Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[MistyWaters]

To me, irrespective of what KD writes about Ms, the most interesting bit of actual indication of MS character is the way her nieces and nephews have actually treated her since the early days after the murders. Unless one also chooses to not believe what has been reported regarding the distancing and alienation between MS and the Sherman kids, I would think that all of the 4 Sherman children’s actual treatment of their aunt is a pretty good real reflection of how they view her character and behaviour towards them and their deceased parents, and what her true motivations may be. Not one of them has stepped forward to dispute these stories, or to defend her. Unless one believes there is another much more sinister reason why all 4 kids seem to be aligned on this matter? ( I highly doubt there is a more sinister reason) .MOO

Please remind me, MS’s motivations regarding what?

 

[WINDSOR]

ldager wrote,......"Not one of them has stepped forward to dispute these stories, or to defend her."
This comment was made about the Sherman children in reference to their aunt, MS.
It is my belief that the Sherman children have kept a low profile in terms of commenting publically on any aspect of the case. Besides JS interview with KD, nobody has stepped forward to dispute any stories or defend anybody. So I believe we have to be careful about any inferences in regards to MS.

 

[ldlager]

Please remind me, MS’s motivations regarding what?

You would have to ask the Sherman children what they think MS motivations are, and why her statements, her actions, and her interactions with them have led each of the siblings to reportedly terminate any relationship between them and their aunt. Clearly they would have a view on this.

 

[dotr]

What is meant by referring to BS as "surrogate father" father?! to MS or her children, or an actual surrogate?
Children of busy people (and high profile) parents, can sometimes, imo, be resentful and competitive with others perceived as demanding or ''stealing'' their parents time, love and attention.
Sometimes cold hard cash is viewed as a tangible representation of love.
speculation, imo.
Meant to post this article for the bit concerning MS, but found within it something more intriguing and not iirc, much discussed here about the ''faceless'' facetime appointment with prospective house buyer.

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

2017 rbbm.
'Bizarrely surreal': Shermans' son speaks at memorial for billionaire couple
''Honey Sherman's sister, Mary Shechtman, said she's been in a fog since the loss.

Describing her sister as her "best friend" and "other half," and Barry Sherman as both a brother-in-law and surrogate father, Shechtman said she fears the worst is yet to come.

"I'm standing here confused and dazed and really angry, and I'm afraid for the shock that's going to wear off and the reality that's going to set in."

Shechtman reflected on her sister's humble beginnings as the daughter of Holocaust survivors, recalling a childhood far removed from the affluence that would later come to the family as Apotex flourished.

She and other relatives said her sister never forgot those origins, adding they fuelled her lifelong focus on family and on giving back to society.''

 

[MistyWaters]

You would have to ask the Sherman children what they think MS motivations are, and why her statements, her actions, and her interactions with them have led each of the siblings to reportedly terminate any relationship between them and their aunt. Clearly they would have a view on this.

I thought the latest “news” has the Sherman children not all speaking to each other as well? It’s hard to keep up. But if that’s true it seems impossible to know who others are speaking to while they’re giving them the cold shoulder. I doubt KDs reporting is up-to-the-moment as he appears to rerun his prior published stories from time to time.

It’s utterly common for interactions between adult family members who all live apart to ebb and flow over time. The people we’re discussing are all adults with lives of their own. I don’t understand how it’s worth wasting time judging the nature of their interactions based on speculative reasons.

If KD knows who murdered the Shermans (forget the question - how could he?) he’s not going to waste time publishing gossip, let alone clues to risk having to share his $10 million reward. Don’t mistake his job to be that of public service, he’s in the business for profit, and clicks.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

What is meant by referring to BS as "surrogate father" father?! to MS or her children, or an actual surrogate?
Children of busy people (and high profile) parents, can sometimes, imo, be resentful and competitive with others perceived as demanding or ''stealing'' their parents time, love and attention.
Sometimes cold hard cash is viewed as a tangible representation of love.
speculation, imo.
Meant to post this article for the bit concerning MS, but found within it something more intriguing and not iirc, much discussed here about the ''faceless'' facetime appointment with prospective house buyer.

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

2017 rbbm.
'Bizarrely surreal': Shermans' son speaks at memorial for billionaire couple
''Honey Sherman's sister, Mary Shechtman, said she's been in a fog since the loss.

Describing her sister as her "best friend" and "other half," and Barry Sherman as both a brother-in-law and surrogate father, Shechtman said she fears the worst is yet to come.

"I'm standing here confused and dazed and really angry, and I'm afraid for the shock that's going to wear off and the reality that's going to set in."

Shechtman reflected on her sister's humble beginnings as the daughter of Holocaust survivors, recalling a childhood far removed from the affluence that would later come to the family as Apotex flourished.

She and other relatives said her sister never forgot those origins, adding they fuelled her lifelong focus on family and on giving back to society.''

I think this link includes the entire memorial. At the time the media was rolling with murder/suicide so thinking back to that, it was quite remarkable how everyone who spoke celebrated the Sherman lives either denying or totally ignoring those rumours. Another thing about the memorial, all those people in attendance with some sort of connection to the couple is an excellent reminder, as strangers, we really know little or nothing about them other than it’s fair to say their circle was gigantic.
Memorial service for billionaire philanthropist couple Barry a...

 

[JoyMBee]

Hard to believe that H would not have a will. Even if B left her provided for with a living trust, she probably had some investments and property in her own name, jewelery and family heirlooms that she would want to bequeath to her family or close friends. But who knows when so much was left in the home before it was demolished. Maybe her children didn't care about things like that and H was aware of how they felt. Or I'm sure their children have beautiful homes and want for nothing. I believe she did have a current will. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Hard to believe that H would not have a will. Even if B left her provided for with a living trust, she probably had some investments and property in her own name, jewelery and family heirlooms that she would want to bequeath to her family or close friends. But who knows when so much was left in the home before it was demolished. Maybe her children didn't care about things like that and H was aware of how they felt. Or I'm sure their children have beautiful homes and want for nothing. I believe she did have a current will. JMO

Either Honey didn’t have a Will or she had a Will.

Source reveals Honey Sherman updated her will shortly before billionaire couple's murder - NEWS 1130

 

[JDG]

Hard to believe that H would not have a will. Even if B left her provided for with a living trust, she probably had some investments and property in her own name, jewelery and family heirlooms that she would want to bequeath to her family or close friends. But who knows when so much was left in the home before it was demolished. Maybe her children didn't care about things like that and H was aware of how they felt. Or I'm sure their children have beautiful homes and want for nothing. I believe she did have a current will. JMO

Early on, wayyy early on there were comments, possibly in Toronto Life that Honey 'has sure cleared out a lot of stuff' for the house to be staged. It was a comment from a 'friend' who had been in the home many times.

Anything that they 'valued' or wished to pass on to family would have been removed from the property before it was listed for sale.

I'm sure she had some properties but they were likely joint with BS as he held tight to the purse strings. IMO

The items left in the home were an old fridge and some furniture that no one in the family wanted, so it was disposed of during the demolition, nothing unusual there. IMO

As Billionaires, I'm sure they want for nothing also but lets not begrudge them their inheritance nor judge them as such.

ETA: HS did have a will. She had recently (just before being murdered) made some changes to her will. A new grandchild had just been born and it was suggested that a codicil had been added for said grandchild. Anyhow, she had recently made changes to her will. Strange that it has not been found IMO, MOO, JMO.

 

[JDG]

You would have to ask the Sherman children what they think MS motivations are, and why her statements, her actions, and her interactions with them have led each of the siblings to reportedly terminate any relationship between them and their aunt. Clearly they would have a view on this.

Where is this reported?? Link please. Or is it pure speculation?

In many families, or most families, there is that one person who is the glue to family dinners, get togethers etc and when they pass away the other people often drift apart without rancorous feelings.

Often its the mother or grandmother; in both rich and poor families. No motivation, just life.

 

[al66pine]

Repayment, from Mary &/or Husband?

By repayment could work both ways- I meant possibly the estate or the beneficiaries could ask for repayment of all amounts loaned/advancedto MS and her family over the course of 30+ years.

@ldlager Thanks for your clarification about repayment working both ways. I wonder if executor, administrator of BS' estate (or Canadian-equivalent title) would find a basis for estate to pursue claims against Mary and/husband or their business(es?) to try to collect on any loans or transfers BS made for their benefit. Imo doubtful, because---

Iiuc, the bulk of loan(s) BS/Sherfam co's was made to MS & husband for jewelry business, which later filed and was declared Bankrupt. This post addresses only the BS' loan to jewelry business, not any other loans or transfers to Mary and/or husband and speaks generally to US not specifically Canadian BR'y law. Typically a creditor making a loan to a business which subsequently files for Bankruptcy receives only pennies or zero on the dollar from debtor, and the remainder of unpaid principal & interest is discharged in BR'y procedure. IOW if this had happened (in US) w jewelry business-debtor & BS as creditor, once the BR'y case was closed, BS would be SOL, Short Of Luck, to sue afterword for $ amt still unpaid. Imo may be true for BS/Sherfam co.s who were creditors or others claiming under him (his heirs, successors, & assigns) so may also apply to BS' estate, and to his son & three dau's.*

Imo: as to BS' loan(s) to this bankrupt jewelry business, BS' estate or heirs would not recover payment in court. If I'm wrong, hoping Canadians here will temporarily suspend their ever-courteous, diplomatic custom to
correct this post. Esp'ly our legal professionals in the Great White North. my2ct.

________________________________________________________
* Yes, it's waaay more complicated, depending on whether BS was a secured or unsecured creditor, form of business (was jewelry business a sole proprietorship, partnership, LLC, gen bus corp, or other form of corp? Was it a Canadian bus?), claims - such as taxes & employee payroll - which may have priority status over BS' claims, etc, etc, etc. Also did Mary and/or husband sign to personally guarantee the loans, to assume personal responsibility to repay the loans in event of business failure?
Too many other factors to speculate about precise outcome re any recovery of loan $ in bankruptcy.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Yes I think the staging was definitely preplanned, the killer was fulfilling a fantasy to murder the couple. Was it the housekeeper who stated Honey kept their daily schedule of activities on Outlook, on her ipad? Was somebody privy of this information or was their home internet hacked? Don’t know but I think it’s true the Shermans’ lifestyle in general was far from impermeable to an enemy.

The timing of the murders IMO is key as well, only days before Honey was to fly to Florida, Barry to join her and stay until the end of January. As their home was already listed for sale, the killer may’ve perceived the opportunity clock to be ticking down, especially if the Shermans had planned to temporarily live in a condo with far greater security, while their new home was being constructed.

I agree, I don’t think the statues had any connection. If the choice to stage bodies was made in such a way to appear at first glance as a deliberate s/s or m/s, it would seem to me there’s no better option than self-hanging especially if it was supported by other planted evidence left at the scene. Hanging has also long been associated to the implication of Guilt.

I’m also certain there’s far more autopsy evidence and everything we think we know is minuscule within the investigation’s big picture. I recall the Insp Homicide stating the Sherman investigation was extremely complex and had become the largest in terms of resourcing in the entire history of TPS. I also notice TPS has not put much effort in actively solicited tips, as often LE will do if there’s indications a case is growing cold. So I’m optimistic the status of the investigation is indeed active and it’s just a matter of time until an arrest is announced.

...all my humble opinion.

Thank you I appreciate your opinion, great insights you have shared too.

Re: the statues having a connection, I think mimicking a position is connected I just do not know how the perp interprets the statues and what it means to copy the positions? To me it is unbelievable that his glasses were perched and positioned perfectly on his nose 36 hours later! I think the belts were to hold them in the position of the art figures after they had passed. And Honey's body moved/slumped through rigor mortise so she was not in perfect position as the female figure.

I too think this case has far too many coincidences and not only the timing of the killings that both had no appointments the next day or many of the out-of-character, or chaotic situations going on in their lives at the time. Some things like Honey missed a meeting without sending a note that she would not be able to make it, apologized something came up. Family disagreements. Appointments scheduled to be at the home for Thursday were canceled, not Friday appointments, everyone was to be there on Friday. Barry calling in loans and saying the till is empty and he needs the 50 Mil, but spending 50Mil for US warehousing to expand Apotex, building a new home, gifting Honey, updating wills, (reports both updated wills) just to name some of what we have been told going on at that time.

Yes, I agree that this case is extremely complicated and my gut tells me LE thought so too the moment they walked in, you find two people hung up with belts, winter coats partially on - pulled down arms to reduce mobility,(I think when they put on the wrist ties - however, removed from the scene) but arms are behind them as they sit with the torso and above straight-up attached by the neck with a belt to handrail.

Just the fact alone that Barry had his coat pulled down his arms from behind to reduce his mobility would indicate it impossible that he could have strung himself up and tied a belt around his neck in this manner.


Bobbi Pearl

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Rsbm

D/S Gomes wouldn’t comment about whether anything had been stolen from the home. @11:12:

Yes, I say this as the housekeeper and all other people who entered the home said nothing of the home being ransacked. They pointed a few out of place items but it did not seem to make them think something bad had happened and they called for help.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

According to this article, police arrived only minutes later than Fire:

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after - Path of Ex

Yes, I think Police are on traffic patrol and answered a call, I assume 1 hour later homicide arrived onsite.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I found this interesting, from the beginning LE knew this crime was going to be on everyone's lips. While just wrapping up the Toronto serial killer BM case, which they knew they would take heat for.

From KD article
Lead homicide detective in Barry and Honey Sherman case did not go to crime scene on Old Colony Road for four days
KEVIN DONOVAN MARCH 17, 2021

"As uniformed constables secured the perimeter of the 12,000-square-foot Sherman home by tying yellow police tape between bushes and a realtor’s sign, two doctors arrived: Coroner Dr. David Giddens, and forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Pickup. The then chief of police, Mark Saunders, would later tell reporters that having the pathologist and coroner present at the crime scene was proof of how seriously the police were taking the high-profile investigation. While a coroner would typically go to a suspected crime scene, a forensic pathologist would not, sources say."

The Difference Between a Coroner & a Forensic Pathologist
Amrita Chuasiriporn
Updated September 26, 2017

TV shows and movies seem to use the terms “coroner” and “forensic pathologist” interchangeably. In real life, they’re very different positions. If you work with them, or if you’re considering becoming one or the other, it’s important to know the distinctions between the two. While there can be some overlap in function, the job focus of each position is vastly different.

Coroner
A coroner holds an elected office and may or may not have a medical background. Individual rules regarding background requirements for potential coroners are determined by each jurisdiction, and are variable. Some coroners may have medical backgrounds, while others may have law enforcement backgrounds -- or both. Coroners may also have funeral home backgrounds. A coroner can call for an inquest into the manner of someone’s death. If an individual coroner does not have the medical skills necessary to investigate, she can assign a doctor to examine the body and prepare a report. Coroners may also have certain legal powers depending on the jurisdiction -- including subpoena power.

Forensic Pathologist
Forensic pathologists have strong medical backgrounds, and may or may not be part of law enforcement. They’re also commonly called medical examiners, or MEs. Many times, they’re kept separate from law enforcement to encourage a degree of objectivity in their medical investigations. Most medical examiners are appointed to their positions rather than elected. Many forensic pathologists receive board certification before being appointed to positions.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Thank you I appreciate your opinion, great insights you have shared too.

Re: the statues having a connection, I think mimicking a position is connected I just do not know how the perp interprets the statues and what it means to copy the positions? To me it is unbelievable that his glasses were perched and positioned perfectly on his nose 36 hours later! I think the belts were to hold them in the position of the art figures after they had passed. And Honey's body moved/slumped through rigor mortise so she was not in perfect position as the female figure.

I too think this case has far too many coincidences and not only the timing of the killings that both had no appointments the next day or many of the out-of-character, or chaotic situations going on in their lives at the time. Some things like Honey missed a meeting without sending a note that she would not be able to make it, apologized something came up. Family disagreements. Appointments scheduled to be at the home for Thursday were canceled, not Friday appointments, everyone was to be there on Friday. Barry calling in loans and saying the till is empty and he needs the 50 Mil, but spending 50Mil for US warehousing to expand Apotex, building a new home, gifting Honey, updating wills, (reports both updated wills) just to name some of what we have been told going on at that time.

Yes, I agree that this case is extremely complicated and my gut tells me LE thought so too the moment they walked in, you find two people hung up with belts, winter coats partially on - pulled down arms to reduce mobility,(I think when they put on the wrist ties - however, removed from the scene) but arms are behind them as they sit with the torso and above straight-up attached by the neck with a belt to handrail.

Just the fact alone that Barry had his coat pulled down his arms from behind to reduce his mobility would indicate it impossible that he could have strung himself up and tied a belt around his neck in this manner.


Bobbi Pearl

Rbbm
Do you have a link for that about cancellation of any plans on Thursday? (I’m not trying to be the link police, I’d be interested to read it.)

The only unusual thing that I’ve read about Thursday is that Honey’s PA had Thursday (and Friday) off as she was on vacation. Honey was expected at regular UJA meeting at 8:00 am on Thursday (KD’s ebook pg 14) and Barry was expected at work.

 

[dotr]

Plans..
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home, Toronto police say
''With plans set for a Tuesday dinner at Alexandra and Brad’s house, Honey emailed the group in the afteroon that Tuesday suggesting a new plan: “cld we have channukah on fri? just found some eggless recipes for latkas on the net — cldnt figure out where to find recipes before — cld make them fri in order to celebrate — cld also drop by tues or tomorrow wed — but without latkas — pls let all know what you prefer — also — what shld we do re (child name) re gifts — I have one gift I know he will like — any suggestions? xoxo.”

A few minutes later on the Tuesday, Alexandra replied to the group, saying “Can we hold off on tonight’s (Tuesday) visit and just see you on Friday? We are looking forward to it and thank you so much for making egg free latkas, I know it is a hassle and it means a lot to us — thank you!”

Honey responds a few minutes later, “no problem — any gift suggestions?????? have a clear ball that lights up when you bounce it.” Alexandra responds, saying: “Wow! He will love it! Thank you!”

Honey confirms the plans later in the day on Tuesday, writing to the group: “we will b there at 6 will b bringing latkas, presents, dessert that (child name) can eat.”

The Tuesday emails are the last on the chain. The Star has previously reported that on the Friday the Sherman bodies were discovered, Honey had arranged for her housekeeper to be at the Old Colony Road home of the Shermans to help her make latkas for the dinner later that night.''

 

[MistyWaters]

Plans..
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home, Toronto police say
''With plans set for a Tuesday dinner at Alexandra and Brad’s house, Honey emailed the group in the afteroon that Tuesday suggesting a new plan: “cld we have channukah on fri? just found some eggless recipes for latkas on the net — cldnt figure out where to find recipes before — cld make them fri in order to celebrate — cld also drop by tues or tomorrow wed — but without latkas — pls let all know what you prefer — also — what shld we do re (child name) re gifts — I have one gift I know he will like — any suggestions? xoxo.”

A few minutes later on the Tuesday, Alexandra replied to the group, saying “Can we hold off on tonight’s (Tuesday) visit and just see you on Friday? We are looking forward to it and thank you so much for making egg free latkas, I know it is a hassle and it means a lot to us — thank you!”

Honey responds a few minutes later, “no problem — any gift suggestions?????? have a clear ball that lights up when you bounce it.” Alexandra responds, saying: “Wow! He will love it! Thank you!”

Honey confirms the plans later in the day on Tuesday, writing to the group: “we will b there at 6 will b bringing latkas, presents, dessert that (child name) can eat.”

The Tuesday emails are the last on the chain. The Star has previously reported that on the Friday the Sherman bodies were discovered, Honey had arranged for her housekeeper to be at the Old Colony Road home of the Shermans to help her make latkas for the dinner later that night.''

Until a portion of the ITOs were released, I don’t recall anything ever said in the media about a 6:21 pm phonecall made by Honey.

“The last phone call Honey made was at 6:21 p.m. on Dec. 13 and preliminary data obtained from her iPhone showed several missed calls on Dec. 14 and Dec. 15.”
It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far

 

[ldlager]

Where is this reported?? Link please. Or is it pure speculation?

In many families, or most families, there is that one person who is the glue to family dinners, get togethers etc and when they pass away the other people often drift apart without rancorous feelings.

Often its the mother or grandmother; in both rich and poor families. No motivation, just life.

The alienation of the relationship between MS and the Sherman children has been reported in numerous articles published in MSM and posted here over many months. This includes (just off the top of my head) holding separate Shivsas for the Shermans; no MS as head of the charity; and kicking MS out of the storage unit with JS in attendance. One can of course choose not to believe what has been written and published. Here is one link, there are others as I have stated.
Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle

 

[branmuffin]

I’m not so sure it’s a warning by the perpetrator for others to stay silent as much as it was to inflict horror, humiliation and shame upon the victims and the Sherman family,

In terms of horror, humiliation and shame, I believe the staging was extremely mild. Many examples of murders that were much more horrific. Manson, Williams, Bernardo, MacArthur, to just name a few.

The difference between the Sherman's murders and those other infamous cases is that only one (the Manson killings) were meant to horrify and strike fear in the hearts of the general public. The other cases were just horrifying, period.

No one other than immediate family and friends would be aware of the Sherman deaths mimicking the figurines that some family members found creepy.