Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[MistyWaters]

I think the killers searched for, and used another belt, matching the one Barry was wearing because part of the staging of a murder/suicide, was to make it look like Barry chose the belt that was in his closet. They may have even thought that it would be like perfectionist Barry to make sure the belts were a matching pair, and also used because they were a gift from Honey. IMO

For sure, and in staging a double suicide or murder/suicide by strangulation the killer would need to use belts owned by the victims in order to make the staged scene more convincing.

 

[Satchie]

Whether LE believes it’s an impulse crime or not may be dependant on how the killer/s entered the home. Did he/they enter through the skylights, use a copied key from the real estate lockbox, walk right in through the allegedly open basement door, enter through the garage as Barry drive his car in, or ring the front doorbell?.... All these possibilities and more have been discussed but we really don’t know.

I know. I do think these seemingly unimportant details are key, though. LE have to try to reconstruct all these elements into a coherent event that can point them wherevto look for more evidence. It's not just about offering a 10 million award for tips. (I wonder how many people phoned in tips that one of the family did it? It cost nothing to call in, and maybe even make up some evidence, just in case you're right and hit the jackpot.)

 

[MistyWaters]

I know. I do think these seemingly unimportant details are key, though. LE have to try to reconstruct all these elements into a coherent event that can point them wherevto look for more evidence. It's not just about offering a 10 million award for tips. (I wonder how many people phoned in tips that one of the family did it? It cost nothing to call in, and maybe even make up some evidence, just in case you're right and hit the jackpot.)

Yes I bet TPS have received a huge volume of tips from people hoping to hit the jackpot. Indeed KD already laid much of the foundation which could easily be worked forward to incriminate various family members with only a little imagination.

ETA - LE will often state on crime solving they allow the evidence to lead them forward toward the suspect. But it’s common for the minds of us sleuthers to think exactly opposite to that - we decide who we believe might be a likely suspect and from there we rely on speculation as to how or why the suspect might’ve committed the crime. The problem is we know very little regarding the evidence. Hopefully it indeed is leading LE close to an arrest.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

would vehicles and people be clearly visible seeing it was dark and possibly snowing?

would vehicles and people be clearly visible seeing it was dark and possibly snowing?

Yes reflections and shadows show up as flickers of light, some headlights as well, you may not get license plate details but you can find other information that could confirm other footage, timing etc.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

For sure, and in staging a double suicide or murder/suicide by strangulation the killer would need to use belts owned by the victims in order to make the staged scene more convincing.

Hi MistyWaters,

Do you feel the staging was pre-planned?

If it was preplanned to choke to death, why strangle them with another object and then take a chance rummaging around the home to find another belt to hang them up? did they know that no one would drop by or knock at the door? To "string" them up with belts so they remain in an upright position, possibly mimicking statues? why not strangle with the belt? Or put a bag over the head to suffocate, they had their hands bound and could not easily fight back?

It is assumed ( I do not know why we assume this) that the suggested ties to the wrist, plastic ties, did not come from the home. How can anyone be 100%, painters we in the basement painting on Wed., who knows if they had some ties to tie up drop sheets and they left a couple behind? Many (service / hired hand / pool cleaner / Furnace repair etc.) people have been on-site to perform jobs over the many years, it is stated that Barry and Honey did not frequent the basement (yes Barry entered there and went straight up the stairs) so who can say that no ties were in a toolbox somewhere in the house?

I have not yet come to the same conclusion, I still have so many questions that run in my head, I can strike out many of my own wild "what if's" with the details I have learned here on web sleuths. But I am not sure the initial plan was to stage them looking like the statues. I understand putting them in the pool area, it is locked off and temperature would be with humidity - to alter the time of death and somewhat hide the bodies from open view.

I am not sure we are privy to the complete autopsy details that would tell us if they had any blood pooling after death in any areas and that they were deceased when strung up with belts.

I still think it was a horrible night for the two of them, if the time of death was midnight that meant they were held for 2-3 hours before death. Who felt they had that amount of time to hang out in the home. The home was not ransacked. No items reported stolen.

 

[JoyMBee]

Whether LE believes it’s an impulse crime or not may be dependant on how the killer/s entered the home. Did he/they enter through the skylights, use a copied key from the real estate lockbox, walk right in through the allegedly open basement door, enter through the garage as Barry drive his car in, or ring the front doorbell?.... All these possibilities and more have been discussed but we really don’t know.

I think at least one killer may have entered through the front door as I thought I read that the housekeeper found Honey's phone on the floor by the powder room door near the entrance. Either Honey answered the door or they entered earlier and surprised her. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Hi MistyWaters,

Do you feel the staging was pre-planned?

If it was preplanned to choke to death, why strangle them with another object and then take a chance rummaging around the home to find another belt to hang them up? did they know that no one would drop by or knock at the door? To "string" them up with belts so they remain in an upright position, possibly mimicking statues? why not strangle with the belt? Or put a bag over the head to suffocate, they had their hands bound and could not easily fight back?

It is assumed ( I do not know why we assume this) that the suggested ties to the wrist, plastic ties, did not come from the home. How can anyone be 100%, painters we in the basement painting on Wed., who knows if they had some ties to tie up drop sheets and they left a couple behind? Many (service / hired hand / pool cleaner / Furnace repair etc.) people have been on-site to perform jobs over the many years, it is stated that Barry and Honey did not frequent the basement (yes Barry entered there and went straight up the stairs) so who can say that no ties were in a toolbox somewhere in the house?

I have not yet come to the same conclusion, I still have so many questions that run in my head, I can strike out many of my own wild "what if's" with the details I have learned here on web sleuths. But I am not sure the initial plan was to stage them looking like the statues. I understand putting them in the pool area, it is locked off and temperature would be with humidity - to alter the time of death and somewhat hide the bodies from open view.

I am not sure we are privy to the complete autopsy details that would tell us if they had any blood pooling after death in any areas and that they were deceased when strung up with belts.

I still think it was a horrible night for the two of them, if the time of death was midnight that meant they were held for 2-3 hours before death. Who felt they had that amount of time to hang out in the home. The home was not ransacked. No items reported stolen.

Yes I think the staging was definitely preplanned, the killer was fulfilling a fantasy to murder the couple. Was it the housekeeper who stated Honey kept their daily schedule of activities on Outlook, on her ipad? Was somebody privy of this information or was their home internet hacked? Don’t know but I think it’s true the Shermans’ lifestyle in general was far from impermeable to an enemy.

The timing of the murders IMO is key as well, only days before Honey was to fly to Florida, Barry to join her and stay until the end of January. As their home was already listed for sale, the killer may’ve perceived the opportunity clock to be ticking down, especially if the Shermans had planned to temporarily live in a condo with far greater security, while their new home was being constructed.

I agree, I don’t think the statues had any connection. If the choice to stage bodies was made in such a way to appear at first glance as a deliberate s/s or m/s, it would seem to me there’s no better option than self-hanging especially if it was supported by other planted evidence left at the scene. Hanging has also long been associated to the implication of Guilt.

I’m also certain there’s far more autopsy evidence and everything we think we know is minuscule within the investigation’s big picture. I recall the Insp Homicide stating the Sherman investigation was extremely complex and had become the largest in terms of resourcing in the entire history of TPS. I also notice TPS has not put much effort in actively solicited tips, as often LE will do if there’s indications a case is growing cold. So I’m optimistic the status of the investigation is indeed active and it’s just a matter of time until an arrest is announced.

...all my humble opinion.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The home was not ransacked. No items reported stolen.

Rsbm

D/S Gomes wouldn’t comment about whether anything had been stolen from the home. @11:12:

 

[MistyWaters]

I think at least one killer may have entered through the front door as I thought I read that the housekeeper found Honey's phone on the floor by the powder room door near the entrance. Either Honey answered the door or they entered earlier and surprised her. JMO

There’s been so many “leaks” it’s difficult to keep track of them all!

But I distinctly recall discussion here quite awhile ago regarding an unnamed media source talking about a pool of blood found near the front door, later cleaned up iirc. It left us speculating if indeed Honey has simply opened the door to somebody ringing the doorbell and was then attacked, which would also support the finding of the cellphone.

Does anybody remember the source regarding the “pool of blood at the front door”? Google isn’t being helpful.

 

[ldlager]

I know. I do think these seemingly unimportant details are key, though. LE have to try to reconstruct all these elements into a coherent event that can point them wherevto look for more evidence. It's not just about offering a 10 million award for tips. (I wonder how many people phoned in tips that one of the family did it? It cost nothing to call in, and maybe even make up some evidence, just in case you're right and hit the jackpot.)

if 4 terabytes of video then LE should be easily finished reviewing all that video by now. In view of no arrests almost 3.5 years later, it seems doubtful that the video, on its own at least, produced any evidence sufficient to have someone charged. Certainly I don’t believe that the killers drove up the driveway and got out of the car, nothing that obvious.

 

[MistyWaters]

if 4 terabytes of video then LE should be easily finished reviewing all that video by now. In view of no arrests almost 3.5 years later, it seems doubtful that the video, on its own at least, produced any evidence sufficient to have someone charged. Certainly I don’t believe that the killers drove up the driveway and got out of the car, nothing that obvious.

Right, video on its own would be insufficient. But disproving an alibi by a suspect who might’ve claimed he was nowhere near the Sherman home that night would be good progress.

 

[ldlager]

Hi MistyWaters,

Do you feel the staging was pre-planned?

If it was preplanned to choke to death, why strangle them with another object and then take a chance rummaging around the home to find another belt to hang them up? did they know that no one would drop by or knock at the door? To "string" them up with belts so they remain in an upright position, possibly mimicking statues? why not strangle with the belt? Or put a bag over the head to suffocate, they had their hands bound and could not easily fight back?

It is assumed ( I do not know why we assume this) that the suggested ties to the wrist, plastic ties, did not come from the home. How can anyone be 100%, painters we in the basement painting on Wed., who knows if they had some ties to tie up drop sheets and they left a couple behind? Many (service / hired hand / pool cleaner / Furnace repair etc.) people have been on-site to perform jobs over the many years, it is stated that Barry and Honey did not frequent the basement (yes Barry entered there and went straight up the stairs) so who can say that no ties were in a toolbox somewhere in the house?

To be fair, we don’t know if ties were used to suppocate them, or a bag or a rope. We don’t have that info.

I have not yet come to the same conclusion, I still have so many questions that run in my head, I can strike out many of my own wild "what if's" with the details I have learned here on web sleuths. But I am not sure the initial plan was to stage them looking like the statues. I understand putting them in the pool area, it is locked off and temperature would be with humidity - to alter the time of death and somewhat hide the bodies from open view.

I am not sure we are privy to the complete autopsy details that would tell us if they had any blood pooling after death in any areas and that they were deceased when strung up with belts.

I still think it was a horrible night for the two of them, if the time of death was midnight that meant they were held for 2-3 hours before death. Who felt they had that amount of time to hang out in the home. The home was not ransacked. No items reported stolen.

 

[ldlager]

I think at least one killer may have entered through the front door as I thought I read that the housekeeper found Honey's phone on the floor by the powder room door near the entrance. Either Honey answered the door or they entered earlier and surprised her. JMO

there were 2 other sets of doors near the front of the house, one into the laundry room and one set into the dining room. These are also potential source of access for the killers. It is said that HS typically used the laundry entrance IIRC.

https://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

 

[ldlager]

There’s been so many “leaks” it’s difficult to keep track of them all!

But I distinctly recall discussion here quite awhile ago regarding an unnamed media source talking about a pool of blood found near the front door, later cleaned up iirc. It left us speculating if indeed Honey has simply opened the door to somebody ringing the doorbell and was then attacked, which would also support the finding of the cellphone.

Does anybody remember the source regarding the “pool of blood at the front door”? Google isn’t being helpful.

I recall discussion very early on, but it has never been reported again afaik, and the blood pool that has been reported was in the pool area near HS body. If there was a pool of blood upstairs surely the cleaners or the realtor would have seen it I would imagine.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

There’s been so many “leaks” it’s difficult to keep track of them all!

But I distinctly recall discussion here quite awhile ago regarding an unnamed media source talking about a pool of blood found near the front door, later cleaned up iirc. It left us speculating if indeed Honey has simply opened the door to somebody ringing the doorbell and was then attacked, which would also support the finding of the cellphone.

Does anybody remember the source regarding the “pool of blood at the front door”? Google isn’t being helpful.

Warmington, but he later corrected the story about his police source being wrong (the same source had told him it was a m/s):

“There were two crimes scenes inside the house, said the officer, who suggested Honey had been struck by something near the front door and dragged to the pool area where she was suited up with a belt that was secured to a railing. It was also suggested police believed her husband then took his own life by hanging himself right beside her.”
WARMINGTON: Barry and Honey Sherman's legacy endures, so does hunt for their killer a year later | Toronto Sun

ETA: I cannot find the original story, just the stories correcting the original version.

 

[ldlager]

Right, video on its own would be insufficient. But disproving an alibi by a suspect who might’ve claimed he was nowhere near the Sherman home that night would be good progress.

Certainly their daughter Alex and her husband Brad knew the Sherman’s would be at home that night, as they had rescheduled their dinner to later in the week. Likely 2 of many people that knew the Sherman’s schedule.

 

[MistyWaters]

Certainly their daughter Alex and her husband Brad knew the Sherman’s would be at home that night, as they had rescheduled their dinner to later in the week. Likely 2 of many people that knew the Sherman’s schedule.

Yes, 2 amongst who knows how many of the 240 or so people whom TPS interviewed, each of them presumably knowing something of the Shermans’ lives or TPS wouldn’t waste time talking to them.

That much of the 300 or so pages of the released ITO’s were redacted says to me TPS and the Judge who approved the redactions intend to keep confidential what was learned during those early days of the investigation.

“The heavily redacted ITOs don't reveal much about what police discovered.”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-honey-sherman-murder-2021-1.5860527

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I recall discussion very early on, but it has never been reported again afaik, and the blood pool that has been reported was in the pool area near HS body. If there was a pool of blood upstairs surely the cleaners or the realtor would have seen it I would imagine.

I’m looking at the early threads— I found this older article (January, 2018):
"The team of private investigators believes that the Shermans were, in fact, killed on Dec. 13, two days before they were found. This conclusion is based on the fact that Honey was wearing the same clothes she was last seen in, on Dec. 13, according to the source.

Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686

 

[MistyWaters]

Warmington, but he later corrected the story about his police source being wrong (the same source had told him it was a m/s):

“There were two crimes scenes inside the house, said the officer, who suggested Honey had been struck by something near the front door and dragged to the pool area where she was suited up with a belt that was secured to a railing. It was also suggested police believed her husband then took his own life by hanging himself right beside her.”
WARMINGTON: Barry and Honey Sherman's legacy endures, so does hunt for their killer a year later | Toronto Sun

ETA: I cannot find the original story, just the stories correcting the original version.

Thank you very much! That’s likely what prompted the discussion I was remembering. This was the same source who told Warmington the deaths were m/s?.....that’s very interesting.

 

[deugirtni]

"Present in the house were the Shermans’ realtor, the housekeeper and the woman who tended and watered the Shermans’ plants. Each was placed in a separate room, according to insiders, and they were not allowed to speak to anyone before being taken to a police station for formal interviews.

The housekeeper, left to her own devices in a room near the front hallway, did what came naturally to her — she took her mop and continued cleaning the floors. Eventually, an officer told her to stop, so as not to contaminate the crime scene."

Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement