Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

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nuff said:
These posts about the pool got me thinking about why there, not someplace upstairs. It's almost as if whoever did this (or arranged it?) perhaps wanted to prevent someone (a family member?) from entering the house and being shocked / traumatized by finding the bodies immediately. The location made it more likely they would be discovered by a cleaner or employee. I think we've assumed the pool has some significance in the staging, but perhaps it just offered a less visible, out-of-the-way place to leave them.
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In the basement if someone unexpectedly showed up, the killer might hear them come in the main door and he’d have a chance to escape, IMO.

(Maybe the door chimes as it is opened.)

When I sold my home I asked that 9:00pm was the cutoff for showings. A relative with a key could have dropped by or a real estate agent with clients.

How would the killer know he had the time to be in the home?
 
al66pine said:
@nuff
How likely was it that fam members - in particular, the children - would discover the bodies?
IIRC all their children lived (at least then) far away from Toronto, say, a couple hours driving time or more. If, if, if they were that far away, would the murderer be concerned about possibility of a child/the children discovering bodies? Not likely that one or all kids was going to pop in unexpectedly and make the horrid discovery. Not as if one or all lived down the street, a few blocks away, or even across the city.

All ^ IIRC and not saying I do recall correctly.
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I believe Jonathan and at least one daughter live in Toronto, so that was possible I guess. Also, neighbors, other relatives, friends could have shown up I guess.
 
Lexiintoronto said:
In the basement if someone unexpectedly showed up, the killer might hear them come in the main door and he’d have a chance to escape, IMO.

(Maybe the door chimes as it is opened.)

When I sold my home I asked that 9:00pm was the cutoff for showings. A relative with a key could have dropped by or a real estate agent with clients.

How would the killer know he had the time to be in the home?
Click to expand...

We are assuming that the killer(s) were in there for a while. But after Barry arrived, the murder/murders could have been completed quite quickly. Before Barry was home, the killer(s) could have had a lookout somewhere, either in the house or outside, to provide alerts, watch the front door, etc. HS could have been murdered right away; knocked unconscious; or perhaps was held hostage while one of them watched her. MOO
 
Thinking honey-badger "don't give a **** " who finds the bodies as long as the person who finds them is appropriately horrified, terrified and disgusted, all reactions a cold-blooded killer is incapable of experiencing themselves.
imo, speculation.
 
My assumption is that the basement and specifically the pool was chosen as the best place for the killer(s) to stage a M/S scenario, which was a central part of their plan. This method would be more physically demanding, more time-consuming, and inherently riskier than an obvious M/M scenario... there would be a greater chance of getting caught at the scene or leaving behind evidence. And yet, it seemingly worked, at least to some degree, as it took six weeks for LE to declare it as a M/M. I believe that the desire to create a M/S scenario was the primary driving factor behind most or all of the killer(s)' actions.
 
ldlager said:
We are assuming that the killer(s) were in there for a while. But after Barry arrived, the murder/murders could have been completed quite quickly. Before Barry was home, the killer(s) could have had a lookout somewhere, either in the house or outside, to provide alerts, watch the front door, etc. HS could have been murdered right away; knocked unconscious; or perhaps was held hostage while one of them watched her. MOO
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It is not too hard to put up a temporary cctv camera and watch for people entering or leaving the home. imo.
 
ldlager said:
I believe Jonathan and at least one daughter live in Toronto, so that was possible I guess. Also, neighbors, other relatives, friends could have shown up I guess.
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TY @ldager for the correction. I confused the Shermans w another case of senior age H & W deaths.
One or more children living in the same city increases chances of an unscheduled drop-in, having a key and/or alarm code to walk right in,and then discovering bodies. So may or may not have been a concern for the murderer(s).
And yes, @ldlager neighbors, other relatives, friends showing up may have had keys/codes, may have been able to enter, & discover bodies.
Jmo.
 
They say never peddle backwards on a bicycle built for 4,000, but that item found in the driveway...an earring?

Anyone think it's significant?

Cannot recall if it was found at the lip if the driveway, but I think so, which is why I kind of wrote it off.

Anyone? Gut feeling, yay or nay?
 
William_60 said:
They say never peddle backwards on a bicycle built for 4,000, but that item found in the driveway...an earring?

Anyone think it's significant?

Cannot recall if it was found at the lip if the driveway, but I think so, which is why I kind of wrote it off.

Anyone? Gut feeling, yay or nay?
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It ( 2 pieces as I recall) was found at the end of the driveway, in fact on the road just over the end of the driveway. Either police missed it in six weeks of metal detecting and searching for evidence, or someone dropped or planted it there. From what I can tell as a male that doesn’t know much about earrings, it sure looked a lot like earrings that honey had been photographed wearing in the past. Not sure of the significance though, we know she was involved in a struggle, so if that struggle was outside on the driveway as she got out of her car the earring may have been knocked off and worked it’s way with melting snow to the end of the driveway. It would be most interesting to know if her body was found missing one or both earrings.
 
The earring in my opinion has no relevance. It is an object with mass which will not blow in the wind or stick to someones shoe, so why would it be down by the road? If it were found somewhere between Honey's car and the front door, I'd have a different opinion. Just another piece of crap found on a busy walkway.
 
rickcross said:
The earring in my opinion has no relevance. It is an object with mass which will not blow in the wind or stick to someones shoe, so why would it be down by the road? If it were found somewhere between Honey's car and the front door, I'd have a different opinion. Just another piece of crap found on a busy walkway.
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I agree, IMO it was a prop in the drama, scripted for the media, of the private family team vs TPS. The news media know they're competing with the likes of Game of Thrones, they're hungry for anything they can package up as news. And wiley coyotes know how to offer bait the media can't resist.

Everybody's figured out how to push the right buttons to get exactly the response they want: media attention, public attention. Except that, in this sort of case, neither of those will actually solve the crime.
 
Satchie said:
I agree, IMO it was a prop in the drama, scripted for the media, of the private family team vs TPS. The news media know they're competing with the likes of Game of Thrones, they're hungry for anything they can package up as news. And wiley coyotes know how to offer bait the media can't resist.

Everybody's figured out how to push the right buttons to get exactly the response they want: media attention, public attention. Except that, in this sort of case, neither of those will actually solve the crime.
Click to expand...

It was a media television crew on the scene who spotted the earring and directed Greenspan's team to it's location. I don't believe that the media would "plant" an earring for a prop to stir up controversy between TPS and the private team. Likewise, I don't think the private team would "plant" an earring as a prop in a murder investigation for any reason.

If the earring did not belong to Honey--it is irrelevant. If it has been determined that it was her earring, that is a different story, regardless of how it ended up at the end of her driveway, lodged in the gutter. jmo

Sherman family investigators hand over earring and other evidence collected at murdered billionaires’ home to Toronto police | The Star
 
The latest Dennis Oland trial, one that I felt had some parallels to the Sherman case, has ended with a Not Guilty verdict. The judge's ruling included this. "Justice Terrence Morrison of the New Brunswick Court of Queen’s Bench told a packed courtroom Friday there were too many “missing puzzle pieces” to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Interesting side fact, in the first trial before a jury, the jury found Oland guilty. Oland appealed and had a second trial before a judge alone.

I hope and believe the TPS is taking all this time in the Sherman case, to ensure there are no missing 'puzzle pieces' in this case.

On a side note, one of the characteristics of TV and Movie crime dramas, often the guilty party's 'lawyer up' quickly. Greenspan was ostensibly hired by the family to invigorate the investigation and search for the culprits. Other than the second autopsy, has there been anything done by the Greenspan team that one would believe has pushed the investigation forward?

Some have implied that the Greenspan's teams main focus is to monitor what the TPS is doing, so there will be no surprises for the family.
 
Jul 15, 2019
"Alexandra Krawczyk’s billionaire parents, Barry and Honey Sherman, were killed. After months of living in fear for her own life, she now wants to make sure their legacy of charity is maintained".
 
iveyguy said:
My assumption is that the basement and specifically the pool was chosen as the best place for the killer(s) to stage a M/S scenario, which was a central part of their plan. This method would be more physically demanding, more time-consuming, and inherently riskier than an obvious M/M scenario... there would be a greater chance of getting caught at the scene or leaving behind evidence. And yet, it seemingly worked, at least to some degree, as it took six weeks for LE to declare it as a M/M. I believe that the desire to create a M/S scenario was the primary driving factor behind most or all of the killer(s)' actions.
Click to expand...

Maybe also to avoid detection from anyone outside, seeing signs of struggle and the like through windows on first or upper floors.
 
WINDSOR said:
On a side note, one of the characteristics of TV and Movie crime dramas, often the guilty party's 'lawyer up' quickly.

Some have implied that the Greenspan's teams main focus is to monitor what the TPS is doing, so there will be no surprises for the family.
Click to expand...

rsb

From what I've seen on TV, guilty people quickly "lawyer up" while being questioned and taped by LE. It prevents LE from further questioning and recording any statements that could incriminate them. We only know that the Sherman kids immediately rejected the murder/suicide theory the day after the murders.

They hired Greenspan's team almost two weeks later. That doesn't sound like anybody lawyered up quickly to me. I am not reading comments on social media so I haven't heard what people have implied about why the family hired outside investigators. I can understand why they did. I'm pretty sure that Greenspan's team is not privy to the TPS investigation, so I don't think they can actually monitor them. jmo
 
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