Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

[dotr]

Thinking the perp or his/her master/mistress, received or had the medical knowledge to know that strangulation coupled with subsequent hanging, would complicate initial LE investigation and autopsies.
rbbm. imo, speculation.
WARNING GRAPHIC PICS AT BOTTOM OF LINK.
http://medind.nic.in/jbc/t13/i2/jbct13i2p93.pdf
"Death due to constriction of neck may broadly result due to hanging, strangulation with ligature material or manual strangulation i.e. throttling. Sometimes due to external postmortem appearance of the ligature marks on neck, it becomes difficult for the autopsy surgeon to clearly state whether the constriction of neck is homicidal or suicidal in nature."

"Hanging in its face value goes in favour of being suicidal in nature. In manual strangulation or throttling, a form of violent asphyxiation, the neck is compressed with fingers. The upper part of the neck is mostly affected and the pressure is exerted there against the mandible. The neck may be compressed from the front, back or from any side and one or both hands may be used. Throttling for all practical purposes is always homicidal. In postmortem hanging, often a victim is killed by some other means and then hanged to simulate a suicidal death but there will be evidence of dragging of the body on the ground and friction at the point of suspension of the ligature material, as the ligature is first tied around the neck of the dead body and then the body is hanged but the actual cause of death and other circumstantial evidence will make the fact (post mortem hanging) clear. [1] Deaths resulting from asphyxia consequent upon manual strangulation raise the suspicion of homicide."

"Conclusion In cases of death due to violent asphyxia, whether it was a suicidal death from hanging or homicidal killing from ligature or manual strangulation, sometimes there are fabricated or supposed allegations by the relatives of the deceased or, the investigating agencies register criminal case under pressure or on mere statement without prior investigation or, due to atypical nature and appearance of the ligature marks on the dead body, the autopsy surgeon is not in a state to clearly give opinion on postmortem examination. Under such situations, the autopsy surgeons need not act in haste and must give ample time to the investigating agencies for complete and thorough investigation of the case and then only a final opinion should be given about the nature, mode and cause of death".

 

[ldlager]

Regarding possible suspects. If I am correct that the actual killers were from a foreign land, hired by the perpetrator, I think considering the following might be useful. List the people in each category and compare.

Who were the people who?

1. Had past interaction with Apotex/Shermans.

2. Had dispute with Apotex/Shermans, most likely recorded in the courts.

3. Had substantial funds to pay for the operation.

4. Possibly had either business or banking operations in a country with easy money transfer rules and lax banking regulations.

5. Possibly had history with foreign governments, espionage, police or military assets.

6. Possibly expressed publicly, displeasure with Apotex/Shermans.

Again I could be way off on my theory of hired foreign killers, but if not, this elimination process would likely produce some suspects.

Unless the TPS have a better theory, I would think they have been doing something similar in looking for suspects.

Good list, thank you. To that, I would add "has a twisted enough psyche to (or is sick enough to) arrange to have someone murdered

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Regarding possible suspects. If I am correct that the actual killers were from a foreign land, hired by the perpetrator, I think considering the following might be useful. List the people in each category and compare.

Who were the people who?

1. Had past interaction with Apotex/Shermans.

2. Had dispute with Apotex/Shermans, most likely recorded in the courts.

3. Had substantial funds to pay for the operation.

4. Possibly had either business or banking operations in a country with easy money transfer rules and lax banking regulations.

5. Possibly had history with foreign governments, espionage, police or military assets.

6. Possibly expressed publicly, displeasure with Apotex/Shermans.

Again I could be way off on my theory of hired foreign killers, but if not, this elimination process would likely produce some suspects.

Unless the TPS have a better theory, I would think they have been doing something similar in looking for suspects.

I think we’re going to need to create a Venn diagram for all of the possible suspects.

 

[WINDSOR]

I think we’re going to need to create a Venn diagram for all of the possible suspects.

A Venn diagram was exactly what I had in mind when I started the list, thanks

Good list, thank you. To that, I would add "has a twisted enough psyche to (or is sick enough to) arrange to have someone murdered

Unfortunately often a twisted psyche is not apparent on the surface. Who knew Bill Cosby was drugging women, for example.

 

[dotr]

Revisiting the possibility of "multiple killers" and wondering just how many killers could that be, and what evidence would suggest more than one killer?
Could it be an organized" killing crew" so to speak, one or 2 people commit the actual murders and the others each perform a specific task such as watching the house, video recording and post murder cleaning up, ect??
imo, speculation.
Murdered Billionaire Couple 'May Have Had Many Assailants'
January 22, 2018
"Private investigators in Canada believe that a prominent billionaire couple found dead in their Toronto mansion last month were murdered by multiple assailants, pouring cold water on the theory that their deaths were a result of a murder-suicide."

"Besides finding evidence to suggest multiple murderers killed the couple, the investigators reportedly believe that Honey was engaged in a violent struggle before her death, reports CBC. Investigators also claim the couple had been bound together for a time, and that they were killed on Dec. 13, two days before their bodies were first discovered."

 

[WINDSOR]

Revisiting the possibility of "multiple killers" and wondering just how many killers could that be, and what evidence would suggest more than one killer?
Could it be an organized" killing crew" so to speak, one or 2 people commit the actual murders and the others each perform a specific task such as watching the house, video recording and post murder cleaning up, ect??
imo, speculation.
Murdered Billionaire Couple 'May Have Had Many Assailants'
January 22, 2018
"Private investigators in Canada believe that a prominent billionaire couple found dead in their Toronto mansion last month were murdered by multiple assailants, pouring cold water on the theory that their deaths were a result of a murder-suicide."

"Besides finding evidence to suggest multiple murderers killed the couple, the investigators reportedly believe that Honey was engaged in a violent struggle before her death, reports CBC. Investigators also claim the couple had been bound together for a time, and that they were killed on Dec. 13, two days before their bodies were first discovered."

I for one believe that there were several killers present at the Shermans home, likely a minimum of three.
I base this on the fact that most intelligence agency type hits usually involve a team. Secondly, because a complex staging, it implies that the victims had to be restained and moved. A difficult (but not impossible) challenge for one individual. Third I believe there had to be someone acting as a lookout/security system specialist, to allow the others to do their jobs. Quite possibly there were one or two others outside the home in the neighbourhood, monitoring and providing backup and secondary escape opportunities as required.

One thing that does befuddle me is how three men, would be able to leave the Sherman home without being caught on video from the neighbourhood homes. The only thing I can think of is a) the police have some video and have not reported that info to the public. b) The killers, put on disguises that makes identification difficult or impossible. Imagine if one was dressed as a postman carrying a satchel bag, another as a woman pushing a stroller, and a third as a meter reader. Leaving at different times from the Sherman home, they could have easily carried items with themselves they did not want to leave in the house, would not have aroused any suspicion in the area, and would be very difficult to identify by any witnesses. The lookout(s) on the street watching the house, would signal to those inside when it was clear to leave the house.

 

[human]

Disguise would make it almost impossible to identify but I would hope there would be cameras all over that would identify where they parked? Then follow that car along streets?

If that is the case, the hours to watch video. Wow!

 

[dotr]

Unfortunately i cannot read the whole article, had hoped to glean info. about countries with the inclination to send a team of assassins to murder someone in another country. For now, fwiw..
States are finding new ways of killing enemies abroad
Mar 15th 2018
"AS EUROPEANS know to their lamentable cost, assassinations can start wars, even world wars. A bullet fired by a Serbian nationalist, killing Austria’s archduke in June 1914, sparked the calamitous first world war which arguably paved the way to the second. Earlier assassinations may have drastically altered the course of history, too. The bomb thrown in 1881 at Tsar Alexander II, who had emancipated the serfs, woefully stymied reform in Russia.

More recently, the murder in 1961 of Patrice Lumumba, the Congolese prime minister, often blamed on the CIA, helped set that country on its path to mayhem. The killing in 1994 of Rwanda’s president, Juvénal Habyarimana, set off Africa’s worst genocide. The murder of Israel’s prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, by a Jewish fanatic the following year dimmed the prospect of peace between Israelis and Palestinians. The assassination in 2007 of Benazir Bhutto, when she was bidding to become Pakistan’s prime minister, stalled her country’s efforts to build democracy."
Four Ways to Prevent an Assassination - Gavin de Becker and Associates
"Red Zones. The immediate area where surveillance/assassination teams are likely located (red zones) when observing their target.Lesson:Trained protectors conduct routine Surveillance Detection, particularly in the time preceding a protectee’s movement. By conducting surveillance detection, the protector in Ukraine could have detected suspicious activity and decided on an alternate exit. (Unknown if protector conducted SD.)

1. Theory of Controlled Spaces. The protectee departed the television studio (a controlled space) for the sidewalk (an uncontrolled space). Because the sidewalk is a more observable space for surveillance teams and assassins, it became a more vulnerable space for the protectee.
   • Lesson: Reduce the distance between the vehicle and the building’s exit point. Less distance walked between the building’s exit and awaiting vehicle = less time the protectee is observable to surveillance teams or vulnerable to assassination.

• • • Though Controlled Spaces are by no means impregnable, inside these spaces offers greater cover and concealment than outside them (i.e. a sidewalk.) The John Lennon assassination and Regan/Ford assassination attempts are good historic examples. Per Gavin de Becker’s book, Just 2 Seconds, 64% of assassination attempts occur in/around a car.

1. Public Arrival, Private Departure. Private arrivals are not always an option for protectees making a scheduled public appearance. Private departures, however, should always be the preferred option. Due to the cover, concealment, and physical security measures often afforded to a private departure, protectors can better safeguard their protectees. (Unknown if a private departure was possible in the Kiev attack.)
   • Lesson. If possible, always consider multiple exits for scheduled and unscheduled departures. To gain access to multiple entry and exit points, conduct a thorough Advance and coordinate with onsite security to gain full access to the building and property.

1. ACE(Access – Concealment — Escape). As described in Just 2 Seconds, the assassin(s) in Kiev held the ACE. Through the assassin(s)’ own concealment, the protector and protectee were unaware of any suspicious behavior that often precedes an attack. Moreover, following the attack the assassin(s) escaped."
2. Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations – review

 

[human]

Why would they be assassinated?

 

[dotr]

Why would they be assassinated?

A couple of billion dollar question with a $10 million dollar answer.
Analysis of evidence in the “targeted” killings of Barry & Honey Sherman concludes murders were politically motivated, who the prime suspects are & why. | PRESS Core
March 31st, 2019
"What was the primary motive for the break in & targeted murders of Barry & Honey Sherman? To answer that one must first examine why lead Toronto police investigator, Det.-Sgt. Susan Gomes publicly stated that Barry and Honey Sherman were targeted and killed? “I believe they were targeted,” The word “targeted” was specifically chosen to describe Toronto’s 2017 homicides #64 and #65. What was Det.-Sgt. Susan Gomes revealing to the public by calling the double homicides “targeted” killing?

Targeted killing is defined as an assassination by a “government authority” of an individual(s) for a perceived threat. That’s what Toronto Police were telling Canadians when they said Barry & Honey Sherman were “targeted” & killed. Toronto Police stated publicly from the very beginning that “there was no sign of forced entry into their home”. That is referred to as surreptitious entry. Toronto Police publicly stating that the murderers entered the home of Barry and Honey Sherman via surreptitious entry is of major significance. It supports the discovery finding that the Shermans were targeted and killed by a “government authority”."

 

[human]

To me targeted says it was not random. They were killed vy someone on purpose.

That could be any number of reasons. I do not see that term as one that implies “govt”.

No forced entry means to me that either they had a key or were let in by the Shermans.

Forced entry is a broken door, window, or some other sign that they were not welcomed into the home

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Purdue Pharma offers $10-12B to settle 2,000+ opioid lawsuits

Did we talk about S-ackler some time ago?

 

[dotr]

Nice photo, reminded of the earring found outside the house, imo.
S pasom okrog vratu sta bila privezana za ograjo bazena - Moskisvet.com

FOTO: Profimedia
WARMINGTON: Barry Sherman’s ex-biz partner knew ‘from day one’ couple was murdered
January 27, 2018
“I believe the pieces of s— who did this were already in the house and I believe they killed Honey in front of Barry,” he said. “What a terrible ending for some truly great people.”

He also believes there were at least two people involved. With a belief there may have been marks on Honey Sherman’s face, or head and that Barry had so many personal and business enemies, there is no shortage of directions police can go.

Why would someone want to do this to these people?

Why by either choking or hanging?"
"Could an earring found at the end of the driveway outside the Sherman mansion murder scene Saturday be a clue to help police catch the killers?"

Toronto Police Det. Martin Woodhouse seizes two earrings at the end of the Sherman driveway on Jan. 27, 2018. Ross McLean.

 

[dotr]

Purdue Pharma offers $10-12B to settle 2,000+ opioid lawsuits

Did we talk about S-ackler some time ago?

Yes, some discussion here..
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11
Also referenced along with the Shermans on this unrelated thread..
CA - Rebecca Zahau Wrongful Death Revisited 2019

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

A couple of billion dollar question with a $10 million dollar answer.
Analysis of evidence in the “targeted” killings of Barry & Honey Sherman concludes murders were politically motivated, who the prime suspects are & why. | PRESS Core
March 31st, 2019
"What was the primary motive for the break in & targeted murders of Barry & Honey Sherman? To answer that one must first examine why lead Toronto police investigator, Det.-Sgt. Susan Gomes publicly stated that Barry and Honey Sherman were targeted and killed? “I believe they were targeted,” The word “targeted” was specifically chosen to describe Toronto’s 2017 homicides #64 and #65. What was Det.-Sgt. Susan Gomes revealing to the public by calling the double homicides “targeted” killing?

Targeted killing is defined as an assassination by a “government authority” of an individual(s) for a perceived threat. That’s what Toronto Police were telling Canadians when they said Barry & Honey Sherman were “targeted” & killed. Toronto Police stated publicly from the very beginning that “there was no sign of forced entry into their home”. That is referred to as surreptitious entry. Toronto Police publicly stating that the murderers entered the home of Barry and Honey Sherman via surreptitious entry is of major significance. It supports the discovery finding that the Shermans were targeted and killed by a “government authority”."

@dotr, I was really intrigued to read the link you provided but I'm getting an error that "this site cannot be reached". Is it just a me problem?

 

[dotr]

d

 

[rickcross]

You make a valid point that the staging could be a representation of an execution.

The manner of the staging is the essential mystery of this case. But there is no support for your claim that bodies are regularly displayed like this in other cultures. Nothing you have cited backs that up.

I also think the idea that the Shermans were strung up next to a pool because that was the “most suitable” place, as rickcross maintains, is ridiculous.

There were multiple reports that Honey was killed elsewhere and moved to the basement. Her face was bloodied. Barry was a smart guy. He would know that no one would think she hanged herself.

So what was the point of hanging Honey? Why does rickcross think Barry would do such a thing? What was his goal in dragging her body to the pool as opposed to leaving it where it was and killing himself? What was the point of having the two bodies hanging side by side with the coats/jackets positioned as they were?

Whether double murder or murder suicide, This wasn’t simply a “practical” decision. The staging is unnecessary either way. It happened for another reason.

Since you directed this at me, I'll answer. Let us just suppose that in a fit of rage, Barry killed Honey. If he were to simply hang himself, the truth would be known, that he was a murderer. So at that point, what viable options did he have? He could spend the rest of his life in jail, or he could take the easy way out. What exactly he may have been thinking, I don't know. Was he trying to stage a double suicide, or was he trying to stage a double murder? I believe all the evidence we have heard leaves little doubt that Honey was murdered, then hung by the pool. There is very little known about Barry though. There are some hints out there however that give pause for thought. For instance, Barry was found sitting up straight, legs in front, glasses in place. Honey is found slumped over and bleeding. Id suggest that it is possible that Barry might have had difficulty lifting the already dead Honey and securing the belt. He was able to tie his belt much tighter as he may have been a willing participant. There is no struggle with Barry. His feet in front, almost as if he just closed his eyes and accepted death.

I'm not going to sit here and proclaim it to be a murder suicide, but I find it very suspicious that TPS seemed to stick to that theory for quite some time. I also find it suspicious that some officers were very surprised by the change in direction.

Lastly, TPS were in a very vulnerable situation when all this happened. They screwed up the Laura Babcock situation. The screwed up the Wayne Millard investigation. They were under fire for their mishandling of the missing men in the gay village and had been receiving non stop bad press about it. Now you have a billionaires family, and you know damned well that they are not going to accept a murder/suicide determination. They had already hired a very esteemed investigation team, and they had already proven that they were more than willing to use the press to get their agenda across. Then you have they mayor of Toronto paying a personal visit to the police chief to discuss the case. Were there also calls from the premier or the prime minister? Who knows?

People are more than willing to cry "conspiracy theory", and I get that. But is it so far fetched when you look at what people in power have done recently? Kathleen Wyne flushes billions of dollars down the toilet, deleted emails, and destroyed hard drives, simply to win two extra seats in a close election. And Justin Trudeau breaking every ethics guideline in the book with the SNC Lavalin affair? Would anybody have believed that if Jody Wilson-Raybould hadn't recorded the entire thing? So excuse me If I don't think that Chief Saunders might have swept this case under the rug if someone like Justin Trudeau asked him to.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

@dotr, I was really intrigued to read the link you provided but I'm getting an error that "this site cannot be reached". Is it just a me problem?

The link worked for me. OMG, is that true and is the author tired of life?

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

The link worked for me. OMG, is that true and is the author tired of life?

Poster was kind enough to PM me the text of the article. I really take issue with the statement that the RCMP are the ONLY ones that could have done this, JMO.

 

[rickcross]

Why would they be assassinated?

Exactly. Barry had given up control of Apotex years ago. They were essentially a retired old couple with money. Looking at it logically you would look at who would actually benefit from the Shermans deaths. Obviously the children will benefit, but who else? Apotex continues on, business as usual. All the lawsuits continue. So who gains anything? Nobody, that's who.