Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[deugirtni]

rsb

From what I've seen on TV, guilty people quickly "lawyer up" while being questioned and taped by LE. It prevents LE from further questioning and recording any statements that could incriminate them. We only know that the Sherman kids immediately rejected the murder/suicide theory the day after the murders.

They hired Greenspan's team almost two weeks later. That doesn't sound like anybody lawyered up quickly to me. I am not reading comments on social media so I haven't heard what people have implied about why the family hired outside investigators. I can understand why they did. I'm pretty sure that Greenspan's team is not privy to the TPS investigation, so I don't think they can actually monitor them. jmo

It was almost immediately - pretty much as soon as the family became concerned after hearing the statements made by LE to the media on day#1. The hired forensic pathologist performed the second autopsy before the memorial service took place, and autopsy was viewed by the team of detectives who were already in place.

"The family wanted to know more and with the help of Greenspan, went looking to hire a forensic pathologist to do a second autopsy.

The family hired Dr. David Chiasson, formerly the chief forensic pathologist for Ontario. Chiasson now does pathology work at the Hospital for Sick Children and is an assistant professor at the University of Toronto.

Chiasson conducted a second autopsy days before the Dec. 21 funeral. Present at the autopsy was the team of private detectives, most of them former Toronto homicide investigators, assembled by Greenspan."

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

"At 4:14 p.m. on the Saturday, about the time the autopsies were concluding, the Sherman family released a statement through Apotex taking issue with the news circulating that it was a murder suicide.

"We are shocked and think it's irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends nor their colleagues believe to be true," the family said in the statement.

"We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed."

The family hired top criminal lawyer Brian Greenspan, who in turn assembled a team of former homicide detectives who had retired and become private investigators. Greenspan also hired Dr. David Chiasson, who was the Ontario's chief forensic pathologist from 1994 to 2000 and is now is a senior pathologist at Toronto's Sick Children's Hospital.

The funeral for the Sherman couple was scheduled for Thursday, Dec. 21. Chiasson and others on Greenspan's team had to move fast. They sought and received permission from the coroner's office to conduct private autopsies before the scheduled funeral. It is unusual for a family to conduct their own autopsy, but not unprecedented.

On Wednesday, Dec. 20, Chiasson entered the pathology suite at the modern coroner's office"

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

 

[ldlager]

Nothing new on this thread. Likely an accurate reflection of the lack of progress that LE is making as well.
Incredible bungling and incompetence in the past 2 weeks by TPS regarding missing/escaped persons from CAMH(centre for addiction and mental health) in Toronto. Their incompetence makes me highly sceptical that they will ever solve the Sherman case. Moo

 

[Tripod]

Nothing new on this thread. Likely an accurate reflection of the lack of progress that LE is making as well.
Incredible bungling and incompetence in the past 2 weeks by TPS regarding missing/escaped persons from CAMH(centre for addiction and mental health) in Toronto. Their incompetence makes me highly sceptical that they will ever solve the Sherman case. Moo

I've followed this thread since inception, and have never had much to add to the really excellent, informative posts everyone here has made all along. It's terribly disheartening, to me, that there've been no arrests thus far. I sincerely hope and pray LE does have a good working theory.

 

[WINDSOR]

I've followed this thread since inception, and have never had much to add to the really excellent, informative posts everyone here has made all along. It's terribly disheartening, to me, that there've been no arrests thus far. I sincerely hope and pray LE does have a good working theory.

When it comes to solving crimes, I believe there are two factors outside of law enforcement's control which are major factors in their ability to solve the crime.
1) The forensic evidence left by the criminal(s). Extremely careful and competent criminals rarely leave valuable evidence for LE to track them.

2) Witnesses or persons with knowledge of the criminals.

Many crimes are solved quickly when these factors are in place. We all have heard of cases where the robber accidentally leaves his wallet at the crime scene, or a neighbour writes down a license plate number on a hunch. Or some petty criminal passes on some crucial information.

The fact that these events have not occurred yet, means that the TPS will have to keep investigating.
I do not believe accusing the TPS of incompetence is fair.

 

[Tripod]

When it comes to solving crimes, I believe there are two factors outside of law enforcement's control which are major factors in their ability to solve the crime.
1) The forensic evidence left by the criminal(s). Extremely careful and competent criminals rarely leave valuable evidence for LE to track them.

2) Witnesses or persons with knowledge of the criminals.

Many crimes are solved quickly when these factors are in place. We all have heard of cases where the robber accidentally leaves his wallet at the crime scene, or a neighbour writes down a license plate number on a hunch. Or some petty criminal passes on some crucial information.

The fact that these events have not occurred yet, means that the TPS will have to keep investigating.
I do not believe accusing the TPS of incompetence is fair.

In general, I certainly agree with you. I believe the forensic evidence in this case is obviously lacking. Once in a while, a criminal perp does just get lucky, rather than be a mastermind.
I suppose I still lean towards a hired hit, with the killer/s being fairly experienced. I honestly don't know how common that actually is, but with victims as wealthy as the Shermans, it might be somewhat more likely.

 

[rickcross]

Or maybe Kerry Winter was right? Could LE have made the mistake of mislabeling this as a double murder? Just thinking out loud.

 

[WINDSOR]

Or maybe Kerry Winter was right? Could LE have made the mistake of mislabeling this as a double murder? Just thinking out loud.

A few things we know for sure about the murder/suicide theory.
*The initial M/S theory was based on early speculation at the time of the discovery of the bodies, prior to a thorough investigation.
*No new evidence has been discovered that supports the M/S theory
*The perpetrators of the crime would love the TPS to rule it as a M/S
*If the family was behind the double murder, I do not think they would have worked so hard to debunk the M/S theory.

 

[rickcross]

A few things we know for sure about the murder/suicide theory.
*The initial M/S theory was based on early speculation at the time of the discovery of the bodies, prior to a thorough investigation.
*No new evidence has been discovered that supports the M/S theory
*The perpetrators of the crime would love the TPS to rule it as a M/S
*If the family was behind the double murder, I do not think they would have worked so hard to debunk the M/S theory.

*The initial M/S theory was based on early speculation at the time of the discovery of the bodies, prior to a thorough investigation.

IMO this is a false statement. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the M/S theory was the main theory for quite some time.

*No new evidence has been discovered that supports the M/S theory

Well they were at that scene for a month, not sure what "new evidence" there could be? If it were a spur of the moment thing, there would not be any evidence to find by checking phones, computers, or their backgrounds.

*The perpetrators of the crime would love the TPS to rule it as a M/S

Yes, but what has that got to do with anything?

*If the family was behind the double murder, I do not think they would have worked so hard to debunk the M/S theory.

I don't think the family had anything to do with it. But as long as we are on the subject, it is interesting how at the time of the incident the family was so adamant that this wasn't a M/S. Jonathon spoke at the funeral, praising his father, his business partner, his hero, blah, blah, blah. Then a year and a half later we learn that the same guy tried to take control of Barry's affairs, stating he was no longer competent. So the question becomes; what was Barry's state of mind a the time of the deaths? We certainly are not getting an honest picture from the family IMO.

 

[deugirtni]

... I don't think the family had anything to do with it. But as long as we are on the subject, it is interesting how at the time of the incident the family was so adamant that this wasn't a M/S. Jonathon spoke at the funeral, praising his father, his business partner, his hero, blah, blah, blah. Then a year and a half later we learn that the same guy tried to take control of Barry's affairs, stating he was no longer competent. So the question becomes; what was Barry's state of mind a the time of the deaths? We certainly are not getting an honest picture from the family IMO.

RSBM

If the rich kid with a sense of entitlement tried to sway the family onboard with accusations of their father's 'incompetence', when perhaps they disagreed with how he chose to invest and/or spend his money, I don't think we can view that as not getting an honest picture of Barry's state of mind from family. If a close friend who had no financial dealings with Barry had suggested Barry was 'incompetent', or losing it, then it might carry more weight. Funny how people are when they don't get their way. Sometimes I truly wonder what the real age of adulthood is.

 

[deugirtni]

... *If the family was behind the double murder, I do not think they would have worked so hard to debunk the M/S theory.

RSBM

Unless perhaps their hopeful goal was to make it appear as a double suicide?

 

[rickcross]

RSBM

Unless perhaps their hopeful goal was to make it appear as a double suicide?

I think there is a good argument that the family would not have wanted their parents life to end with such a black mark as murder suicide. Seems they were heavily involved in charitable organizations and taking money from the Shermans would be the equivalent of taking money from a murderer if that were the case. And obviously NOBODY wants to believe their father killed their mother. I'm not saying that is what happened but I see nothing to discount that as a possibility.

 

[rickcross]

*If the family was behind the double murder, I do not think they would have worked so hard to debunk the M/S theory.

That is true, but lets imagine that Jonathon killed them, how would he convince the rest of his siblings not to rebel against the suicide theory? He may just have to go with the flow on that one if you get what I mean.

 

[deugirtni]

I think there is a good argument that the family would not have wanted their parents life to end with such a black mark as murder suicide. Seems they were heavily involved in charitable organizations and taking money from the Shermans would be the equivalent of taking money from a murderer if that were the case. And obviously NOBODY wants to believe their father killed their mother. I'm not saying that is what happened but I see nothing to discount that as a possibility.

Hence why I suggested:

deugirtni said: ↑
RSBM
Unless perhaps their hopeful goal was to make it appear as a double suicide?

It may not have turned out to appear to TSP as they'd hoped, and instead, TPS first thought M/S. But somehow later, for whatever reasons we aren't privy to atm, they determined M/M.

 

[WINDSOR]

*The initial M/S theory was based on early speculation at the time of the discovery of the bodies, prior to a thorough investigation.

IMO this is a false statement. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the M/S theory was the main theory for quite some time.

rickcross,
Please define: quite 'some time'. The TPS never ever made an official statement that their theory was a M/S occurred. After six weeks of investigation the TPS ruled it officially a double homicide.

'plenty of evidence' would you share some of this evidence, because beyond two dead bodies, I am not aware of any evidence that supports the Murder-Suicide theory. Remember evidence is very different than theory, supposition, opinion or speculation.

 

[dotr]

New Toronto park to pay tribute to the late Honey and Barry Sherman | TRNTO.com
July 30 2019 by Nicole Richie
"A campaign to build the Honey & Barry Sherman Community Park (HBCP) was born with the intent of creating a beautiful community park for all of Toronto to enjoy. The late couple’s daughter Alex Krawczyk and family friend Fred Waks are serving as honorary co-chairs, with the help of the leadership team, run by Debbie and Warren Kimel.

“The community park will feature walkways and hiking trails accompanied with educational signage which will indicate the wildlife, flora, and fauna that inhabits this beautiful greenspace,” said Lisa Morrison, Senior Vice President of Philanthropy & Capital Development at the UJA Federation.

The space will be used for outdoor festivals, concerts, farmers markets and even the UJA Centre Camp, which has previously been run at the Lebovic Campus.

“Everything they did — all their charitable leadership efforts, including the time and energy they spent helping to raise money, as well as the significant funds they donated themselves — was geared to supporting the health and well-being of the people of Toronto,” said Warren and Debbie Kimel, heads of the HBCP Leadership Team. “What better place to honour them than a beautiful park, which invites people to celebrate the beauty of nature and to enjoy life. It is truly a wonderful and fitting tribute to their legacy.”

 

[dotr]

Unrelated, but unusual for the neighbourhood and close enough to the Sherman home that i thought it should be noted here, fwiw.
Aug 4 2019
Man rushed to hospital after shooting on The Bridle Path
"A man believed to be in his 20s was rushed to hospital following an early-morning shooting in The Bridle Path area Sunday."
"Yellow police tape cordoned off a home on the street early Sunday and a number of people could be seen standing about within the home's gates.

According to police, there was a crowd of about 20 to 30 people in the area at the time of the shooting. Arrogante said it's not yet clear exactly what the gathering was for."

"Yellow police tape cordons off a home following a shooting on The Bridle Path Sunday August 4, 2019."
Timberglade Court, North York, ON to 50 old colony rd

6 min (3.5 km) via Bayview Ave
Never mind the "attachments"below.

 

[deugirtni]

Unrelated, but unusual for the neighbourhood and close enough to the Sherman home that i thought it should be noted here, fwiw.
Aug 4 2019
Man rushed to hospital after shooting on The Bridle Path
"A man believed to be in his 20s was rushed to hospital following an early-morning shooting in The Bridle Path area Sunday."
"Yellow police tape cordoned off a home on the street early Sunday and a number of people could be seen standing about within the home's gates.

According to police, there was a crowd of about 20 to 30 people in the area at the time of the shooting. Arrogante said it's not yet clear exactly what the gathering was for."

"Yellow police tape cordons off a home following a shooting on The Bridle Path Sunday August 4, 2019."
Timberglade Court, North York, ON to 50 old colony rd
Thx
6 min (3.5 km) via Bayview Ave
Never mind the "attachments"below.

Thx dotr, I can't get the attachments to work, can you try reposting?

 

[dotr]

Thx dotr, I can't get the attachments to work, can you try reposting?

The ones below post? They do not contain anything and i cannot delete them.

 

[JerseyGirl]

This thread has reached it's limit. I have set up a new thread and will be closing this one. Please continue here:

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12