The Hyoid bones are another interesting piece of evidence. The coroner thought this may have been suicide because the Hyoid bones were not broken. But Chaisson argued that the hyoid doesn't always break during strangulation and that he had actually written a paper on that very topic years ago. However, the way I look at it, the mere fact that he had to write a paper on this subject would indicate that an unbroken hyoid is a rare occurrence. So what exactly are the odds that two people could be strangled and both of them experience this rare occurrence of of an unbroken hyoid? If a husband gets killed by lightning, you think "poor guy". Now if his wife is killed by lightning later the same day, you think "something isn't right here".
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12
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Regarding the hyoid bone.. interesting article which i cannot copy and paste...
Mystery surrounds hyoid break in Epstein death
Warning, Grim reading...
The Hangman's Fracture - Dr Lindsey Fitzharris
"In the 20th century, death by hanging was intended to be quick. The drop and jerk were designed to dislocate the first two vertebrae in the neck, severing the spinal cord at that point. Because the nerves which control breathing are located beneath the 3rd, 4th and 5th vertebrae, air can no longer move in and out of the lungs. Death occurs within minutes.
In the 18th century, those who died on the scaffold were not as lucky. The time it took to die depended on several factors—the knot, the rope, the drop and the jerk—none of which had been perfected during this period. Thus, those who were hanged typically suffered slow, agonizing deaths as they gradually choked—their necks unbroken and their lungs still gasping for air. As long as the muscles in the neck stayed strong, a person could dangle at the end of a rope for upwards of thirty minutes before he or she died.
Even at that, death was not always guaranteed. Although it was rare, there were certainly instances of people being cut down from the gallows, only to miraculously resuscitate on the dissecting table. (Read more here).
The hyoid bone (pictured below) is located inside the larynx, and sits at the base of the tongue. This delicate bone is the only one in the body which is not connected to another. Encased in muscles and ligaments, it is very well protected from breakage and injury. However, during strangulation or hanging, the hyoid snaps, resulting in ‘the hangman’s fracture’.
Hyoid bone
Sandra Bland's autopsy shows no signs of violent homicide, Texas prosecutor says
"The autopsy of Sandra Bland, whose death touched off a furor among activists after her body was found in a Texas jail cell, showed that her injuries were consistent with suicide and she did not have wounds indicating she was the victim of a violent homicide, officials said Thursday."
Using a PowerPoint presentation with graphic pictures, Diepraam walked through the findings, saying the physical evidence supported suicide and the lack of violent wounds argued against homicide.
For example, the hyoid bone in her neck — which often shatters in a violent homicide — was unbroken and intact. The ligature mark from the strangling was regular rather than irregular, as would have happened if Bland had been attacked, Diepraam said."
Boston Strangler Case Autopsy Stirs Debate
"When Albert DeSalvo confessed to killing the last
alleged victim of the Boston Strangler, he said he struck her over
the head to knock her out, and then strangled her.
But when forensic experts conducted an autopsy on Mary Sullivan’s body Saturday, they found no signs of trauma to her head, and her hyoid bone — a fragile neck bone typically snapped during strangulation — unbroken.
The families of Sullivan and DeSalvo hope these findings will help exonerate DeSalvo — 36 years after the murder was committed, and 27 years after his death."
Mystery surrounds hyoid break in Epstein death
Warning, Grim reading...
The Hangman's Fracture - Dr Lindsey Fitzharris
"In the 20th century, death by hanging was intended to be quick. The drop and jerk were designed to dislocate the first two vertebrae in the neck, severing the spinal cord at that point. Because the nerves which control breathing are located beneath the 3rd, 4th and 5th vertebrae, air can no longer move in and out of the lungs. Death occurs within minutes.
In the 18th century, those who died on the scaffold were not as lucky. The time it took to die depended on several factors—the knot, the rope, the drop and the jerk—none of which had been perfected during this period. Thus, those who were hanged typically suffered slow, agonizing deaths as they gradually choked—their necks unbroken and their lungs still gasping for air. As long as the muscles in the neck stayed strong, a person could dangle at the end of a rope for upwards of thirty minutes before he or she died.
Even at that, death was not always guaranteed. Although it was rare, there were certainly instances of people being cut down from the gallows, only to miraculously resuscitate on the dissecting table. (Read more here).
The hyoid bone (pictured below) is located inside the larynx, and sits at the base of the tongue. This delicate bone is the only one in the body which is not connected to another. Encased in muscles and ligaments, it is very well protected from breakage and injury. However, during strangulation or hanging, the hyoid snaps, resulting in ‘the hangman’s fracture’.
Hyoid bone
Sandra Bland's autopsy shows no signs of violent homicide, Texas prosecutor says
"The autopsy of Sandra Bland, whose death touched off a furor among activists after her body was found in a Texas jail cell, showed that her injuries were consistent with suicide and she did not have wounds indicating she was the victim of a violent homicide, officials said Thursday."
Using a PowerPoint presentation with graphic pictures, Diepraam walked through the findings, saying the physical evidence supported suicide and the lack of violent wounds argued against homicide.
For example, the hyoid bone in her neck — which often shatters in a violent homicide — was unbroken and intact. The ligature mark from the strangling was regular rather than irregular, as would have happened if Bland had been attacked, Diepraam said."
Boston Strangler Case Autopsy Stirs Debate
"When Albert DeSalvo confessed to killing the last
alleged victim of the Boston Strangler, he said he struck her over
the head to knock her out, and then strangled her.
But when forensic experts conducted an autopsy on Mary Sullivan’s body Saturday, they found no signs of trauma to her head, and her hyoid bone — a fragile neck bone typically snapped during strangulation — unbroken.
The families of Sullivan and DeSalvo hope these findings will help exonerate DeSalvo — 36 years after the murder was committed, and 27 years after his death."
Realtor in attendance that morning, ES, was present, asked the buyer-clients with their realtor who she was accompanying, to leave, discussed with household staff to go have a look, what they saw, etc., then ES calls her contact who happens to be MS.. MS tells her to call 911. ... but that didn't happen - what DID they do instead? It wasn't ES who called JS, it was MS.. MS was not present at the house, apparently she was in FL making her own phonecalls (to JS and the other adult children), nothing to do with what was physically taking place at the Sherman house. The only people at the Sherman house by the time phonecalls started being made were ES, and two household staff.. so what was ES doing for 90 minutes? Not calling JS. Not calling 911. But what????
The first ME was undecided - he did not have enough information to make a definitive ruling - police were therefore considering all 3 options of M/M, M/S, and S/S. Nowhere is it said that it is rare for a hyoid bone to remain intact after strangulation. The reason Chiasson had written that paper two decades ago, was because there seemed to be a general impression that 'if it is broken, then this, and if it is not broken, then that' - which he (and the ME's boss, Michael Pollanen) had wanted to debunk. It seems there are many factors to be considered all together, and not just one. From dotr's link above:
Barbara Sampson, New York City's chief medical examiner who is handling Epstein's autopsy, said that the discovery of the broken hyoid doesn't determine anything. The cause of the financier's death is still pending.
“In all forensic investigations, all information must be synthesized to determine the cause and manner of death," Sampson said in a statement to USA TODAY. "Everything must be consistent; no single finding can be evaluated in a vacuum.”
To me, the hyoid bone being intact proves nothing, since it would likely remain intact whether it was suicide by leaning forward (even though it would be impossible for the Shermans to have leaned forward in the position they were found in), or whether it was murder by strangulation (especially with a softer type of product such as a belt apparently). I think Chiasson was merely trying to comprehend how the original ME could possibly have even considered suicide as an option - and he was guessing. There may be additional info which police have, which led them to believe it was M/S (such as perhaps a phony note left, which we don't know about (yet)? Could be anything!). It wasn't until some 6 weeks later that LE was able to confirm it was M/M. Either they found something, or got some kind of test results back, which led them to that conclusion. imo.
casesensitive
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Quote Deugirtni: " There may be additional info which police have, which led them to believe it was M/S (such as perhaps a phony note left, which we don't know about (yet)?"
I always wondered about a suicide note being a blatant piece of evidence for M/S, but apparently none was found in the beginning of the investigation, per KD. I suspect that if one was found later, that information may have been leaked to him by his police sources. (jmo) He would also include this info in his book as another reason why LE thought it was a M/S. I'm assuming he didn't do that, but I haven't read the book.
Toronto Sun Dec. 17, 2017
"Bott said homicide detectives will conduct a full investigation and all avenues will be explored.
That said, police did not immediately find a suicide note and a search of the massive house, which will include reviewing of the home’s video surveillance system, was just beginning."
https://torontosun.com/news/local-n...naire-couple-found-dead-in-north-york-mansion
I always wondered about a suicide note being a blatant piece of evidence for M/S, but apparently none was found in the beginning of the investigation, per KD. I suspect that if one was found later, that information may have been leaked to him by his police sources. (jmo) He would also include this info in his book as another reason why LE thought it was a M/S. I'm assuming he didn't do that, but I haven't read the book.
Toronto Sun Dec. 17, 2017
"Bott said homicide detectives will conduct a full investigation and all avenues will be explored.
That said, police did not immediately find a suicide note and a search of the massive house, which will include reviewing of the home’s video surveillance system, was just beginning."
https://torontosun.com/news/local-n...naire-couple-found-dead-in-north-york-mansion
Trying this on for size, speculation, for now. imo.
If indeed the Shermans were restrained in order to force one or both, to sign something or even use the phone to transfer money, call somebody, ect. whatever- maybe that might explain the weirdness of the "tableau" as actually being one of necessity as opposed to an element of staging?
Could that explain why they were initially bound together, each by one wrist only, then whatever mystery restraint was used (the exercise wrist straps?) were then removed to obscure the real reason (forced forgery?) they were used, in the first place?!
Wondering if BS was right-handed and if so, was his left hand temporarily bound to HS?
ETA
Assuming both are right-handed because watches are on the left hand and shovels are held in right hands too, wondering which wrists were temporarily restrained? imo, speculation.
Daughter of Honey and Barry Sherman continues their legacy by supporting world gathering of Holocaust survivors | The Star
The Canadian Jewish News
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I believe that when Donovan said their hands had been bound together, he did not mean Barry and Honey together, I believe he meant they each had their two own hands bound together, but they're not sure if in front or back. jmo though.
Surely there are *some* things from that investigation which only a select handful of police know about, and presumably would not be shared. Donovan digs around all he can, but he can't know what he doesn't know. That *could* potentially be one of them. It would sure explain a lot. Until perhaps they got proof to believe it hadn't been written by BS afterall, or something?
So Lexi that suggests that being suspended from the railing (ie your seat being off the ground) with a belt tied to the railing would be virtually impossible for anyone over about 5'8'. Barry was certainly taller than that.
It has bothered me for a long time. There could have been a chance that they were still alive- AFAIK those people that were there aren't medical doctors- why wait?
Possibly. But the problem with strangling them while they were attached to the railing is that you would have to stand in front of them to strangle them, as there was little/no room to walk/stand behind the railing to strangle them from behind. I don't know how easy it is to strangle someone from the front, in movies it seems to be always done from behind.
I don't think we know that, it has always been open to question as to whether they were tied to each other at one point or not.
Re post of article with good questions and interesting answers, imo. snippets..
Oct 30 2019
by Anne Kingston
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
"Q: Your book reveals that Toronto police weren’t contacted for almost 90 minutes after the Shermans’ bodies were found next to their indoor swimming pool. Is that kind of delay unusual in your experience?
A: It’s very unusual, and I was fixated on it for some time. As far as I can tell, the bodies are discovered, some phone calls were made and the people who made the phone calls don’t want to describe to me why they did what they did. The police are adamant they got their call at 11:44 a.m. All of my research indicates the bodies were found at 10:10 a.m."
"Q: In your book, you write about the damage to Honey’s face which suggested the killings had a personal component—that the killer or killers felt differently towards husband and wife. Why was that worth mentioning?
A: I had no access to the police investigation so I’m looking for the clues. And that says to me that the person may have liked Barry more than Honey. But it could also mean that a person attacked Honey and then strangled Barry.
Q: Your book is also a fascinating portrait of wealth—and family dysfunction. You write that Barry Sherman gave his children millions but kept his wife on a tight financial leash—she had access to cash for trips and shopping, but controlled no money of her own. You also report that just before their deaths, Honey told friends her husband was contemplating giving her a big financial gift; her sister, Mary, was also telling people that Honey was giving her a lot of money. Why was this relevant?
A: Honey was given money for her needs but not her desires. If she wanted to put in a very expensive marble floor in their Florida condo, she could do that. Barry wasn’t interested in spending money—he liked to give it away—and felt his wife should be the same way. In the final year of her life, both Honey and Barry told friends she was going to come into between $100 million and $500 million. Then it became known that some of this might go to her beloved sister, Mary. Honey and Mary were very close; they might be the closest relationship in the Sherman family. Honey was tough on her children—she wanted them to have jobs and pay bills. Barry was closer to them; he’d just give them money. From quite good sources, it was not unusual for the two older children to receive $100s of million and the younger two children to receive in the low millions. It was a very dysfunctional situation with money and the Sherman family".
"Q: You also write that you don’t think the killer or killers were professionals. One reason is the use of belts—one was taken from an upstairs bedroom. Organized criminals don’t look for their murder weapons at the scene.
A: I’ve not seen crime scene photos. But I was told belts were used. Barry was wearing a belt that morning, one Honey bought him at Canadian Tire. The other belt was from their bedroom, or my supposition is that was where the other belt was. I don’t think a foreign object was brought into the house to do the killing. Why the pool? Because it’s out of the way, because the tile floor can be cleaned up easier."
Oct 30 2019
by Anne Kingston
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
"Q: Your book reveals that Toronto police weren’t contacted for almost 90 minutes after the Shermans’ bodies were found next to their indoor swimming pool. Is that kind of delay unusual in your experience?
A: It’s very unusual, and I was fixated on it for some time. As far as I can tell, the bodies are discovered, some phone calls were made and the people who made the phone calls don’t want to describe to me why they did what they did. The police are adamant they got their call at 11:44 a.m. All of my research indicates the bodies were found at 10:10 a.m."
"Q: In your book, you write about the damage to Honey’s face which suggested the killings had a personal component—that the killer or killers felt differently towards husband and wife. Why was that worth mentioning?
A: I had no access to the police investigation so I’m looking for the clues. And that says to me that the person may have liked Barry more than Honey. But it could also mean that a person attacked Honey and then strangled Barry.
Q: Your book is also a fascinating portrait of wealth—and family dysfunction. You write that Barry Sherman gave his children millions but kept his wife on a tight financial leash—she had access to cash for trips and shopping, but controlled no money of her own. You also report that just before their deaths, Honey told friends her husband was contemplating giving her a big financial gift; her sister, Mary, was also telling people that Honey was giving her a lot of money. Why was this relevant?
A: Honey was given money for her needs but not her desires. If she wanted to put in a very expensive marble floor in their Florida condo, she could do that. Barry wasn’t interested in spending money—he liked to give it away—and felt his wife should be the same way. In the final year of her life, both Honey and Barry told friends she was going to come into between $100 million and $500 million. Then it became known that some of this might go to her beloved sister, Mary. Honey and Mary were very close; they might be the closest relationship in the Sherman family. Honey was tough on her children—she wanted them to have jobs and pay bills. Barry was closer to them; he’d just give them money. From quite good sources, it was not unusual for the two older children to receive $100s of million and the younger two children to receive in the low millions. It was a very dysfunctional situation with money and the Sherman family".
"Q: You also write that you don’t think the killer or killers were professionals. One reason is the use of belts—one was taken from an upstairs bedroom. Organized criminals don’t look for their murder weapons at the scene.
A: I’ve not seen crime scene photos. But I was told belts were used. Barry was wearing a belt that morning, one Honey bought him at Canadian Tire. The other belt was from their bedroom, or my supposition is that was where the other belt was. I don’t think a foreign object was brought into the house to do the killing. Why the pool? Because it’s out of the way, because the tile floor can be cleaned up easier."
I think KD is wrong on this matter, and I believe someone he interviewed with respect to this item is either mistaken or lying.
I do not believe MS instructed ES to call 911. I believe she instructed ES to wait until MS contacted some relatives, or other parties. We know that MS evidently called JS, and also Barry's office. I'm sure there were other calls.
In the end, IIRC it wasn't even ES who called police, it was one of the staff members in the house. I believe it got to the point in that house where the staff members were probably scared and frantic and insisting on calling police, and ES was trying to get them to hold off, waiting until she received further instructions from MS. Speculation on my part, but it's the only thing IMO that explains why they didn't call 911 right away.
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Lexiintoronto
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Yes, my guess is that he was at least 6’ tall and HS was maybe 5’4”-5’6”.
Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca
If you google photos online, when they’re photographed seated, Barry seems only slightly taller. (He’s slouching a bit here, I think.)
[URL="https://jewishtoronto.com/news-media/what-we-do/honey-sherman-zl-honored-at-ujas-13th-annual-volunteer-awards-night"]Honey Sherman z"l honored at UJA's 13th Annual Volunteer Awards Night | UJA Federation of Greater Toronto[/URL]
Donovan describes the 3-foot railing as being above their heads.
Unless they were leaning forwards or backwards to some degree, I don’t see the railing being high enough to suspend them-especially BS.
So, I think that railing was chosen in part because the killers could leverage the belts using the railing—less strength required to strangle them.
(Bu dotr’s suggestion that they were restrained there while alive and another ligature was used to kill them makes more sense.)
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Lexiintoronto
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I think you may be right about MS.
However, I think at least one of the S children had to also have been involved in the 90-minute delay.
Lexiintoronto
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I think a different ligature could have been used from behind, as dotr suggested. The belts were used first to restrain them while alive and kept them in position after death.
Maybe the killers went there armed with a gun and zips ties or something similar?
I suppose so, except that when I envision this scenario, in my mind it would mean the wrist markings would be on opposite sides of B's and H's wrists. ie the fronts of B's wrists and the undersides of H's wrists, or vice versa.... unless one or the other's arms were twisted.. so in my mind, it doesn't make sense the two people were tied together that way. jmo.
Missed this bit in my earlier post, both news reports and the others that suggest the S's were bound together, seem to stem from KD's sources, other news reports just state that they had wrists bound...rbbm.imo.
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
"A: I can’t speak for Toronto police. But, as I understand it, the coats were pulled down but not enough to immobilize them. There’s also the detail about marks found on their wrists indicative of them being bound together; but those ties are removed and cannot be found."
Toronto Billionaires Were Likely Murdered by Contract Killers: Report
"The paper also reported that the Shermans’ were likely tied together by their wrists at some point and that there was no sign of drugs in their bodies that could explain their deaths."
Barry and Honey Sherman’s deaths investigated by private experts as ‘contract killing’: report
“There is evidence there were markings on the wrist as if each of their hands were bound together … but there were no ties or ropes found at the scene.”
Canadian billionaires were 'murdered', say private detectives
Hired investigators reportedly find markings on Barry and Honey Sherman's wrists indicating their hands had been tied up.
Lexi noted that *if* the railing was 3' exactly, her height at 5'8" was almost exactly three feet from her seat to the *top* of her head. But if B&H had belts around their necks, suspended by that railing, we can stop measuring their height at the height of their necks, as opposed to the tops of their heads? I'm not sure how many inches long an average sized head would be, plus I'm assuming the bodies were not sitting bolt upright either. As well, some people are longer in the torso, while others have a shorter torso and longer legs. Their 'seats' weren't actually 'seated' on the pool room floor, but slightly suspended, according to reports. Was the railing exactly 36" or could it have been 38"? How tall was BS? If six feet tall, that is four inches taller than Lexi, but heads usually measure more than that four inch difference. I think that sometimes us sleuthers put too much weight/value on particular words, ie maybe the railing appeared to be 'above' the bodies, but without taking into consideration the 'slump factor', nor the deduction for height minus head, etc. I can see how they each could've been strangled and then the belts and railing used as a 'pulley' like Lesi has suggested, purely for 'staging' effects though. (But the 'why' would sure be interesting to know!?)
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