Perhaps MS is simply stating a fact. I dont find it 'horrible' at all.
MS is family and very close to Honey throughout their lives, even if they were in 'ordinary financial circumstances' MS would have been there for/with Honey. IMO
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14
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Perhaps MS is simply stating a fact. I dont find it 'horrible' at all.
MS is family and very close to Honey throughout their lives, even if they were in 'ordinary financial circumstances' MS would have been there for/with Honey. IMO
Not to diminish the Shermans' contribution to charity by any means, but I have to admit I was a bit taken aback when I read the amount in the quoted article. I was thinking the amount over time would've far exceeded the $100 million that was written. And especially when the offspring asked for funding two and half times that amount to support business ventures, and the victim's sister was reportedly expecting three times that amount to be gifted to her personally. Could that be an error? imo.
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“They are sadly missed and will be remembered forever for all that they have done,” said the mayor.
The Shermans gifted an estimated $100 million to causes around the world.
WARMINGTON: Sherman murder mystery unsolved, but their legacy lives on | Toronto Sun
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From KD's ebook:
pg 183
There were disagreements along the way, with Jonathon as recently as 2015 asking his father to consider investing an additional $250 million in those businesses.
pg 46
That night Mary made a claim to anyone who would listen that Honey had promised her a gift of $300 million.
pg 190
Friends of the Shermans say that Barry told them that the first two children, Lauren and Jonathon, were given $100 million each at an early age to invet in businesses and real estate. Whether that is true or an exaggeration is not clear.
MistyWaters
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I don’t find it horrible either. Maybe blunt but I’ve no doubt it’s true.
We don’t know the total length of MS’s interview but all we’re reading are brief snippets TPS has taken from those interviews to support their rational for the request to search or obtain, submitted to the Court for approval. These are the documents that’ve been released, not the complete interviews. Context is everything.
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To me, it isn't a horrible thing to say.. and it is most likely very true. I can't imagine the number of requests and people wanting things from them, that they would have endured. It must have been endless. Being of such wealth, it might also be difficult at times to determine who your real friends are, as opposed to people wanting to make friends because they want something. I think that would go without saying. jmo.
Nothing really new in the article, but it provides another link to reference.
Perhaps it is a family belief that being affluent is enough to make one happy?
Maybe it is the way it is worded, but does that mean that the persons suggested by the family (witnesses?) are the poi?
imo, speculation.
Police 'committed' to bringing closure, justice to Sherman family, cops say on 3rd anniversary of billionaire couple's murder
Dec 15 2020 rbbm.
''Some redacted search warrant and production order applications, which were recently released by an Ontario Superior Court judge after the Toronto Star pushed for the court documents to be made public, have provided a glimpse at the early stages of the police investigation.
The documents, which have now been obtained by CTV News, contain initial interviews investigators did with family members, friends, colleagues, and those who worked for the Sherman family.''
Some of the redacted court documents indicated that police were searching for a possible suicide note, which was never found.
“Since suicide by one or both deceased is a possibility, I think it is important to check for a ‘goodbye letter’ or suicide note that might have been drafted in the recent past,” a homicide detective wrote in one court application requesting access to the couple’s phone records.''
''In her interview with police one week after Barry and Honey were found dead, investigators said the couple’s daughter Lauren called the suggestion that they died by suicide ridiculous, noting that they were very wealthy and enjoyed a good life.''
''There are people ‘who would have a reason to hurt them,’ son says''
''Investigators have released very few details about their investigation to date and big blocks of text have been redacted in the recently released court documents so as not to reveal any “persons of interest” identified by witnesses in the case.''
Perhaps it is a family belief that being affluent is enough to make one happy?
Maybe it is the way it is worded, but does that mean that the persons suggested by the family (witnesses?) are the poi?
imo, speculation.
Police 'committed' to bringing closure, justice to Sherman family, cops say on 3rd anniversary of billionaire couple's murder
Dec 15 2020 rbbm.
''Some redacted search warrant and production order applications, which were recently released by an Ontario Superior Court judge after the Toronto Star pushed for the court documents to be made public, have provided a glimpse at the early stages of the police investigation.
The documents, which have now been obtained by CTV News, contain initial interviews investigators did with family members, friends, colleagues, and those who worked for the Sherman family.''
Some of the redacted court documents indicated that police were searching for a possible suicide note, which was never found.
“Since suicide by one or both deceased is a possibility, I think it is important to check for a ‘goodbye letter’ or suicide note that might have been drafted in the recent past,” a homicide detective wrote in one court application requesting access to the couple’s phone records.''
''In her interview with police one week after Barry and Honey were found dead, investigators said the couple’s daughter Lauren called the suggestion that they died by suicide ridiculous, noting that they were very wealthy and enjoyed a good life.''
''There are people ‘who would have a reason to hurt them,’ son says''
''Investigators have released very few details about their investigation to date and big blocks of text have been redacted in the recently released court documents so as not to reveal any “persons of interest” identified by witnesses in the case.''
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Previously there was a discussion of why both Shermans were murdered. If somebody had a personal grudge against one, likely Barry, why kill both of them? As suggested it be far easier to kill Barry alone, away from the Old Colony home and its constant flow of staff. Probably easiest to do it in Florida, and make it look like a random shooting.
However, if you as the perpetrator were interested in eliminating Honey as an heir, then the perspective changes. The old adage that goes 'Follow the Money' sees a huge difference in likely financial outcomes after Barry's death if Honey were still alive.
On the other hand if you had a grudge against both of the deceased, because of some perceived injustice perpetrated upon you, the estate might be irrelevant, especially if you knew you were not an heir. The staging of the bodies, was a personal touch of ridicule. IMO
However, if you as the perpetrator were interested in eliminating Honey as an heir, then the perspective changes. The old adage that goes 'Follow the Money' sees a huge difference in likely financial outcomes after Barry's death if Honey were still alive.
On the other hand if you had a grudge against both of the deceased, because of some perceived injustice perpetrated upon you, the estate might be irrelevant, especially if you knew you were not an heir. The staging of the bodies, was a personal touch of ridicule. IMO
Re the blood- IIRC the initial reports indicated there was blood on the floor, but little to no blood on HS clothing, indicating that she had been lying face down on the floor at some point. In view of the fact that the person who went to the basement approached the bodies from behind, it would seem possible that HS body was hiding the blood on the floor, as she was essentially sitting up.
MS is an interesting lady with a flair for the dramatic. I don't think it's more than that. JMO.
I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam over previous threads, but the body placement is the thing that bothers me the most about this whole case. It's just so bizarre and I keep coming back to it especially after hearing it recounted in that CP24 article quoted above. I think there are a few options:
- body placement was intentional and meant to replicate the statues in the basement (Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement) - this seems the least likely. JMO it's far-fetched and purely coincidental. But if this is indeed the reason, it indicates a very deep emotional connection to the victims and home
- convenience - if the victims were ambushed in the basement (i.e. when BS came home through the garage) it might've been easiest to leave them somewhere in the basement, and the handrail provided an opportunity. The problem with this: why the belts? the perpetrator would've had to go upstairs to get at least 1, I assume? I don't think they would be left alone with any opportunity to escape.
- they were intentionally placed in a room that was rarely accessed so that they wouldn't be found right away, if the perpetrator knew their schedule/that there would be visitors who would likely not go into the pool room
- their mussed/untidy (but made) bed is also interesting, could indicate HS was restrained and lying there (perhaps struggling) while the perpetrator waited for BS to come home. That seems to make sense because it would've presented the perp with the opportunity to grab belts. But if so, why not just kill HS right away... why wait?
I guess there is one other option: if it was actually M/S. But it just seems like such an unlikely location to pick for this if both of them almost never went into that room.
All of this MOO. Interested in other opinions.
- body placement was intentional and meant to replicate the statues in the basement (Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement) - this seems the least likely. JMO it's far-fetched and purely coincidental. But if this is indeed the reason, it indicates a very deep emotional connection to the victims and home
- convenience - if the victims were ambushed in the basement (i.e. when BS came home through the garage) it might've been easiest to leave them somewhere in the basement, and the handrail provided an opportunity. The problem with this: why the belts? the perpetrator would've had to go upstairs to get at least 1, I assume? I don't think they would be left alone with any opportunity to escape.
- they were intentionally placed in a room that was rarely accessed so that they wouldn't be found right away, if the perpetrator knew their schedule/that there would be visitors who would likely not go into the pool room
- their mussed/untidy (but made) bed is also interesting, could indicate HS was restrained and lying there (perhaps struggling) while the perpetrator waited for BS to come home. That seems to make sense because it would've presented the perp with the opportunity to grab belts. But if so, why not just kill HS right away... why wait?
I guess there is one other option: if it was actually M/S. But it just seems like such an unlikely location to pick for this if both of them almost never went into that room.
All of this MOO. Interested in other opinions.
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Thank you Number 8.
I have never really understood or heard definitive reasons why it might be important for the killer(s) that the bodies not be found right away. I can speculate of course, but these are entirely out of the air:
- the killers wanted time to leave the city/country (although this suggests their identity would be known relatively quickly to police after the discovery of the bodies)
- making the time of death more difficult to estimate with a high degree of accuracy, thereby protecting someone's alibi
- wanting a particular person to find the bodies, and knowing that the person would only go to the house on a certain day
- giving the killers time to locate certain documents, valuables, etc. or do something else before the bodies were located
- taking some degree of perverted pleasure in knowing the bodies were left sitting in the house undiscovered for several days
In view of all the activity that was going on in the Sherman household at that time, I don't really think the killer(s) could count on the bodies not being discovered for a couple of days. There were painters sprucing the house up, repair people patching walls, possibly realtors showing the house, etc etc etc. Plus Barry's work would maybe be looking for him (even though we have heard it may not have been that unusual for him to not come into the office, how would the killers know that?); one of their children might stop by the house, etc.
I would hazard a bet that the perpetrators of these crimes were in fact surprised that all of Thursday passed without hearing news that the bodies had been found. If they somehow knew that no one would find the Shermans on Thursday, it would indicate someone with VERY intimate and close knowledge of the Sherman's agenda for the day, including knowing that tradespeople, realtors, etc. probably wouldn't be showing up to the house.
As for the location of the bodies, unless the pool area had some special significance to the criminals, IMO I think the bodies were left in the pool area simply because it was not visible from the street, it had no windows, it was close to where Barry came into the house, and it was likely soundproof to the outside world. Plus perhaps a tile floor might be easier to wipe clean after. All JMO
MistyWaters
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It was the realtor who discovered the bodies and she saw no blood. Whether or not the initial “pool of blood” source was correct, we just don’t know. IIRC another media report mentioned blood at the front door. None mention drag marks.
BBM
Jan, 2018
“She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686
MistyWaters
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This is great news on the 3rd anniversary of the discovery of the murder of Barry and Honey Sherman. TPS seems highly optimistic whatever investigative steps are being taken will lead to an arrest.
Police 'committed' to bringing closure, justice to Sherman family, cops say on 3rd anniversary of billionaire couple's murder
“In a statement sent to CTV News Toronto this week, Toronto police said the case is still “very active and ongoing,” with investigative steps being taken “every single day.”
“This is a difficult day for all of those who were close to the Shermans. We know it is frustrating when limited updates are available to the public in order to protect the integrity of the investigation,” the statement read.
“We are committed to bringing closure and justice to the family and the community.”..”
Police 'committed' to bringing closure, justice to Sherman family, cops say on 3rd anniversary of billionaire couple's murder
“In a statement sent to CTV News Toronto this week, Toronto police said the case is still “very active and ongoing,” with investigative steps being taken “every single day.”
“This is a difficult day for all of those who were close to the Shermans. We know it is frustrating when limited updates are available to the public in order to protect the integrity of the investigation,” the statement read.
“We are committed to bringing closure and justice to the family and the community.”..”
"...if you had a grudge against both of the deceased, because of some perceived injustice perpetrated upon you... The staging of the bodies was a personal touch of ridicule."
I couldn't agree more.
And if there was ever a case on WS where I felt that the actual perpetrator of a specific crime was posting on the very thread pertaining to that crime, this would be it.
Jmo
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Post mortem bleeding would not drip onto her clothing either as the heart is no longer pumping. A wound would ooze blood esp. if she was dragged from elsewhere.
I find it curious that she was 'sitting in a pool' of her own blood unless she had been face down for some time.
Is it a fact that the person approached the bodies from behind? Link please?
If I volunteered or was volunteered to check bodies, I would automatically approach from the front to see if they're breathing or showing any facial signs of life. ie attempting to meet eye to eye.
IMO, MOO etc.
The only way into the pool room is a door at one end of the room. The bodies were facing away from the door , suspended from the railing at the other end of the room, this info has been published numerous times. If you walk from the door to the bodies you have to be approaching the bodies from the rear. That is exactly what I wrote.
You can always walk around in front of the bodies once you get to the other end of the pool, and that may have happened, but that has never been written about by msm afaik. The gardener apparently got to within 1 meter of the bodies but we don’t know if she went to the front of the bodies, or stayed on the side once she got to the end of the pool (we just know she could see at least one of their faces)
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Thanks
I know they were at the end of the pool room away from the door. Dont recall ever reading that the Shermans were facing away from the door, just that they were facing the wall, backs to the pool.
I've just googled three descriptions and all state 'at the end of the pool room, facing the wall, backs to the pool' but none state which wall. Not that its going to break the case or anything.
In my minds eye, that leaves three different positions where they could have been, all with their backs to the pool and facing a wall.
The railing, IIRC, went around on three sides? ergo, three walls.
Yep, she had to look at their faces to know they were blue.
I hope it gets solved in the near future. IMO, MOO etc
I know they were at the end of the pool room away from the door. Dont recall ever reading that the Shermans were facing away from the door, just that they were facing the wall, backs to the pool.
I've just googled three descriptions and all state 'at the end of the pool room, facing the wall, backs to the pool' but none state which wall. Not that its going to break the case or anything.
In my minds eye, that leaves three different positions where they could have been, all with their backs to the pool and facing a wall.
The railing, IIRC, went around on three sides? ergo, three walls.
Yep, she had to look at their faces to know they were blue.
I hope it gets solved in the near future. IMO, MOO etc
AddyFinch
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Just finished KD book. Nothing very revealing as to who dunnit. I’m still sitting on fence, best train of thought ...follow the money. Would’ve thought the S children would have rallied around the wagons after the funeral, but strangely they all fell apart.
casesensitive
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I think we can all agree that Barry and Honey deaths were horrific and over the top. After M/S was ruled out, the manner of their deaths would be deemed a crime of passion ( Mike Arntfield stated this at K. Winter's polygraph test, and most criminologists' statistics bear this out, and police take this info seriously).
There is no doubt in my mind that this was crime of passion. But the question remains, was the killer known to the Shermans, and did the killer act out and kill B and H that night in a fit of rage, or did the killer hire a hitman and tell him to follow the horrific instructions on how to kill them. It is a question of one or the other, and both could be deemed a crime of passion.
I still can't comprehend how this was initially seen as a M/S crime scene by LE, but I trust that they have investigated every person who had a motive that could have resulted in a crime of passion. I'm sure their investigation has extended to the possibility of hitmen.
I noted that TPS and Joe Warmington of the Toronto Sun have both extended warm thoughts to the Sherman kids on the third anniversary of their parent's death. Having Joe chime in seems to be a sign of his support of all the kid's innocence in the murders. I can appreciate where he is coming from. No family member should be accused in the public forum. TPS looks after that.
There is no doubt in my mind that this was crime of passion. But the question remains, was the killer known to the Shermans, and did the killer act out and kill B and H that night in a fit of rage, or did the killer hire a hitman and tell him to follow the horrific instructions on how to kill them. It is a question of one or the other, and both could be deemed a crime of passion.
I still can't comprehend how this was initially seen as a M/S crime scene by LE, but I trust that they have investigated every person who had a motive that could have resulted in a crime of passion. I'm sure their investigation has extended to the possibility of hitmen.
I noted that TPS and Joe Warmington of the Toronto Sun have both extended warm thoughts to the Sherman kids on the third anniversary of their parent's death. Having Joe chime in seems to be a sign of his support of all the kid's innocence in the murders. I can appreciate where he is coming from. No family member should be accused in the public forum. TPS looks after that.
Based on the book and more recent reports about the S children, this was and is a highly dysfunctional family. Not strange they "all fell apart." Do we know if JS and his spouse ever had their surrogate child, BTW?
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