Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[Lexiintoronto]

Just watched the video that appears in today's Toronto Star, narrated by KD. I may have missed this in the book, but he refers to the damage to HS' face as "post-mortem", possibly from being dragged down the staircase. Given all the earlier speculation about HS possibly fighting her attacker, or even being hurt in front of her husband, is the fact that the injuries were post-mortem new information? (And wasn't there earlier information about blood found with her body? Post-mortem wounds don't bleed.)

The book differs a bit from his new article:

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't believe there was ever a 'call it murder-suicide" by police, as I've argued before. IMO that was entirely the doing of the intensely impatient and competitive media, who were chomping at the bit to 'call' it something.

Modern policing doesn't jump to conclusions, especially when there is evidence that the scene has been staged.. Plenty of suicides have been staged as murders, plenty of murders have been staged as suicides. The medical examiner makes the 'call', not the police, and often take many months, or over a year, to declare a cause of death when there's any ambiguity. For example, they'll run tox texts, which may take months to come back, and won't declare cause of death until every single test has come back.

EDITED to revise thoughts on who makes the final 'call'.

Very true, often I notice the media misleads the public into thinking police have the ability to know how deaths occurred through examining a crime scene. In reality, it’s the responsibility of the medical examiner/coroner’s office to officially determine the cause and manner of deaths in Canada, who are supported by police investigation. No way would’ve a full and complete autopsy report been signed off on day two when the media began running with m/s.

In this case I thought six weeks was quite expedient to arrive at a double homicide. In other apparent suicides it’s taken as long as a year to medically determine a murder took place, if at all.

I don’t think this was a professional hit at all. I think it was someone naive enough to believe if it looked like double suicide or m/s, that’d be enough to deceive the experts.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

“Two years have passed since the strange murders of Honey and Barry Sherman, but for Toronto Police this is no cold case.

“It’s an open and very active investigation,” Insp. Hank Idsinga, head of Homicide, said of the slayings of the Apotex founder and his famous for charitable fundraising wife.

And not just an open investigation. Or active.

“Very active.” ”

WARMINGTON: Cops' probe into 2017 Sherman murders 'very active'

ETA:

 

[MistyWaters]

This CTV article from yesterday (about KD's report and the sculptures) says that " the male and female figurines can be seen in seated positions, each with its left leg crossed over its right"... From the photo, you can see that the female figurine's leg is indeed kind of propped up on her other knee (but not crossed over in the way the male one's is). I'm just thinking - if the killers wanted to deliberately stage the Shermans bodies to look like the sculptures, would they not have put Honey's legs in that same position? The CTV article says "Unlike the female sculpture, however, Honey Sherman’s legs were positioned in front of her when she was found," which is consistent with what has been reported elsewhere. It seems unlikely that the killers would forget this detail in a deliberate staging...?

Murdered billionaire couple posed like 'creepy' life-sized figurines found in home: report

Note: I'm not sure if the Star article touches on this... The website won't let me read it because I'm not a subscriber . So I apologize if I'm bringing up something that KD touches on there...

Me, I don’t think there’s any direct connection. If posing dead bodies to resemble artwork the Shermans displayed in their various homes for decades was the intention, the perp would have to be seriously mentally ill because otherwise, the act of posing bodies to resemble artwork is absolutely meaningless to the deceased victims or anyone else, for that matter.

JMO the bodies were hung by belts from a rail to indicate voluntarily hanging, aka suicide, the purpose being to disguise their true cause of death. That’s much different than two artistic figure sitting on speakers, legs crossed or not. As for B’s legs crossed, it’s been argued even on these threads that dying by suicide/hanging is painless - although thankfully none of us here can know for certain. But it’s possible the murderer/s thought a relaxed pose gave that impression as well.


“There are similarities and differences in the positioning of the Sherman bodies and the sculptures.

Both are seated, with the male sculpture and Barry Sherman seated on the left of the female sculpture and Honey Sherman, respectively.

In the case of the male sculpture and Barry Sherman, both had one leg crossed over the other. The sculpture’s left leg was crossed over the right. Neither the police nor the family’s private investigation team have publicly said which of Barry’s legs was crossed over the other, but a Sherman private investigation source told the Star a year ago that his right leg was crossed over his left. In the case of the female sculpture and Honey Sherman, the female sculpture had one leg crossed, whereas Honey’s legs were in front of her and uncrossed.

The Shermans’s bodies were found seated on the floor, with their legs in front of them. The sculptures were seated on raised speakers, and had their legs dangling, as if on a chair, which is how they were constructed — the legs were fixed and could not be extended. The female sculpture’s arms were at its side, the same as the way Honey was found. Barry’s arms were by his side, pulled back slightly by the sleeves of his bomber jacket, while the male sculpture had its hands resting on the crossed leg.”
Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement

 

[MistyWaters]

During the Jan/18 press conference, Gomes stated the bodies were found in a “semi-seated” position. But the positioning has subsequently morphed to “seated” in various media reports. Ive never noticed the contradiction clarified.

If it’s true their bodies were in fact leaning back, that may be the reason for the original “semi-seated” reference by TPS.

BBM

“Their bodies were found in what Gomes told news conference was a “semi-seated position.” Belts around their necks were attached to a low railing at one end of their basement swimming pool, holding them upright. Brian Greenspan, one of the lawyers working for the Sherman family, has said publicly that the Shermans were found seated side by side, and that one of Barry’s legs was “crossed over the other.” People who saw the bodies in the pool room that Friday have confirmed this to the Star. One of those people said the bodies were not seated in a 90-degree position but tipped back slightly, with the belts around their necks holding them from falling backward into the pool.”
Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement

 

[Lexiintoronto]

During the Jan/18 press conference, Gomes stated the bodies were found in a “semi-seated” position. But the positioning has subsequently morphed to “seated” in various media reports. Ive never noticed the contradiction clarified.

If it’s true their bodies were in fact leaning back, that may be the reason for the original “semi-seated” reference by TPS.

BBM

“Their bodies were found in what Gomes told news conference was a “semi-seated position.” Belts around their necks were attached to a low railing at one end of their basement swimming pool, holding them upright. Brian Greenspan, one of the lawyers working for the Sherman family, has said publicly that the Shermans were found seated side by side, and that one of Barry’s legs was “crossed over the other.” People who saw the bodies in the pool room that Friday have confirmed this to the Star. One of those people said the bodies were not seated in a 90-degree position but tipped back slightly, with the belts around their necks holding them from falling backward into the pool.”
Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement

My impression is Det. Sgt.Gomes May have meant the medical term for ‘semi-seated’.

“In medicine, Fowler's position is a standard patient position in which the patient is seated in a semi-sitting position (45-60 degrees) and may have knees either bent or straight.”


“semi-Fowler, 30 to 45 degrees”
Fowler's position - Wikipedia

The medical reports likely stated ‘Fowler’s’ or ‘semi-Fowler’s’ as the position of the bodies, and Gomes was trying to put it in layman’s terms. IMO. (‘Seated, reclined’, may have made more sense.)

 

[kiwi50]

I found it interesting to rewatch Jonathan’s eulogy to his parents today.
Knowing what we know now, it appears quite different to me with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[deugirtni]

During the Jan/18 press conference, Gomes stated the bodies were found in a “semi-seated” position. But the positioning has subsequently morphed to “seated” in various media reports. Ive never noticed the contradiction clarified.

If it’s true their bodies were in fact leaning back, that may be the reason for the original “semi-seated” reference by TPS.

BBM

“Their bodies were found in what Gomes told news conference was a “semi-seated position.” Belts around their necks were attached to a low railing at one end of their basement swimming pool, holding them upright. Brian Greenspan, one of the lawyers working for the Sherman family, has said publicly that the Shermans were found seated side by side, and that one of Barry’s legs was “crossed over the other.” People who saw the bodies in the pool room that Friday have confirmed this to the Star. One of those people said the bodies were not seated in a 90-degree position but tipped back slightly, with the belts around their necks holding them from falling backward into the pool.”
Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement

I remember reading (way back) that their butts were not actually seated on/touching the floor, and I thought that was what was meant by semi-seated at the time.

I think there were arguments on the thread (long ago) about how very easy and simple and fast and painless and a great-way-to-die it is, to commit suicide simply by tying a cord to a doorknob, put it around one's neck and leaning forward... ie even from a low height, and not actually suspended-in-the-air type of hanging. Considering the bodies were leaning *back* rather than forward, wouldn't this preclude any possibility of either of the victims committing suicide, which would've required them to lean *forward*?

edited to clarify: /touching

 

[ldlager]

All very good points. Also - why was honey's phone sitting on the vanity face down? If she ran there and was grabbed before she could call 911, one would assume the phone would be found on the ground or strewn somewhere. "sitting on the vanity face down" seems like something you do when you're washing your hands, and not hiding for your life.

I totally agree with you about how bad that first call of murder/suicide was, especially given the placement of the bodies & B's legs. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they did this for strategic reasons - like catching suspects off guard, having people say or do things they wouldn't normally say if they feel the police are watching them? ...but it's more likely just incompetence :/

I'm replaying the video now and I'm wondering if there's also a possibility this had to do with H, rather than B? She was home first, so maybe there was an argument/attack that wasn't meant to happen, and B comes home (unexpectedly) so the attacker has to deal with him too?

Number8, I haven’t ever heard that honeys phone was found on the vanity- can you pls let me know where you heard or read that? I do recall that the housekeeper found the phone ringing on the floor, and so she may have put it on the vanity. But where did you see that info? Thanks

 

[MistyWaters]

I remember reading (way back) that their butts were not actually seated on/touching the floor, and I thought that was what was meant by semi-seated at the time.

I think there were arguments on the thread (long ago) about how very easy and simple and fast and painless and a great-way-to-die it is, to commit suicide simply by tying a cord to a doorknob, put it around one's neck and leaning forward... ie even from a low height, and not actually suspended-in-the-air type of hanging. Considering the bodies were leaning *back* rather than forward, wouldn't this preclude any possibility of either of the victims committing suicide, which would've required them to lean *forward*?

edited to clarify: /touching

Excellent point. Leaning back with a belt around the neck shouldn’t restrict breathing because it would be loosest at the throat area.

 

[ldlager]

Joe Warmington
@joe_warmington

Neighbour says the Sherman house a year or so before the murder had intruders break in by going through the skylight in the roof.

(brief interview of neighbour at link)

Joe Warmington on Twitter

ETA:
More from Warmington with video interviews at link:
Joe Warmington
@joe_warmington
·
2m

Is a link possible between a New York City doctors strange “suicide” that looks more like a murder and the weird slaying of the Shermans that was also staged as a potential suicide - asks a friend of the billionaires? Both tried to help the people of Haiti. Now they are all dead
Joe Warmington on Twitter

Pizza, wings, ice cream cones and basketball-a friend describes the kindness and generosity of Honey and Barry Sherman at the time of the two year anniversary of their mysterious double murder. Heather Gilbert prefers to remember the good times. #shermans
Joe Warmington on Twitter

Warmington says “his sources” tell him there was a break-in at the Sherman’s a year before the murders? What a piece of work he is- the break-in reports were made public several months ago- is his source KD? Lol

 

[human]

Warmington says “his sources” tell him there was a break-in at the Sherman’s a year before the murders? What a piece of work he is- the break-in reports were made public several months ago- is his source KD? Lol

was the perp caught? Did he get anything?

I would think after that they would get a good security system. They certainly can afford it

 

[ldlager]

was the perp caught? Did he get anything?

I would think after that they would get a good security system. They certainly can afford it

One wonders, in a house with no security system, and with owners who evidently were in the habit of leaving doors unlocked, why a robber would go to the trouble and take the risk of climbing onto the roof, breaking into a skylight, and then presumably lowering themselves into the house via a rope. It seems to me that breaking in via a door or window would have been much simpler.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

“Two years post their murders, Gilbert is as suspicious as she was when she and her husband Eddie drove home past the police cars and fire trucks that had taken over her street on Dec. 15, 2017.

“I knew something was very wrong. Eddie said not to jump to conclusions that maybe somebody fell. But I felt it was going to be bad,” she said.

She was right.

“I feel for their children,” Gilbert said.”
WARMINGTON: Slain billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman fondly remembered

 

[ldlager]

Warmington says “his sources” tell him there was a break-in at the Sherman’s a year before the murders? What a piece of work he is- the break-in reports were made public several months ago- is his source KD? Lol

And joe says he is confident that an arrest will be made next year. He said exactly the same thing last year at this time. Keep repeating the same thing each year joe, hopefully one day you will be right.

 

[dotr]

Dec 13, 2019
"Kevin Donovan, chief investigative reporter at the Toronto Star and author of "The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman," joins BNN Bloomberg to discuss what we know two years after the deaths of Barry Sherman and his wife, Honey."

 

[dotr]

"i phone sitting upside down at the edge of the vanity."
Dec 13 2019
Watch the video: What happened inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before they were murdered | The Star

"What happened inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s North Toronto home between a Wednesday evening and a Friday morning in December 2017 is the focus of a Toronto Police homicide probe.

The Toronto Star has come up with a likely scenario using clues provided by sources, photographs and floor plans from the home, as well as a timeline of events.

Presented here in a video are events related to the murders, beginning with where the Shermans were most likely attacked and ending with an eerie scene that may explain the posing of their bodies."

 

[nuff]

"i phone sitting upside down at the edge of the vanity."
Dec 13 2019
Watch the video: What happened inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before they were murdered | The Star

"What happened inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s North Toronto home between a Wednesday evening and a Friday morning in December 2017 is the focus of a Toronto Police homicide probe.

The Toronto Star has come up with a likely scenario using clues provided by sources, photographs and floor plans from the home, as well as a timeline of events.

"

I think the new video includes information KD was able to get from the TPS officer after his book had been published: HS' phone found on the vanity, and her facial injuries being post-mortem.

 

[ldlager]

Dec 13, 2019
"Kevin Donovan, chief investigative reporter at the Toronto Star and author of "The Billionaire Murders: The Mysterious Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman," joins BNN Bloomberg to discuss what we know two years after the deaths of Barry Sherman and his wife, Honey."

Thanks dotr. I read the complete text that accompanied this video when it came out, and assumed that the text mirrored the video. But I guess not-. I will look at the video now.

 

[ldlager]

I think the new video includes information KD was able to get from the TPS officer after his book had been published: HS' phone found on the vanity, and her facial injuries being post-mortem.

I think I recall in his book that kd says the housekeeper picked up honeys phone from the floor in the bathroom.