Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[Satchie]

my impression was that someone may have sat on a made/unmade bed while thinking about the belts. IMO

IF it was someone who had knowledge of the household, they'd have known where to look for belts immediately. IMO

Seeing as they still had their coats/jackets on, highly unlikely that HS had gone to bed that evening. IMO

ETA: Just saw some other posts re: bed. Maybe it was all or maybe it was irrelevant. IMO

That's a good reminder, that perp/s possibly had to look for and find at least one belt. The housekeeper mentioned that the bedroom was more untidy than usual, that may reflect a search.

I've read about intruders using electrical cord (ripped off toaster or something) or a scarf/coatbelt from a front hall closet, but not so much searching bedroom closets and drawers for a belt. And, of course, if something was brought to restrain wrists, it seems extra rope could also be brought. Possibly a belt was brought, that would be hard to figure out: was it Barry's, Honey's or the perps?

If the second belt was taken from the bedroom, to me that seems very clear evidence it was staged m/s. To go to that trouble of searching the bedroom, that seems like a detail someone wouldn't make any effort for, unless they were trying to make it look like Barry's actions.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

This is a repost, but I just went to check the TPS website agin.

11:45 am seems to be what the court records say and what the police and witnesses have said....but the TPS website still has the police responding an hour later:
Homicide #64/2017
Homicide #65/2017
View attachment 289920 View attachment 289921

The good news, hopefully, is that their cases are still listed under ‘active’, not ‘cold’.

Possibly this was when homicide arrived at the scene? 1 hr after fire/ambulance and police arrived?

 

[Satchie]

DBM

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

This is a repost, but I just went to check the TPS website agin.

11:45 am seems to be what the court records say and what the police and witnesses have said....but the TPS website still has the police responding an hour later:
Homicide #64/2017
Homicide #65/2017
View attachment 289920 View attachment 289921

The good news, hopefully, is that their cases are still listed under ‘active’, not ‘cold’.

Possibly this was when homicide arrived at

I think it is only trying to say the couple was not alive on the Friday morning, and likely did not sleep in the bed on the Thursday night (or possibly also the Wednesday night), because H would leave the bed UNmade on Fridays when she knew the housekeeper would be coming, so therefore, H had made it as per her usual daily routine, either on the Wednesday morning or Thursday morning. The housekeeper may not have known how neat or not-neat the bed may have been made by H on the 6/7 days when the housekeeper was NOT in attendance.

It was referenced in the ebook that housekeeper only came once per week (At 8:30 A.M., two people arrived on a clockwork schedule: a cleaning lady on her regular Friday visit… ebook pg 7)
---
"The housekeeper said she found that the bed in the master bedroom was made but a bit untidy and noticed that the sink Honey normally uses was dry.

It was unusual, she said, for the bed to be made on Fridays as Honey often left the bed unmade when she knew the housekeeper was coming."
It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far

I am not sure I gave this information much thought, early reports were that they were found with the clothing they had on Wed evening when they left Apotex, along with the winter coat (in a position where the sleeves are pulled behind them - possibly to place the arms in an easy position to remove the zip ties?)

One of the belts was reportedly retrieved from the master bedroom? (how they know this I do not know) , possibly the "tussled" (my wording) but made bed was from someone who sat on it or placed something on it. Agreed, the housekeeper would not have a clue how well the bed was normally made if the usual was to find the bed unmade on Friday mornings.

Sadly the bedding was most likely already removed from the bed if the cleaning had already started, police would have a very compromised crime scene from the get-go.

 

[deugirtni]

Possibly this was when homicide arrived at


I am not sure I gave this information much thought, early reports were that they were found with the clothing they had on Wed evening when they left Apotex, along with the winter coat (in a position where the sleeves are pulled behind them - possibly to place the arms in an easy position to remove the zip ties?)

One of the belts was reportedly retrieved from the master bedroom? (how they know this I do not know) , possibly the "tussled" (my wording) but made bed was from someone who sat on it or placed something on it. Agreed, the housekeeper would not have a clue how well the bed was normally made if the usual was to find the bed unmade on Friday mornings.

Sadly the bedding was most likely already removed from the bed if the cleaning had already started, police would have a very compromised crime scene from the get-go.

Yes compromised for sure. I remember reading early on that police had to ask the housekeeper to stop cleaning/sweeping.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

That's a good reminder, that perp/s possibly had to look for and find at least one belt. The housekeeper mentioned that the bedroom was more untidy than usual, that may reflect a search.

I've read about intruders using electrical cord (ripped off toaster or something) or a scarf/coatbelt from a front hall closet, but not so much searching bedroom closets and drawers for a belt. And, of course, if something was brought to restrain wrists, it seems extra rope could also be brought. Possibly a belt was brought, that would be hard to figure out: was it Barry's, Honey's or the perps?

If the second belt was taken from the bedroom, to me that seems very clear evidence it was staged m/s. To go to that trouble of searching the bedroom, that seems like a detail someone wouldn't make any effort for, unless they were trying to make it look like Barry's actions.

Good point! It is reported that the belts were a matching pair that "thrifty" Honey purchased at Canadian Tire (as a package of 2 for $10).

Who knew this? If Barry was wearing one, was the other one out in view? (I assume Honey's outfit did not have a belt or she had one on when found thus why we know about why they had matching belts that were used) Is it that easy for a stranger to just grab a belt and it is the exact same one? Is this the 2nd inference to being cheap? (the other being the staging to look like the statues made from recycling?) maybe there is a pattern in the few clues we are aware of?

It would be so interesting to know if the real estate viewing done via virtual tour - were the belts in view anywhere? Also, was the virtual tour taped, any photos taken during the tour? either the perp spent a lot of time in this home getting to know the place ( it is huge) or they have been there before, know they have an indoor pool in the basement that is rarely used. (they have an outdoor pool as well, most people wealthy or not do not have both)

Bobbi Pearl

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Possibly this was when homicide arrived at


I am not sure I gave this information much thought, early reports were that they were found with the clothing they had on Wed evening when they left Apotex, along with the winter coat (in a position where the sleeves are pulled behind them - possibly to place the arms in an easy position to remove the zip ties?)

One of the belts was reportedly retrieved from the master bedroom? (how they know this I do not know) , possibly the "tussled" (my wording) but made bed was from someone who sat on it or placed something on it. Agreed, the housekeeper would not have a clue how well the bed was normally made if the usual was to find the bed unmade on Friday mornings.

Sadly the bedding was most likely already removed from the bed if the cleaning had already started, police would have a very compromised crime scene from the get-go.

oops not sure what I did - trying to correct my response

↑
This is a repost, but I just went to check the TPS website agin.

11:45 am seems to be what the court records say and what the police and witnesses have said....but the TPS website still has the police responding an hour later:
Homicide #64/2017
Homicide #65/2017
View attachment 289920 View attachment 289921

The good news, hopefully, is that their cases are still listed under ‘active’, not ‘cold’.
Click to expand...

Corrected:
Possibly this was when homicide arrived at the scene, the fire/ambulance and patrol arrived an hour earlier?

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

There should've been a wealth of information on that neighbour's security video recording (as well as other neighbours who have NOT contacted KD!). KD has reported that they didn't think to look at prior to Thursday, since the bodies had been discovered on the Friday morning. I believe the recording was on a 7-day loop at which time it would start over again, IIRC. Therefore, the Wednesday should've been on there too, as well as all the activity on the Friday morning. At least as far as vehicles showing up, etc., such as the newspaper delivery van (assuming a van). My guess is the neighbours DID look at all of the days on that video, but are not at liberty to say what they saw. imo.

We hope so, they could have some depending on when they asked for it and how long the hard drive keeps the video. most in the are have more camera security then the Shermans had, I expect they asked every home that had an exterior camera within a large area to provide the same.

We have a camera on our driveway and front step and a targeted murder happened around the corner/ across the street from our home the police came and asked us within 48 hours for a specific timeframe of video, in our case it was a full day prior to the incident. Adding We do not face the home, but are on the same street.

Reports of how much "visual" evidence they have to me hints they received a lot of footage to painfully review second by second looking for inconsistencies or any clues.

 

[ldlager]

My recollect was the housekeeper thought it was odd the bed had been made that Friday morning because she said Honey left it unmade on the mornings she arrived (ie housekeepers job to make the bed). So if the bed was made Wednesday morning and not slept in again as the murders took place Wednesday night, the housekeeper would’ve noticed the bed was made on that Friday morning,

From the article: “...The bed was made but a bit untidy and the sink, which Honey uses in the morning, was dry,” Macatangay later told police. The bed was not made in the way Honey would normally make it and Macatangay wondered “if the Shermans went to sleep” the previous night. Regardless, there was no sign of them....”

I know what you are saying. It wold have been unusual the bed was made, and it was evidently made in an unusual way. There are so many pieces of contradictory info in this case, who really knows what is accurate?

 

[ldlager]

Only the Friday newspaper being on the doorstep and not yet collected by the occupant is of interest to me, since, as someone had pointed out long ago, there should've been two newspapers, both Thursday's and Friday's, but no mention of the Thursday's. I'm wondering what time of day the newspapers were delivered. (Often newspaper delivery people do their residential deliveries in the wee hours before people start waking up.) Also wondering if the killer(s) was therefore still present inside the house at the time when Thursday morning's paper was delivered, and took it with him, to add more confusion to TOD. I hope TPS interviewed the newspaper delivery people!

also we know someone went to the front door on Thursday. They could have taken or moved the paper from thursdat

 

[ldlager]

There should've been a wealth of information on that neighbour's security video recording (as well as other neighbours who have NOT contacted KD!). KD has reported that they didn't think to look at prior to Thursday, since the bodies had been discovered on the Friday morning. I believe the recording was on a 7-day loop at which time it would start over again, IIRC. Therefore, the Wednesday should've been on there too, as well as all the activity on the Friday morning. At least as far as vehicles showing up, etc., such as the newspaper delivery van (assuming a van). My guess is the neighbours DID look at all of the days on that video, but are not at liberty to say what they saw. imo.

would vehicles and people be clearly visible seeing it was dark and possibly snowing?

 

[MistyWaters]

would vehicles and people be clearly visible seeing it was dark and possibly snowing?

It indeed was very dark that night iirc, not even moonlight. It was right around a new moon phase with the cloud cover as well. It was also very close to winter solstice, the day of the year with the longest darkness, least daylight.

That said, it’s surprising how well CCTV which is night-camera enabled (infrared) is able to captures images in the dark.

 

[Satchie]

would vehicles and people be clearly visible seeing it was dark and possibly snowing?

This photo of the back of the house shows floodlights in the backyard. ETA, looks like tennis court, maybe not on regularly.


Google Image Result for https://beta.ctvnews.ca/content/dam/ctvnews/videos/axis/2019/3/19/1639205/_jcr_content/renditions/videothumbnail.1553055054386.jpg

Whoever it was had to pass by various cameras, so even if not clearly visible on Old Colony, LE would try to track them to a more illuminated camera.

For eg, the recent kidnapping of a woman from London, once they narrowed the time frame, there was a vague image of a stopped vehicle taken from a passing bus, LE must have tracked various similar vehicles, but the suspect's one was tracked all the way to the outskirts of London where a camera caught the license plate.

 

[MistyWaters]

This photo of the back of the house shows floodlights in the backyard. ETA, looks like tennis court, maybe not on regularly.
View attachment 289996

Google Image Result for https://beta.ctvnews.ca/content/dam/ctvnews/videos/axis/2019/3/19/1639205/_jcr_content/renditions/videothumbnail.1553055054386.jpg

Whoever it was had to pass by various cameras, so even if not clearly visible on Old Colony, LE would try to track them to a more illuminated camera.

For eg, the recent kidnapping of a woman from London, once they narrowed the time frame, there was a vague image of a stopped vehicle taken from a passing bus, LE must have tracked various similar vehicles, but the suspect's one was tracked all the way to the outskirts of London where a camera caught the license plate.

Yes it’s remarkable how CCTV analysis can offer leads. TPS reportedly collected four terabytes of CCTV video. Google tells me just one terabyte equates to 400-500 hours. Then to track movement of a possible suspect vehicle from video to video, that must be extraordinarily painstaking work.

 

[al66pine]

Mary Mentioned BS' IOU Payable to HS' Mother. Why?

Re post. Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15" Many lined up at the ‘Bank of Barry’ Sherman: Inside the $10 billion succession battle
[Re Mary/Honey's Sister] " ... She said ... Recently... she discovered an IOU Barry wrote to her mother in the 1970s for monies advanced when he was starting out in business. It is an IOU she has not been able to collect on."

@dotr sbm bbm

... 'seed money' from the 1970s from HSs parents; I'm certain it wasn't like a few million...Why would MS think that SHE should collect on an IOU to her MOTHER, nearly 50 yrs later??....

@JDG sbm bbm Thanks for your post. First, I'm not sure who ^ "she" in first ^ post refers to - Mary or Mary's Mother?
If Mary stated that she herself had tried to collect it--- when, how? Mary’s phone calls, in-person convo's w BS? What is the evd/documentation of her attempts? If Mary tried to collect thru legal proceeding, was it dismissed by court, or ???

If loan had not been repaid, forgiven, etc, when Mother died, presumably still holding the IOU/note, then in probate ct, or other ct proceeding, was IOU/note listed in doc's filed w ct, to collect w other debts owed her/her estate (or earlier w HS' Father's estate)?
If so, then was IOU/note treated as an advance to HS & deducted from HS's share of Mother's/parents' estate, at least if HS also signed as borrower?

Not clear to me that Mary told journo KD, that she thought she (Mary) was entitled to collect. Maybe Mary mentioned the IOU/note to journo KD to convey unfavorable impression about BS, not to say she (Mary) thought that she herself tried to collect at any point. Maybe she just wanted to criticize BS after his death? Seems doing so while he was living might have been harmful to her financial health.

Lastly, did journo KD pose these questions to Mary? If so, did she evade, refuse to answer?
Not concluding anything, just considering possibilities and unknowns. my2ct.

 

[ldlager]

Mary is entitled to the money. She deserves it. She earned it. Like the movie- It’s All About Mary.
MOO

 

[WINDSOR]

Bobbi Pearl stated........"either the perp spent a lot of time in this home getting to know the place ( it is huge) or they have been there before," (my underline)

MistyWaters stated...." Yes it’s remarkable how CCTV analysis can offer leads. TPS reportedly collected four terabytes of CCTV video. Google tells me just one terabyte equates to 400-500 hours."

The fact the assailants used belts, to stage the victims, implies to me, some lack of preparation or pre-meditation. On the other hand the use of and removal from the scene of zip-ties implies preparation and pre-meditation. This issue confuses me. Was it an impulse crime or not?
If it was impulse, maybe the zip-ties were something the assailants, had in their vehicle for another purpose, and when things got tense with the Shermans, the assailants retreived the zip-ties. being relatively astute, they took the zip-ties with them when they left, as leaving zip-ties would point to intruders.

It would not be the first time in the annals of crime, where an attempt at resolution of differences, ended in homicide.

 

[Sphinx]

It’s possible.

I think one unusual element of this murder case is it involved substantial up-close contact and touching of the victims, including both the strangulation and body repositioning.

That stands out IMO to be very different from say, a shooting or stabbing, how the majority of murders are committed. No doubt of interest to professional profilers.

I believe an attempt was made to make the double homicide look like murder/suicide, so that there would not be an in depth police investigation. That scenario would also probably allow for a fairly quick and easy settlement of the estate, with the heirs receiving their inheritances. In order to achieve the appearance of murder/suicide carried out by Barry, it would be necessary to handle and position the bodies. IMO

 

[Sphinx]

Bobbi Pearl stated........"either the perp spent a lot of time in this home getting to know the place ( it is huge) or they have been there before," (my underline)

MistyWaters stated...." Yes it’s remarkable how CCTV analysis can offer leads. TPS reportedly collected four terabytes of CCTV video. Google tells me just one terabyte equates to 400-500 hours."

The fact the assailants used belts, to stage the victims, implies to me, some lack of preparation or pre-meditation. On the other hand the use of and removal from the scene of zip-ties implies preparation and pre-meditation. This issue confuses me. Was it an impulse crime or not?
If it was impulse, maybe the zip-ties were something the assailants, had in their vehicle for another purpose, and when things got tense with the Shermans, the assailants retreived the zip-ties. being relatively astute, they took the zip-ties with them when they left, as leaving zip-ties would point to intruders.

It would not be the first time in the annals of crime, where an attempt at resolution of differences, ended in homicide.

I think the killers searched for, and used another belt, matching the one Barry was wearing because part of the staging of a murder/suicide, was to make it look like Barry chose the belt that was in his closet. They may have even thought that it would be like perfectionist Barry to make sure the belts were a matching pair, and also used because they were a gift from Honey. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Bobbi Pearl stated........"either the perp spent a lot of time in this home getting to know the place ( it is huge) or they have been there before," (my underline)

MistyWaters stated...." Yes it’s remarkable how CCTV analysis can offer leads. TPS reportedly collected four terabytes of CCTV video. Google tells me just one terabyte equates to 400-500 hours."

The fact the assailants used belts, to stage the victims, implies to me, some lack of preparation or pre-meditation. On the other hand the use of and removal from the scene of zip-ties implies preparation and pre-meditation. This issue confuses me. Was it an impulse crime or not?
If it was impulse, maybe the zip-ties were something the assailants, had in their vehicle for another purpose, and when things got tense with the Shermans, the assailants retreived the zip-ties. being relatively astute, they took the zip-ties with them when they left, as leaving zip-ties would point to intruders.

It would not be the first time in the annals of crime, where an attempt at resolution of differences, ended in homicide.

Whether LE believes it’s an impulse crime or not may be dependant on how the killer/s entered the home. Did he/they enter through the skylights, use a copied key from the real estate lockbox, walk right in through the allegedly open basement door, enter through the garage as Barry drive his car in, or ring the front doorbell?.... All these possibilities and more have been discussed but we really don’t know.