to understand how and why a person died. A coroner or forensic pathologist must answer five questions when investigating a death:

• Who (identity of the deceased)
• When (date of death)
• Where (location of death)
• How (medical cause of death)
• By what means (natural causes, accident, homicide, suicide or undetermined)

Information may be obtained from several sources including, but not limited to family, co-workers, neighbours, doctors, hospital records, police and other emergency service workers. Contact with family is vital as they often have important information that can aid the investigation.

 

[MistyWaters]

Anyone interesting in lodging a complaint because they believe the Sherman death investigation has proceeded without proper adherence to the Coroner’s Act may do so.

Complaints
The Death Investigation Oversight Council (DIOC) administers a public complaints process through its Complaints Committee, which reviews complaints regarding death investigations, specifically, complaints against a coroner or a forensic pathologist working in the Province of Ontario. Families may use the DIOC complaint form to submit their complaint to the DIOC Secretariat.

Complaints

 

[MistyWaters]

The Board must’ve “caved in” too if they hadn’t noticed the Police Chief has authorized the largest homicide investigation in the history of TPS for homicides the Ontario Coroners Office isn’t certain even occurred.

There can be no “caving in” unless it’s being alleged a conspiracy of great magnitude between various unrelated parties has occurred. (which is against TOS). My point is TPS isn’t the powerful be-all and end-all entity involved in death investigations. While LE is the public interface, their authority involving death investigations is not totally autonomous, even if it appears to the general public it might be so.

*****

Toronto Police Services Board

Toronto Police Services Board - FAQ

WHAT EXACTLY DOES THE BOARD DO?
The Board has specific legislated responsibilities:

• determines, after consultation with the Chief of Police, objectives and priorities with respect to police services within the municipalities.
• establishes policies for the effective management of the police service.
• recruits and appoints the Chief and Deputy(s) of Police and annually determine their remuneration and working conditions.
• establishes guidelines for the administration of the public complaints system and receive quarterly reports on the subject.
• negotiates collective agreements.
• approves the capital and operating budget.

 

[deugirtni]

The coroner ruled it as undetermined (as per Gomes' press conference statement), so it was up to police to investigate which of the 3 possibilities occurred - SS, MS, or MM (as per Gomes' press conference statement). After 6 weeks, police decided it was a MM investigation (as per Gomes' press conference statement). Up until that point, they say they had been investigating all 3 options equally (as per Gomes' press conference statement).

It *seems* however, that TPS were favoring the MS option, based on many things, such as not examining footage, not interviewing people who were present when the bodies were discovered, not mentioning B's homicide in search warrants, initially telling the press they weren't seeking an outstanding suspect and then updating only to say there was nothing that had changed on that front, and much more.

 

[rickcross]

If so, what a total waste of money! People living in Toronto ought to be outraged if the largest homicide investigation in terms of resources in the history of TPS is unsupported by the Office of the Chief Coroner of Ontario. This ought to be a story Donovan wants to tell, doesn’t everybody just love scandal!

Seriously, if you believe ANY Canadian police force is free to decide which deaths are homicides and which are file closed murder/suicides might I ask what country you live in where that’s how it is? Because that’s not how it is here. A homicide investigation officially proceeds following the Coroner officially determining a homicide occurred.

****

Ontario Ministry of the Solicitor General
Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General
Common questions about death investigations
Frequently asked questions
What are coroners?
Coroners are medical doctors with specialized death investigation training, who have been appointed to investigate sudden deaths as mandated by the Coroners Act.

What are pathologists and forensic pathologists?
Pathologists are medical doctors who are experts in disease and injury. Forensic pathologists have further training and are experts in disease and injury that result in sudden death. Pathologists and forensic pathologists are the medical doctors who perform autopsies, when required. Forensic pathologists may also be appointed as coroners to investigate cases of suspicious death.

What is a death investigation?
A death investigation is a process whereby a coroner or forensic pathologist seeks to understand how and why a person died. A coroner or forensic pathologist must answer five questions when investigating a death:

• Who (identity of the deceased)
• When (date of death)
• Where (location of death)
• How (medical cause of death)
• By what means (natural causes, accident, homicide, suicide or undetermined)

Information may be obtained from several sources including, but not limited to family, co-workers, neighbours, doctors, hospital records, police and other emergency service workers. Contact with family is vital as they often have important information that can aid the investigation.

Misty, just because something is written, doesn't make it so. Every aspect of government policy is written down, similar to what you've posted. However, things like SNC-Lavalin prove that people in power have absolutely no qualms about sidestepping those procedures. It happens on a daily basis. If you believe that the world operates by a book of procedures and that absolutely nobody ever strays from those procedures, I'm happy that you have such confidence in society. You are however being naive.

I am by no means saying that anything nefarious is going on with this case, however there are many aspects of it that have me scratching my head. TPS seems not to have been seriously investigating this case for quite some time, even after Gomes' press conference. I'm still not sure that DNA samples have been taken from everybody that was known to have been in the house. Video surveillance footage wasn't collected immediately. Production orders only issued naming HS. Its been a year and a half and we have had no updates. No pleas to the public for assistance. Something just doesn't seem right. But I guess if they've thrown massive resources at this case and still have absolutely nothing, it's not something that they'd want to share with the public.

 

[ldlager]

But what did the killer(s) steal then (from the Shermans)? Nothing has been said at all about any theft or anything missing. I think we would've heard some little snippets at least, if that were the case.

Fair enough, but actually we have heard very few snippets about anything!!

 

[ldlager]

If we wanted to, I suppose we could criticize the investigation for being haphazard because neither of the funeral directors were seen exiting the home wearing a full Tyvek suit!

It's alot simpler to just criticize LE for letting a member of the public stroll past the officers posted on the street; duck under the yellow crime scene tape; walk up to the side door; enter the house; and do who knows what inside.
There are many other instances of seeming LE screwups and errors as I have mentioned.

 

[deugirtni]

Fair enough, but actually we have heard very few snippets about anything!!

I don't know.. we seem to have heard a bit at least.. trashing 2 nearly-new sub-zero fridges (those things sell for tens of thousands.. like at least $20K each IIRC).. we've heard a gruesome, gory thing about what potentially happened to H, which could explain the 'pool of blood'.. we've heard about the sealed docs and the Star's efforts to get them unsealed, about the lack of follow-up on some things by TPS, things about Jack Kay's departure, offloading of B's office furniture from his office into his home, the visit by the Wadsworth appraisers, a 911 call, a visitor to the home before the bodies had been discovered caught on video.. there are really all kinds of little snippets we've gotten wind of, via MSM, and other, .. I think we would have heard at least a little squeak about a theft.. because that could potentially make this something different, you know?

 

[ldlager]

I don't know.. we seem to have heard a bit at least.. trashing 2 nearly-new sub-zero fridges (those things sell for tens of thousands.. like at least $20K each IIRC).. we've heard a gruesome, gory thing about what potentially happened to H, which could explain the 'pool of blood'.. we've heard about the sealed docs and the Star's efforts to get them unsealed, about the lack of follow-up on some things by TPS, things about Jack Kay's departure, offloading of B's office furniture from his office into his home, the visit by the Wadsworth appraisers, a 911 call, a visitor to the home before the bodies had been discovered caught on video.. there are really all kinds of little snippets we've gotten wind of, via MSM, and other, .. I think we would have heard at least a little squeak about a theft.. because that could potentially make this something different, you know?

Well, in fact we have heard about one thing that is missing and could have been stolen- Honey's will...

 

[MistyWaters]

It's alot simpler to just criticize LE for letting a member of the public stroll past the officers posted on the street; duck under the yellow crime scene tape; walk up to the side door; enter the house; and do who knows what inside.
There are many other instances of seeming LE screwups and errors as I have mentioned.

If you’re aware of screw-ups and you’re an expert on police procedure then you should become a Verified Insider.

You also have the option of reporting the breaches of Professional Standards here:
Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect
“Professional Standards is a portion of Corporate Command. The unit is charged with the responsibility of promoting and supporting professionalism throughout the organization, which includes the practices, conduct, appearance, ethics & integrity of its members to strengthen public confidence, and co-operation within the community.”

 

[MistyWaters]

Misty, just because something is written, doesn't make it so. Every aspect of government policy is written down, similar to what you've posted. However, things like SNC-Lavalin prove that people in power have absolutely no qualms about sidestepping those procedures. It happens on a daily basis. If you believe that the world operates by a book of procedures and that absolutely nobody ever strays from those procedures, I'm happy that you have such confidence in society. You are however being naive.

I am by no means saying that anything nefarious is going on with this case, however there are many aspects of it that have me scratching my head. TPS seems not to have been seriously investigating this case for quite some time, even after Gomes' press conference. I'm still not sure that DNA samples have been taken from everybody that was known to have been in the house. Video surveillance footage wasn't collected immediately. Production orders only issued naming HS. Its been a year and a half and we have had no updates. No pleas to the public for assistance. Something just doesn't seem right. But I guess if they've thrown massive resources at this case and still have absolutely nothing, it's not something that they'd want to share with the public.

If you’re not suggesting something nefarious is going on, then what in your opinion doesn’t just seem right?

And have you ever considered TPS isn’t able to satisfy your expectations because everything you’d like answers for, so does the killer?

 

[MistyWaters]

The coroner ruled it as undetermined (as per Gomes' press conference statement), so it was up to police to investigate which of the 3 possibilities occurred - SS, MS, or MM (as per Gomes' press conference statement). After 6 weeks, police decided it was a MM investigation (as per Gomes' press conference statement). Up until that point, they say they had been investigating all 3 options equally (as per Gomes' press conference statement).

It *seems* however, that TPS were favoring the MS option, based on many things, such as not examining footage, not interviewing people who were present when the bodies were discovered, not mentioning B's homicide in search warrants, initially telling the press they weren't seeking an outstanding suspect and then updating only to say there was nothing that had changed on that front, and much more.

Nowhere during the PC did Nomes say the Coroner ruled the Sherman deaths Undermined. What she said was the manner was undetermined (ie not determined, unknown). That’s the reason the additional investigation was required, to determine one the three presented options. If the Coroner had officially ruled the deaths Undetermined that’s an option in itself when no specific manner - ie homicide, accident, suicide, etc - can be concluded after the investigation is concluded. By the mention of only being given three options, an official ruling of Undermined was not amongst them.

“The cause of death for both of the Shermans was ligature neck compression. The manner was undetermined with the only presented options being double suicide, homicide/suicide and double homicide.......”

Then she continues on, disclosing the partners involved in the investigation.

“Conjecture and speculation have no place. Each of the three manners, the options provided to us, were all equally considered as evidence presented itself. As a unit, with many other areas of expertise within our service we have so far spent many thousands of hours on this investigation. Our partners include the Province’s Coroner’s Forensic Pathology Unit and many areas of discipline within the (Ontario) Centre of Forensic Sciences...”

After listing all the investigative actions that took place she presents her conclusion. It’s a safe assumption the word “we” follows through from the above “investigative unit” she refers to who’s involved in conducting the six week investigation because at no point during this PC did she say TPS was investigating on their own.

“We believe now, through the six weeks of work and review we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide investigation and that both Honey and Barry Sherman were in fact targeted.”

 

[ldlager]

If you’re aware of screw-ups and you’re an expert on police procedure then you should become a Verified Insider.

You also have the option of reporting the breaches of Professional Standards here:
Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect
“Professional Standards is a portion of Corporate Command. The unit is charged with the responsibility of promoting and supporting professionalism throughout the organization, which includes the practices, conduct, appearance, ethics & integrity of its members to strengthen public confidence, and co-operation within the community.”

Right.... report alleged breaches... ok

 

[rickcross]

If you’re not suggesting something nefarious is going on, then what in your opinion doesn’t just seem right?

And have you ever considered TPS isn’t able to satisfy your expectations because everything you’d like answers for, so does the killer?

You are avoiding the meat of the post. I'm sure you are well aware that there have been a number of posters that believe this was murder/suicide and that TPS simply covered it up at the behest of the Sherman family. Your response was to post the official procedures guide. My response to that was that there is plenty of evidence that procedures are often ignored by people in power.

Not saying I believe this is what happened, but I will acknowledge that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it didn't. I would expect that someone as intelligent as yourself would be able to make the same acknowledgement.

 

[MistyWaters]

You are avoiding the meat of the post. I'm sure you are well aware that there have been a number of posters that believe this was murder/suicide and that TPS simply covered it up at the behest of the Sherman family. Your response was to post the official procedures guide. My response to that was that there is plenty of evidence that procedures are often ignored by people in power.

Not saying I believe this is what happened, but I will acknowledge that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it didn't. I would expect that someone as intelligent as yourself would be able to make the same acknowledgement.

The Sherman deaths were officially announced as a targeted double homicide well over a year ago. TPS is reportedly engaged in an active, ongoing investigation however no charges have been laid as yet.

Who gains by unfounded and unproven public allegations involving conspiracy theories to insinuate a double homicide never occurred and the investigation is superficial due to corruption, incompetence, politically influence or financial benefit (pick one)?

Answer - The killer.

I have no intention of jumping on that bandwagon.

What’s it to you?

 

[deugirtni]

Well, in fact we have heard about one thing that is missing and could have been stolen- Honey's will...

Yes, but that doesn't mesh with your 'theft' theory, that meshes more with the targeted-for-their-money theory, with their murders being a necessary part of the plan, else the theft of a will would be meaningless if the writer of the will was still alive to change said will. imo.