Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[Tighthead]

You stated above: Obviously it had to be established that no will was located to obtain the order. But yet he made the same request for same order for BS, even though we know BS had a will. Therefore, your statement cannot be true.

I stated earlier that imo, he was very noncommittal in what he stated as far as H having or not having a will. As I posted above, he is quoted as saying:

"We don't know who the beneficiaries are, if there is a will," Sherman estate lawyer Timothy Youdan told the court hearing. "We don't know if there is no will." To proceed with the administration of the couple's estate after the deaths, Youdan filed a document asking for the "appointment of estate trustee without a will in the estate of Honey Sherman." He also filed an affidavit from a person described as "AB" stating that should the identity of the trustees and beneficiaries get out, they could be in danger of "violence and kidnapping." Even though Barry apparently did have a will, Youdan filed a document in court requesting the "appointment of estate trustee without a will in the estate of Barry Sherman." Why this was done is part of the sealing order the Star is challenging.

He advised the court there was no will located for Honey, and was unsure as to whether it was missing or didn’t exist.

He advised the court that Barry had a will. That is clear.

Clearly those are distinct circumstances, and the orders were obtained by submissions specific to those distinct facts. He was unequivocal that at the time of the hearing no will for Honey had been located.

 

[deugirtni]

He advised the court there was no will located for Honey, and was unsure as to whether it was missing or didn’t exist.

He advised the court that Barry had a will. That is clear.

Clearly those are distinct circumstances, and the orders were obtained by submissions specific to those distinct facts. He was unequivocal that at the time of the hearing no will for Honey had been located.

link?

 

[Tighthead]

link?

Already peovid d.

 

[deugirtni]

Already peovid d.

Sorry, I must have missed it, can you relink? TIA

 

[MistyWaters]

You stated above: Obviously it had to be established that no will was located to obtain the order. But yet he made the same request for same order for BS, even though we know BS had a will. Therefore, your statement cannot be true.

I stated earlier that imo, he was very noncommittal in what he stated as far as H having or not having a will. As I posted above, he is quoted as saying:

"We don't know who the beneficiaries are, if there is a will," Sherman estate lawyer Timothy Youdan told the court hearing. "We don't know if there is no will." To proceed with the administration of the couple's estate after the deaths, Youdan filed a document asking for the "appointment of estate trustee without a will in the estate of Honey Sherman." He also filed an affidavit from a person described as "AB" stating that should the identity of the trustees and beneficiaries get out, they could be in danger of "violence and kidnapping." Even though Barry apparently did have a will, Youdan filed a document in court requesting the "appointment of estate trustee without a will in the estate of Barry Sherman." Why this was done is part of the sealing order the Star is challenging.

Quoted from your post “We don't know if there is no will." - agree, extremely uncommittal and leaves a huge opening for Wills to be produced later, after the Judge had agreed to seal the estate business.

 

[Tighthead]

Quoted from your post “We don't know if there is no will." - agree, extremely uncommittal and leaves a huge opening for Wills to be produced later, after the Judge had agreed to seal the estate business.

Yes, but you said it was a sideshow.

So is it your position that he was lying?

The sealing of the file wouldn’t change had a will been produced. That wasn’t the basis for sealing.

Is it your position that the lawyer misled the court on purpose?

Once again, in your earlier supposition who would have been instructing the “estate attorney” you referenced?

It’s not at all noncommittal in terms of the fact that a will wasn’t located. In fact, when you can’t locate a will, you don’t generally know if it is missing or destroyed so this is the expected answer.

 

[Number8]

In response to one of the press questions (which were hard to hear), Idsinga seemed very clear in saying that, while the murders were targeted, this was not a "hit". Make of that what you will.

What if the private team has been disbanded so that Greenspan can resume his more usual role as a defence lawyer? (Just wild speculation.)

He didn't say that this was not a hit. He fielded a question asking if it was a hit and he hesitated, then said "I'm not going down that road." He then later stated that it was definitely a "targeted murder", whatever that means.

 

[Tighthead]

Sorry, I must have missed it, can you relink? TIA

It’s the article from Donovan I linked.

 

[MistyWaters]

I couldn’t help but notice the addition of this one word in what’s an otherwise common plea from police -

“The family and the police urge anyone who has reliable information regarding the murders, no matter how small or unimportant that information may seem, to please contact the police,” Idsinga said.”
Private investigation into murders of Barry and Honey Sherman closed, police appeal for more tips

 

[Sphinx]

Who said Greenspan closed down the PI team?

Press Conference, may have been most significant to give a message to perpetrators (s) of the murders.
1) The TPS is still working hard on the case.
2) The Private investigation team has stopped, (implied is they know what happened and so does TPS and there is nothing more for the PI team to do)
3) TPS wants all the tips previously submitted to the private investigators, submitted to TPS directly) This could be important in a trial and for the availability of witnesses and evidence for the prosecution)

One thing that did surprise me though. In open investigations the police sometimes appeal to the perpetrators to turn themselves in. As far as I know this request was not made. Curious to me.


WINDSOR, Dec 16, 2019 at 11:38 AM

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, but you said it was a sideshow.

So is it your position that he was lying?

The sealing of the file wouldn’t change had a will been produced. That wasn’t the basis for sealing.

Is it your position that the lawyer misled the court on purpose?

Once again, in your earlier supposition who would have been instructing the “estate attorney” you referenced?

It’s not at all noncommittal in terms of the fact that a will wasn’t located. In fact, when you can’t locate a will, you don’t generally know if it is missing or destroyed so this is the expected answer.

How is “not knowing” lying? He said what he said and if you read into it that definitively no Will exists, that’s your right. It’s not worth my time debating this topic over and over again because what is certain is we don’t know what exists within the estate files at present.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is a direct quote, Idsinga’s response to media speculation -

“Idsinga offered no new details on the investigation itself. He wouldn’t speculate on motive, method or possible suspects.

“I can’t imagine how disturbing it must be for the family and for loved ones of these victims to continually read about speculation in the media. I understand there’s a job to be done, but it does make it very difficult for them,” he said.

“I’ve said it in other investigations and I’ll say this in this investigation: If you don’t hear it from the primary investigators mouth or the major case manager’s mouth, then you’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt.”
Toronto police: Resubmit Sherman murder tips given to private investigators to us

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...in-barry-and-honey-sherman-case#comments-area

 

[Tighthead]

How is “not knowing” lying? He said what he said and if you read into it that definitively no Will exists, that’s your right. It’s not worth my time debating this topic over and over again because what is certain is we don’t know what exists within the estate files at present.

Just for clarification, in your scenario about another “estate attorney” surfacing with the will, who do you envision being the instructing client?

That has nothing to do with your bit above.

Clearly it’s lying if there is a will and he says it’s unknown. You are the one who said this was all a sideshow and there were never any issues.

 

[Sphinx]

He didn't say that this was not a hit. He fielded a question asking if it was a hit and he hesitated, then said "I'm not going down that road." He then later stated that it was definitely a "targeted murder", whatever that means.

I was impressed with Idsinga. At times he looked to me like " the cat who had swallowed the canary ". He seemed very sure of himself. If I were his prime suspect, I would be seriously worried right now. I think he has most of what he needs for an arrest, and is just going through more evidence to be certain it will hold up in court.

If he hinted that it was not a professional hit, but a targeted murder, he could have been implying that it could be a family member, and for some reason the TPS is, he said in touch with them every day. In my opinion, he was slyly letting a potential suspect know that they are onto them, and it will only be a matter of time. That would be a great deal of pressure if one were guilty. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Just for clarification, in your scenario about another “estate attorney” surfacing with the will, who do you envision being the instructing client?

That has nothing to do with your bit above.

Clearly it’s lying if there is a will and he says it’s unknown. You are the one who said this was all a sideshow and there were never any issues.

Who has reported there was ever any issues, other than one reporter who was not given access to the Estate Files because they are presently sealed?

It’s surely not lying if Wills were initially withheld by another party awaiting for the Judge to agree to seal the Estate Business.

Now even Donovan is reporting Honey had a Will. So she either had a Will, or she didn’t have a Will.
Honey Sherman had a will she updated shortly before billionaire couple slain, confidant reveals | The Star

 

[ldlager]

I think his exact wording was that TPS is in daily contact with 'members' of the Sherman family. This may not include every one of them.

It is not reasonable to assume that the family members don't share information IMO

 

[deugirtni]

Didn’t a lawyer advise the court that Honey’s Will was missing?

Where is Honey Sherman’s will? | The Star

That would likely be disbarment. Pretty strange tactic for an established big law lawyer. Why do you think he would lie to the court and risk his career? How does he benefit from the side show?

He advised the court there was no will located for Honey, and was unsure as to whether it was missing or didn’t exist.

He advised the court that Barry had a will. That is clear.

Clearly those are distinct circumstances, and the orders were obtained by submissions specific to those distinct facts. He was unequivocal that at the time of the hearing no will for Honey had been located.

link?

Already peovid d.

Sorry, I must have missed it, can you relink? TIA

It’s the article from Donovan I linked.

Ok I went back and found it for you and it is linked below, and just so that you know, it is customary that members post links when they are stating something as fact. That said, I'm not seeing anywhere in the article where the estate lawyer states unequivocally that no will for Honey had been located. In fact, to the contrary, the article reads:

(In an email interview this week, Youdan said he was referring in court only “to the facts as known in the public sphere.” He said he was not revealing details about the order of death, the status of wills, or whether or not an individual had a will. He did not elaborate.)
Where is Honey Sherman’s will? | The Star

 

[nuff]

It is not reasonable to assume that the family members don't share information IMO

But there's no reason to assume that all members share all information, IMO.

 

[deugirtni]

It is not reasonable to assume that the family members don't share information IMO

What if information or evidence has come forward that perhaps one of the people closer to the victims might potentially be involved? Police could potentially be communicating with everyone except that person and the other family members may be assisting that part of the investigation? Possible?

 

[deugirtni]

Press Conference, may have been most significant to give a message to perpetrators (s) of the murders.
1) The TPS is still working hard on the case.
2) The Private investigation team has stopped, (implied is they know what happened and so does TPS and there is nothing more for the PI team to do)
3) TPS wants all the tips previously submitted to the private investigators, submitted to TPS directly) This could be important in a trial and for the availability of witnesses and evidence for the prosecution)

One thing that did surprise me though. In open investigations the police sometimes appeal to the perpetrators to turn themselves in. As far as I know this request was not made. Curious to me.


WINDSOR, Dec 16, 2019 at 11:38 AM

Sorry but that is but one person's opinion. My question still stands. I got a rather different impression as to why the PI team was stopped.