Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[Lexiintoronto]

This is terribly Square One-ish of me, but I can't fathom, based on body positioning at the time of discovery, how m/s was initially accepted as the likeliest scenario.

In a case full of nagging questions, it's the one that nags the most.

If Honey had been found as she was, but Barry was found hanging, that's a scene that would immediately seem to spell m/s, though it would not necessarily mean m/s took place.

Murder made to look like M/S.

If the bodies were found exactly as has been made public, to me, that calls for a deep probe long before any conclusion can be drawn and...made public.

I feel exactly the same way.

The Toronto Star made it sound as if they and the second private autopsy changed the ruling from m/s to m/m. If true, that should be publicly cleared up. (In addition to the delays in interviewing witnesses and obtaining and reviewing CCTV footage.)

True Crime Garage in their podcast theorized that Honey’s murder is the X factor: find out the motive for killing her and it will lead to the murderer(s).

I would add to that find out who would benefit from it looking like a m/s.

These podcasts are older and have been posted here before, but for reference:

Barry and Honey Sherman /// Part 1 /// 210 from True Crime Garage

Barry and Honey Sherman /// Part 2 /// 211 from True Crime Garage

 

[ldlager]

I feel exactly the same way.

The Toronto Star made it sound as if they and the second private autopsy changed the ruling from m/s to m/m. If true, that should be publicly cleared up. (In addition to the delays in interviewing witnesses and obtaining and reviewing CCTV footage.)

True Crime Garage in their podcast theorized that Honey’s murder is the X factor: find out the motive for killing her and it will lead to the murderer(s).

I would add to that find out who would benefit from it looking like a m/s.

These podcasts are older and have been posted here before, but for reference:

Barry and Honey Sherman /// Part 1 /// 210 from True Crime Garage

Barry and Honey Sherman /// Part 2 /// 211 from True Crime Garage

IIRC, the first autopsy was reportedly inconclusive as to the method of death (ie m/s, m/m; s/s)). It was only sometime after the second autopsy that LE announced a m/m conclusion. Mind you, that was also after the hiring and involvement of Greenspan and his PI crew, and whatever influence they or the family had on the determination of the final M/M finding. There may have been alot of influence, or none; maybe LE found other evidence that led them to announce a M/M conclusion, and the second autopsy played little/no role in that finding. I don't think we know at this point what definitively drove them to their announced conclusion.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

IIRC, the first autopsy was reportedly inconclusive as to the method of death (ie m/s, m/m; s/s)). It was only sometime after the second autopsy that LE announced a m/m conclusion. Mind you, that was also after the hiring and involvement of Greenspan and his PI crew, and whatever influence they or the family had on the determination of the final M/M finding. There may have been alot of influence, or none; maybe LE found other evidence that led them to announce a M/M conclusion, and the second autopsy played little/no role in that finding. I don't think we know at this point what definitively drove them to their announced conclusion.

I think that you’re right about there being other evidence to support m/m.

However, the Star seemed to suggest that their report of the findings of the second autopsies influenced the official ruling of m/m, IMO.

On Friday, Jan. 19, the Toronto Star published an investigative report revealing that the private investigation team, including Dr. Chiasson, had concluded it was a case of double murder.

The following Monday, the Toronto police homicide squad interviewed Dr. Chiasson. That Friday, Jan. 26, at a well-attended press conference at police headquarters, Homicide Det. Sgt. Susan Gomes announced that after closely investigating three theories of the death, police had ruled it a double homicide.

The next batch of search warrants and production orders filed by police, on Feb. 15, listed both Barry and Honey as victims of homicide. One of those production orders is a judicial authorization to obtain “all medical records for Bernard Sherman and Anna Debra Honey Sherman obtained by Dr. Michael Pickup under the authority of the Coroner’s Act during the coroner’s investigation” into the Sherman deaths. That document, filed in court, does not detail or explain the records at issue.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[William_60]

These podcasts are older and have been posted here before, but for reference:

Barry and Honey Sherman /// Part 1 /// 210 from True Crime Garage

Barry and Honey Sherman /// Part 2 /// 211 from True Crime Garage

Excellent stuff. Highly recommend these to anyone who hasn't heard them yet.

Thanks for posting them.

 

[rickcross]

This is terribly Square One-ish of me, but I can't fathom, based on body positioning at the time of discovery, how m/s was initially accepted as the likeliest scenario.

In a case full of nagging questions, it's the one that nags the most.

If Honey had been found as she was, but Barry was found hanging, that's a scene that would immediately seem to spell m/s, though it would not necessarily mean m/s took place.

Murder made to look like M/S.

If the bodies were found exactly as has been made public, to me, that calls for a deep probe long before any conclusion can be drawn and...made public.

Possibly is was a M/S that Barry tried to stage as a S/S?

 

[WINDSOR]

This is terribly Square One-ish of me, but I can't fathom, based on body positioning at the time of discovery, how m/s was initially accepted as the likeliest scenario.

In a case full of nagging questions, it's the one that nags the most.

If Honey had been found as she was, but Barry was found hanging, that's a scene that would immediately seem to spell m/s, though it would not necessarily mean m/s took place.

Murder made to look like M/S.

If the bodies were found exactly as has been made public, to me, that calls for a deep probe long before any conclusion can be drawn and...made public.

I agree William. But remember the TPS did not make any final, official and definitive ruling on the deaths being targeted murders, until six weeks after the event. Prior to that time, it was mostly media and supposed 'insiders' who were talking about murder-suicide. Many on this forum, when considering the body placements and other factors never accepted the M/S scenario.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree William. But remember the TPS did not make any final, official and definitive ruling on the deaths being targeted murders, until six weeks after the event. Prior to that time, it was mostly media and supposed 'insiders' who were talking about murder-suicide. Many on this forum, when considering the body placements and other factors never accepted the M/S scenario.

I think it’s very interesting how Greenspan compares the anonymous source who spoke to both Donovan and the CBC about findings including the 2nd autopsy to the anonymous police source who initially declared m/s. To date, virtually all information released into the media about this case has originated from undisclosed sources with the exception of KW.

“CBC has also spoken to an unnamed source about the Sherman case.

“Private investigators believe that the billionaire Toronto couple found dead at their home in December were murdered by multiple killers, a source with direct knowledge of the parallel probe into their mysterious deaths told CBC Toronto.”

Greenspan said both reports surprised him.

“Again, I have no idea where they are getting their information,” he said. “If it’s from one of our people — and we will find out — that person will be dropped from our team.”

“I highly doubt it’s from anyone on our team,” Greenspan added.

However, he would not confirm nor deny these reports, or any reports, that are based on unnamed sources. He said he feels the same way about such details allegedly coming from his group as he does “any information coming from unauthorized police sources.”...”
WARMINGTON: Billionaire Shermans slain by contract killers?

 

[William_60]

After listening to the two-part TSG show on the case, a question.

Did I hear correctly, or imagine it: Honey's and Barry's cell phones weren't found?

 

[ldlager]

I agree William. But remember the TPS did not make any final, official and definitive ruling on the deaths being targeted murders, until six weeks after the event. Prior to that time, it was mostly media and supposed 'insiders' who were talking about murder-suicide. Many on this forum, when considering the body placements and other factors never accepted the M/S scenario.

As a follow up to my last post, it is also possible and perhaps probable that LE suspected M/M from the beginning, but positioned it publicly (indirectly) initially as M/S for some reason. I believe the family was told by LE early on not to believe everything they were reading in the press, but the family hired Greenspan in any event. And that has in turn led to the strained relationship between the family side and LE. IMO.

 

[William_60]

I know there's a lull right now, a lull that doesn't help us make much, if any headway, but with more than one nod to the TCG 2-parter, here are some random thoughts and opinions...

> the primary TSG host (the one who lead the discussion) believes Honey was attacked after parking Wednesday night and this was how perps gained access.

* Agree. Not 100 per cent, but I believe there was a scuffle in that initial attack, hence her facial injuries.

> Both Honey and Barry were targets.

Barry is the one that, through hardened business practises, accrued a scroll's worth of enemies, but he could indeed have been taken out solo.

The driver behind this crime held both to a high degree of contempt, to put it mildly.

> I cannot pinpoint the who and when, but fairly recently, the TPS described the investigation as large.

Hmmm. In what way? Much of the legwork had been done months before. Assigned personnel to the case are not, from what I have read, extraordinarily large in number.

Supposition: The investigation is large because it is apparent to investigators a group was involved and finding links of the perps to who hired them is possibly far-reaching and definitely time-consuming.

> Lastly, very personally, the body positioning is making a statement, rooted in anger.

* Turned away from the pool...

I am surmising this is meant to say "these people did not deserve to have and enjoy a basement pool."

Just some thoughts - that I hope make sense.

 

[ldlager]

I know there's a lull right now, a lull that doesn't help us make much, if any headway, but with more than one nod to the TCG 2-parter, here are some random thoughts and opinions...

> the primary TSG host (the one who lead the discussion) believes Honey was attacked after parking Wednesday night and this was how perps gained access.

* Agree. Not 100 per cent, but I believe there was a scuffle in that initial attack, hence her facial injuries.

> Both Honey and Barry were targets.

Barry is the one that, through hardened business practises, accrued a scroll's worth of enemies, but he could indeed have been taken out solo.

The driver behind this crime held both to a high degree of contempt, to put it mildly.

> I cannot pinpoint the who and when, but fairly recently, the TPS described the investigation as large.

Hmmm. In what way? Much of the legwork had been done months before. Assigned personnel to the case are not, from what I have read, extraordinarily large in number.

Supposition: The investigation is large because it is apparent to investigators a group was involved and finding links of the perps to who hired them is possibly far-reaching and definitely time-consuming.

> Lastly, very personally, the body positioning is making a statement, rooted in anger.

* Turned away from the pool...

I am surmising this is meant to say "these people did not deserve to have and enjoy a basement pool."

Just some thoughts - that I hope make sense.

Keep in mind - re positioning- perhaps arranging the bodies to face towards the pool was difficult due to the lack of space between the railing and the edge of the pool. Their their bodies would have to be manipulated and arranged to fit into that very limited space, and that might have been too difficult . Perhaps there wasn't enough room to easily arrange the bodies facing the pool.

 

[William_60]

Keep in mind - re positioning- perhaps arranging the bodies to face towards the pool was difficult due to the lack of space between the railing and the edge of the pool. Their their bodies would have to be manipulated and arranged to fit into that very limited space, and that might have been too difficult . Perhaps there wasn't enough room to easily arrange the bodies facing the pool.

I hear you. Just a longtime gut feeling.

 

[deugirtni]

I always wondered if there was a big wall-to-wall mirror there that they were facing instead of the pool. But I suppose if that had been the case, we would've heard mention of it somewhere along the line by now.

 

[ldlager]

I hear you. Just a longtime gut feeling.

I understand. It could be for sure.

 

[casesensitive]

I've always thought the same as noted by Idlager--that positioning the bodies facing the pool would have been too difficult. The railing is mere inches from the side of the pool and their legs would have been in the water, or on top of the pool cover if it was in place. It would physically difficult enough to string a heavy body up to the railing by a belt. The bodies could have slipped into the pool if attempting to do it the other way.

Picture of the pool:

Sources reveal details of ‘suspicious’ deaths of Apotex founder Barry Sherman and wife Honey

 

[casesensitive]

I always wondered if there was a big wall-to-wall mirror there that they were facing instead of the pool. But I suppose if that had been the case, we would've heard mention of it somewhere along the line by now.

I think we would have heard about any mirrors also. If we believe the second autopsy, they were killed before they were tied to the pool railing. Regardless, I think we would heard about a significant mirror.

 

[nuff]

These posts about the pool got me thinking about why there, not someplace upstairs. It's almost as if whoever did this (or arranged it?) perhaps wanted to prevent someone (a family member?) from entering the house and being shocked / traumatized by finding the bodies immediately. The location made it more likely they would be discovered by a cleaner or employee. I think we've assumed the pool has some significance in the staging, but perhaps it just offered a less visible, out-of-the-way place to leave them.

 

[ldlager]

These posts about the pool got me thinking about why there, not someplace upstairs. It's almost as if whoever did this (or arranged it?) perhaps wanted to prevent someone (a family member?) from entering the house and being shocked / traumatized by finding the bodies immediately. The location made it more likely they would be discovered by a cleaner or employee. I think we've assumed the pool has some significance in the staging, but perhaps it just offered a less visible, out-of-the-way place to leave them.

I think they attacked and subdued Barry as he made his way from his car in the garage into the house via the basement area. The basement afforded the killer(s) maximum privacy and I'm sure they didn't want to be traipsing around the rest of the house potentially leaving evidence as they went; or possibly being seen through a window.

 

[deugirtni]

These posts about the pool got me thinking about why there, not someplace upstairs. It's almost as if whoever did this (or arranged it?) perhaps wanted to prevent someone (a family member?) from entering the house and being shocked / traumatized by finding the bodies immediately. The location made it more likely they would be discovered by a cleaner or employee. I think we've assumed the pool has some significance in the staging, but perhaps it just offered a less visible, out-of-the-way place to leave them.

Perhaps to not be found quite as quickly?

 

[al66pine]

These posts about the pool got me thinking about why there, not someplace upstairs. It's almost as if whoever did this (or arranged it?) perhaps wanted to prevent someone (a family member?) from entering the house and being shocked / traumatized by finding the bodies immediately. The location made it more likely they would be discovered by a cleaner or employee. I think we've assumed the pool has some significance in the staging, but perhaps it just offered a less visible, out-of-the-way place to leave them.

@nuff
How likely was it that fam members - in particular, the children - would discover the bodies?
IIRC all their children lived (at least then) far away from Toronto, say, a couple hours driving time or more. If, if, if they were that far away, would the murderer be concerned about possibility of a child/the children discovering bodies? Not likely that one or all kids was going to pop in unexpectedly and make the horrid discovery. Not as if one or all lived down the street, a few blocks away, or even across the city.

All ^ IIRC and not saying I do recall correctly.