Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[deugirtni]

Nowhere during the PC did Nomes say the Coroner ruled the Sherman deaths Undermined. What she said was the manner was undetermined (ie not determined, unknown).

“The cause of death for both of the Shermans was ligature neck compression. The manner was undetermined with the only presented options being double suicide, homicide/suicide and double homicide.......”

During the press conference Gomes did in fact say the deaths had been ruled undetermined, just as you have quoted above; she was at that time talking about the 'official' autopsy (as opposed to the hired autopsy), and stating what it showed - the cause of death and manner of death. The cause of death was known, the manner of death was undetermined. The police were given 3 possible options because it was obvious that the deaths were not 'natural', nor 'accidental'. There are only so many options available to list as the manner of death in any death. The coroner would have filled out a death certificate to that effect, so that the burials could take place. If the coroner had subsequently changed his manner of death determination after 6 weeks, then I'm sure Gomes would have said so. What she said was that they have now determined that they are 'investigating' a double homicide:

"We believe now, through the six weeks of work, review, we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide investigation. And that both Honey and Barry Sherman were in fact targeted."

I'm not sure that Gomes can speak on behalf of other institutions and government bodies, etc., so it is my belief that when Gomes says 'we', she in fact does mean TPS.

Of course in any case, all of the standard parties work together to find answers, TPS was undoubtedly hoping the coroner would be able to help them out with that manner of death. Instead, the coroner for whatever reasons we don't yet know, was unable to determine for sure whether it was M/S, S/S, or M/M. I believe it is now up to TPS to prove which manner it was, before it would be changed from 'undetermined'.

We have discussed this before, and it's okay to have different beliefs. This is *my* belief.

 

[ldlager]

Yes, but that doesn't mesh with your 'theft' theory, that meshes more with the targeted-for-their-money theory, with their murders being a necessary part of the plan, else the theft of a will would be meaningless if the writer of the will was still alive to change said will. imo.

I didn't mean they were killed because they were going to steal her will. I only pointed out that at least one thing is missing, and using that as an example to show that maybe other things were missing that we don't know about yet.

 

[ldlager]

The Sherman deaths were officially announced as a targeted double homicide well over a year ago. TPS is reportedly engaged in an active, ongoing investigation however no charges have been laid as yet.

Who gains by unfounded and unproven public allegations involving conspiracy theories to insinuate a double homicide never occurred and the investigation is superficial due to corruption, incompetence, politically influence or financial benefit (pick one)?

Answer - The killer.

I have no intention of jumping on that bandwagon.

What’s it to you?

RBBM- That is not an accurate statement. LE has not confirmed or stated that this was a "targeted double homicide". What LE did indicate was that they believe this was a double homicide; and that they believe that the Shermans were targeted. They did not say they were specifically targeted to be murdered. It may seem like semantics, but it would have been very easy for LE to be clear and to simply state that the Shermans were targeted to be murdered. They did not state that.

 

[dotr]

Wondering how well anybody using transit could see the Sherman home?
50 Old Colony Road, Toronto ON - Walk Score
50 Old Colony Road
St.Andrew-Windfields, Toronto, M2L 2K1

Commute to Downtown Toronto

34 min 50 min 54 min 60+ min

Most errands require a car.
Good Transit
Many nearby public transportation options.

Somewhat Bikeable
50 Old Colony Road has a Walk Score of 35 out of 100. This location is a Car-Dependent neighborhood so most errands require a car.

50 Old Colony Road is a 19 minute walk from the 4 LINE 4 (SHEPPARD) at the BAYVIEW STATION - EASTBOUND PLATFORM stop.

This location is in the St.Andrew-Windfields neighborhood in Toronto. Nearby parks include Rean Park, Talara Park and York Mills Park.

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50 Old Colony Road has good transit which means many nearby public transportation options. Car sharing is available from Zipcar.

 

[MistyWaters]

During the press conference Gomes did in fact say the deaths had been ruled undetermined, just as you have quoted above; she was at that time talking about the 'official' autopsy (as opposed to the hired autopsy), and stating what it showed - the cause of death and manner of death. The cause of death was known, the manner of death was undetermined. The police were given 3 possible options because it was obvious that the deaths were not 'natural', nor 'accidental'. There are only so many options available to list as the manner of death in any death. The coroner would have filled out a death certificate to that effect, so that the burials could take place. If the coroner had subsequently changed his manner of death determination after 6 weeks, then I'm sure Gomes would have said so. What she said was that they have now determined that they are 'investigating' a double homicide:

"We believe now, through the six weeks of work, review, we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide investigation. And that both Honey and Barry Sherman were in fact targeted."

I'm not sure that Gomes can speak on behalf of other institutions and government bodies, etc., so it is my belief that when Gomes says 'we', she in fact does mean TPS.

Of course in any case, all of the standard parties work together to find answers, TPS was undoubtedly hoping the coroner would be able to help them out with that manner of death. Instead, the coroner for whatever reasons we don't yet know, was unable to determine for sure whether it was M/S, S/S, or M/M. I believe it is now up to TPS to prove which manner it was, before it would be changed from 'undetermined'.

We have discussed this before, and it's okay to have different beliefs. This is *my* belief.

And I respect your belief...I’m just trying to understand it.

I think you’ll agree there’s various roles and responsibilities within any murder investigation. The Coroner/Forensic Pathologists are highly trained medical professionals who investigate how death occurred. If it was caused by homicide, police are highly trained to determine who caused it.

So I’m curious to whom you think TPS would be successful in endeavouring to prove a double homicide occurred, if they weren’t able to do so in the first six weeks prior to the press conference.

Because if/when charges are laid by the Crown, obviously the Prosecutor must call upon the Coroner and the Forensic Pathologists to testify. Given your scenario, I’m trying to imagine what that testimony might consist of, if they saw no conclusive evidence of a double homicide.

Would they testify it was not possible to determine how the extent and location of the injuries on the victims necks relate to the placement of the belts? So each of the two might’ve caused their own deaths or maybe they were strangled and their bodies staged or maybe Barry strangled his wife and then contorted himself in a suicide pose to match his wife’s body position? If skin from the wrist was removed, it proved nothing? If Barry was posed, legs straight out, well maybe it was just a quirk of death.....?

Do you really think the Office of the Chief Coroner in Ontario is that incompetent, given the recent focus on other undetected homicides? There are several medical journals and studies appearing on the Internet that indicate, through medical examination, differences are obvious between strangulation caused by suicide and homicide. Several of those links have been posted on these threads. But nobody in Ontario attempted to even look, instead they just threw up their hands in defeat???

I hope I’ve explained why your scenario has me baffled.

 

[Tighthead]

I didn't mean they were killed because they were going to steal her will. I only pointed out that at least one thing is missing, and using that as an example to show that maybe other things were missing that we don't know about yet.

Saying the will is missing presumes there was one. It may never have existed, which I believe Donovan alluded to in a radio interview.

 

[casesensitive]

I used to be like Misty--I always believed in LE, and trusted them, and accepted their silence as they investigated cases. I still do, but I don't with the TPS, which was difficult for me to realize and to voice.

If you google the Bruce McArthur case, and see how badly TPS screwed up, and how Chief Mark Saunders tried to temper public outrage by saying that there is "no proof that McArthur was a serial killer" --even though McArthur admitted he was---how can you ever trust anything he says? His main goal was to cover his butt, and he lost all credibility imo.

He replaced Susan Gomes with his buddy who was the lead investigator in the McArthur fiasco. I'm not sure what to make of that, but I have made note of it.

I don't trust Chief Saunders. I'll just leave it at that, and hope that I'm wrong. moo

 

[Tighthead]

I used to be like Misty--I always believed in LE, and trusted them, and accepted their silence as they investigated cases. I still do, but I don't with the TPS, which was difficult for me to realize and to voice.

If you google the Bruce McArthur case, and see how badly TPS screwed up, and how Chief Mark Saunders tried to temper public outrage by saying that there is "no proof that McArthur was a serial killer" --even though McArthur admitted he was---how can you ever trust anything he says? His main goal was to cover his butt, and he lost all credibility imo.

He replaced Susan Gomes with his buddy who was the lead investigator in the McArthur fiasco. I'm not sure what to make of that, but I have made note of it.

I don't trust Chief Saunders. I'll just leave it at that, and hope that I'm wrong. moo

Any case where you have the mayor getting immediately involved, with a complete lack of discretion is what Harry Bosch calls “high jingo”.

I can’t recall if the PM also stuck his nose in. I recall he did but I may be muddled.

 

[MistyWaters]

I used to be like Misty--I always believed in LE, and trusted them, and accepted their silence as they investigated cases. I still do, but I don't with the TPS, which was difficult for me to realize and to voice.

If you google the Bruce McArthur case, and see how badly TPS screwed up, and how Chief Mark Saunders tried to temper public outrage by saying that there is "no proof that McArthur was a serial killer" --even though McArthur admitted he was---how can you ever trust anything he says? His main goal was to cover his butt, and he lost all credibility imo.

He replaced Susan Gomes with his buddy who was the lead investigator in the McArthur fiasco. I'm not sure what to make of that, but I have made note of it.

I don't trust Chief Saunders. I'll just leave it at that, and hope that I'm wrong. moo

This is a reason I keep harping the separation of duties between the Provincial Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiners and police departments. They work in a partnership but the chain of command is separate and distinct.

I’m not as all trusting as you might think. Can you imagine if police departments could choose which deaths were homicides AND investigate who they decided is responsible? That’s way too much power, far behind my comfort level. It’d be too easy for LE to not investigate certain deaths that were actually murders or frame innocent people for a homicide that never occurred.

 

[casesensitive]

This is a reason I keep harping the separation of duties between the Provincial Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiners and police departments. They work in a partnership but the chain of command is separate and distinct.

I’m not as all trusting as you might think. Can you imagine if police departments could choose which deaths were homicides AND investigate who they decided is responsible? That’s way too much power, far behind my comfort level. It’d be too easy for LE to not investigate certain deaths that were actually murders or frame innocent people for a homicide that never occurred.

I'm not sure what point you are making re LE and Medical examiners not working together. In this case they did, and the Provincial Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiners determined the cause of death, but not a manner of death..eg suicide or murder. Their report essentially finalized their duty, participation and partnership with LE in the case.

It was now up to LE to determine the manner of death and how to proceed with their investigation. I think the coroner's report which didn't even suggest homicide was possible (although the pathologist did consider it) led them down the wrong path of M/S being the likely manner of death, which they thought from the beginning.

 

[dotr]

"Dec 21, 2017
Thousands of mourners paid tribute to a billionaire philanthropist couple who died under suspicious circumstances. The memorial was held at a convention centre in Mississauga, Ont."

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not sure what point you are making re LE and Medical examiners not working together. In this case they did, and the Provincial Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiners determined the cause of death, but not a manner of death..eg suicide or murder. Their report essentially finalized their duty, participation and partnership with LE in the case.

It was now up to LE to determine the manner of death and how to proceed with their investigation. I think the coroner's report which didn't even suggest homicide was possible (although the pathologist did consider it) led them down the wrong path of M/S being the likely manner of death, which they thought from the beginning.

When will we learn if LE has determined the manner of death? I’d think that something that should happen prior to a homicide investigation otherwise they’re wasting their time.

 

[MistyWaters]

Just to point out, TPS does not hold copyright on usage of the word “investigation”.

“The OFPS works closely with the Office of the Chief Coroner to ensure a coordinated and collaborative approach to death investigation in the public interest. Together, the Chief Forensic Pathologist and Chief Coroner provide dual leadership for the death investigation system in Ontario.”
Ontario Forensic Pathology Service | Ministry of the Solicitor General

 

[deugirtni]

And I respect your belief...I’m just trying to understand it.

I think you’ll agree there’s various roles and responsibilities within any murder investigation. The Coroner/Forensic Pathologists are highly trained medical professionals who investigate how death occurred. If it was caused by homicide, police are highly trained to determine who caused it.

So I’m curious to whom you think TPS would be successful in endeavouring to prove a double homicide occurred, if they weren’t able to do so in the first six weeks prior to the press conference.

Because if/when charges are laid by the Crown, obviously the Prosecutor must call upon the Coroner and the Forensic Pathologists to testify. Given your scenario, I’m trying to imagine what that testimony might consist of, if they saw no conclusive evidence of a double homicide.

Would they testify it was not possible to determine how the extent and location of the injuries on the victims necks relate to the placement of the belts? So each of the two might’ve caused their own deaths or maybe they were strangled and their bodies staged or maybe Barry strangled his wife and then contorted himself in a suicide pose to match his wife’s body position? If skin from the wrist was removed, it proved nothing? If Barry was posed, legs straight out, well maybe it was just a quirk of death.....?

Do you really think the Office of the Chief Coroner in Ontario is that incompetent, given the recent focus on other undetected homicides? There are several medical journals and studies appearing on the Internet that indicate, through medical examination, differences are obvious between strangulation caused by suicide and homicide. Several of those links have been posted on these threads. But nobody in Ontario attempted to even look, instead they just threw up their hands in defeat???

I hope I’ve explained why your scenario has me baffled.

I'm sorry that you cannot understand, I have tried more than once to explain it. The coroner/ME is given the bodies, the crimescene, and pertinent facts from the police, lab, perhaps medical records, etc. The coroner, after doing the autopsy and having all of that info, called 'undetermined'. If he had been able to see that the angles of the wounds from the ligatures that caused their deaths undoubtedly meant they were both strangled to death before being hung, then he would have called double homicide since it would be impossible for both to be hung after death, but he didn't do that. Obviously this case wasn't as cut and dried as that. It does not mean he is incompetent, it simply means that he was unable to confidently declare which manner it was for each of them. Undetermined doesn't mean that it *wasn't* homicide in each case. Gomes' words were chosen very carefully, imho, but her words did not include that the coroner had changed his undetermined ruling, to double homicide.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Les héritiers Sherman obtiennent un répit temporaire contre la presse
Google translation
Sherman heirs get temporary respite from press
Published on Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 22 h 10
The Ontario Court of Appeal accepts the stay of Barry and Honey Sherman's family, who are trying to prevent the press from getting their hands on inheritance documents. The Sherman husbands were murdered in 2017 at their home in Toronto and no one was arrested for their murder.
-.-
Ann Brocklehurst‏ @AnnB03 6. Juni
Ann Brocklehurst hat Jean-Philippe Nadeau retweetet

We're not going to see those Barry and Honey Sherman estate documents for a while, it seems

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm sorry that you cannot understand, I have tried more than once to explain it. The coroner/ME is given the bodies, the crimescene, and pertinent facts from the police, lab, perhaps medical records, etc. The coroner, after doing the autopsy and having all of that info, called 'undetermined'. If he had been able to see that the angles of the wounds from the ligatures that caused their deaths undoubtedly meant they were both strangled to death before being hung, then he would have called double homicide since it would be impossible for both to be hung after death, but he didn't do that. Obviously this case wasn't as cut and dried as that. It does not mean he is incompetent, it simply means that he was unable to confidently declare which manner it was for each of them. Undetermined doesn't mean that it *wasn't* homicide in each case. Gomes' words were chosen very carefully, imho, but her words did not include that the coroner had changed his undetermined ruling, to double homicide.

Are you able to find anywhere, when police announce a homicide investigation is taking place, it’s because it’s attributed to the Coroners ruling? When police officially announce a homicide investigation it goes without saying the death investigation conducted by the various partners has determined a homicide occurred. Prior to that police investigate a “suspicious” death.

In all death investigations, until such time as a manner of death has been reached, it’s undermined. It’s impossible for an full autopsy to be open and shut within two days when the manner of death is not obvious. That’s why additional investigation takes place, to determine it.

All I ask is to keep an open mind. The word “undetermined” is commonly used by LE during death investigations.

Police do not suspect that any foul play contributed to the death, though circumstances remain undetermined, and police continue to investigate how the man died, and how he ended up inside the wall.
Body of dead man found in the wall of a Calgary mall washroom

It appears the fire originated on the front porch and spread, but the cause at this point remains undermined and under investigation, officials said.
Fire causes more than $100,000 damage to South Hadley home, sends father and daughter to hospital - masslive.com

 

[WINDSOR]

Les héritiers Sherman obtiennent un répit temporaire contre la presse
Google translation
Sherman heirs get temporary respite from press
Published on Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 22 h 10
The Ontario Court of Appeal accepts the stay of Barry and Honey Sherman's family, who are trying to prevent the press from getting their hands on inheritance documents. The Sherman husbands were murdered in 2017 at their home in Toronto and no one was arrested for their murder.
-.-
Ann Brocklehurst‏ @AnnB03 6. Juni
Ann Brocklehurst hat Jean-Philippe Nadeau retweetet

We're not going to see those Barry and Honey Sherman estate documents for a while, it seems

I am confused and maybe missing something. JP Nadeau is a CBC reporter, but as far as I can tell the CBC has not reported this story publically. The Ontario Appeals Court in May stated the documents had to be available to the public. The Sherman family was going to Appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada. As far as I know the Supreme Court has not even agreed to hear the appeal. I think the stay only means the documents will not be released until the Supreme Court decides what it will do.

 

[MistyWaters]

I am confused and maybe missing something. JP Nadeau is a CBC reporter, but as far as I can tell the CBC has not reported this story publically. The Ontario Appeals Court in May stated the documents had to be available to the public. The Sherman family was going to Appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada. As far as I know the Supreme Court has not even agreed to hear the appeal. I think the stay only means the documents will not be released until the Supreme Court decides what it will do.

As the documents were initially ordered to be released May 18th by the same Appeal Court, I agree it appears the stay has been issued while awaiting the Supreme Court’s decision to hear the case or not. It’s possible this tweet refers to the Appeal Court extending additional time beyond the original date of the stay.

“An Ontario Court of Appeal ruling has ordered court documents pertaining to the estates of Barry and Honey Sherman to be unsealed on May 18. “
Barry and Honey Sherman: Court to unseal estate documents - Macleans.ca

Supreme Court of Canada - Applications for Leave, Granted or Dismissed. The Sherman Estate case has not yet been adjudicated.
Navigation by Date: 2019 - SCC Cases (Lexum)

 

[dotr]

Can they not force the person in for questioning?
Video with Kevin D. LE have an idea what happened and a working theory.
April 25: Kevin Donovan on the Sherman case

 

[Tighthead]

I don’t think the SCC will grant leave. Just doesn’t seem to be of broad importance.

At some point the probate files will be unsealed, and they will be dull.