CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #19

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No_Stone_Unturned said:
Here again BOUND TOGETHER



Their wrists showed evidence that they had been, at one point, bound together. No rope or other materials that could have been used to tie their wrists were discovered, the source told CBC Toronto.


———————
Maybe I’m interpreting it wrong. Maybe bound together = right and left wrists were bound to each other.
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It was incredibly poorly written. They meant each of B&H's two wrists, were bound together.. not that B&H's wrists were bound together.
 
deugirtni said:
Just some food for thought....

So WHY is it NOT a case where there is anything forensically at the scene and it's NOT one of those DNA cases where they're gonna discover something?

The killer was in the Sherman home, possibly for quite awhile... possibly in various areas of the home.. being close and personal with his victims, not one, but two of them!.. so why would there NOT be forensic evidence including DNA? Is it because the killer was just THAT good that he perfectly took every precaution, covering every inch of his body to ensure no skin or hair cells were shed? Or is it because any DNA, fingerprints, etc., at the crimescene could've been there from that night, or from awhile before that, because the killer was known to have been in the home at some point(s)?
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I am speculating there was lots of DNA and similar forensic evidence at the Sherman home when checked.
1)Some of it was from family members, who over the previous months had been in the home.
2)Some of it was from staff and guests who had legitimate reasons for being in the home.
3)And possibly there maybe some unknown DNA that the TPS collected and has not advised the public about.

There is nothing to say that someone in the first two groups was not present at the murders.

This unknown DNA might have been cross-referenced with US and Canadian data banks, but has not had any hits. This is very possible if the DNA contributor is from overseas.

I am sure the TPS very much would like to compare the Night Walker's DNA, with what (assuming they have) they retrieved from the Sherman home.

Of course the killer(s) could have worn some sort of protective suit to minimize the leaving of evidence
Cleanroom suit - Wikipedia
 
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WINDSOR said:
I am speculating there was lots of DNA and similar forensic evidence at the Sherman home when checked.
1)Some of it was from family members, who over the previous months had been in the home.
2)Some of it was from staff and guests who had legitimate reasons for being in the home.
3)And possibly there maybe some unknown DNA that the TPS collected and has not advised the public about.

There is nothing to say that someone in the first two groups was not present at the murders.

This unknown DNA might have been cross-referenced with US and Canadian data banks, but has not had any hits. This is very possible if the DNA contributor is from overseas.

I am sure the TPS very much would like to compare the Night Walker's DNA, with what (assuming they have) they retrieved from the Sherman home.

Of course the killer(s) could have worn some sort of protective suit to minimize the leaving of evidence
Cleanroom suit - Wikipedia
Click to expand...

I agree with all of your points and I’d personally add that the chlorine environment of the pool room may have been a factor in analyzing any biological samples they found, imo.

I think the killer removed the ligatures from the bodies and the scene for a number of reasons, one of them being to remove/wash any trace evidence that may have transferred onto the victims when he used them.
 
The pool & chlorine idea is a sound idea BUT the killer(s) had to walk through many rooms of the house to get the bodies to the pool. Surely they must have left DNA samples somewhere in their travels. Entering and leaving the home. Doing the killings. Going to get Barry's other belt. Anywhere and everywhere. Unless they wore protective suits.
 
No_Stone_Unturned said:
911 caller said killed


www.toronto.com

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

Even as friends and associates of Barry and Honey Sherman insisted they were murdered, Toronto police continued to pursue the theory that Barry killed Honey, then himself, newly released police
www.toronto.com www.toronto.com
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Yes.

It’s a relevant question to ask about the 911 calls and there are at least four connected to this case. One on Thursday traced to a neighbour who did not make the call, and at least three calls to 911 on Friday the 15th after the bodies were discovered.

The timeline which I should update, or hopefully others will add to, is useful when looking for answers.
 
Lexiintoronto said:
I agree with all of your points and I’d personally add that the chlorine environment of the pool room may have been a factor in analyzing any biological samples they found, imo.

I think the killer removed the ligatures from the bodies and the scene for a number of reasons, one of them being to remove/wash any trace evidence that may have transferred onto the victims when he used them.
Click to expand...
If zip ties were used, the killer would have needed to handle them and pull on them in order to tighten them.
 
deugirtni said:
This could potentially be deceiving. It's possible the top pic is showing the gurney being wheeled INTO the house (notice the blanket(?) on top is a diff color and looks like a bunch of blankets on the gurney, and no booties.. while the bottom pic, the guys look more solemn, and have the booties on.. and appear to have a corpse on the gurney covered with something different.
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Even if so, why were they allowed to enter the home without booties?
 
WINDSOR said:
I am speculating there was lots of DNA and similar forensic evidence at the Sherman home when checked.
1)Some of it was from family members, who over the previous months had been in the home.
2)Some of it was from staff and guests who had legitimate reasons for being in the home.
3)And possibly there maybe some unknown DNA that the TPS collected and has not advised the public about.

There is nothing to say that someone in the first two groups was not present at the murders.

This unknown DNA might have been cross-referenced with US and Canadian data banks, but has not had any hits. This is very possible if the DNA contributor is from overseas.

I am sure the TPS very much would like to compare the Night Walker's DNA, with what (assuming they have) they retrieved from the Sherman home.

Of course the killer(s) could have worn some sort of protective suit to minimize the leaving of evidence
Cleanroom suit - Wikipedia
Click to expand...
Yet police evidently waited months before sampling the DNA of people who could reasonably have accessed the house before, in order to exclude them. Like family members, service providers, the realtors and their clients, etc. Plus remember that the investigators hired by the family claimed they found many DNA and other items of potential evidence like palm prints and hair samples that the police supposedly “missed” in their investigation.
 
Lexiintoronto said:
There’s a timeline here: Canada - Barry & Honey Sherman, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 MEDIA, MAPS & TIMELINE *NO DISCUSSION*

If you check the timeline, or google, you’ll find we know what was said by *one* caller to 911 on Friday the 15th. She described the Shermans as being found ‘murdered’.
Click to expand...
I still don’t understand why it took 90 minutes (or thereabouts) for the people who found the bodies to call 911. I would be calling right away. And I still wonder if anyone else visited the house during that 90 minutes. I know this has been discussed before, but it still doesn’t add up for me.
 
ldlager said:
I still don’t understand why it took 90 minutes (or thereabouts) for the people who found the bodies to call 911. I would be calling right away. And I still wonder if anyone else visited the house during that 90 minutes. I know this has been discussed before, but it still doesn’t add up for me.
Click to expand...
I believe when ordinary people come upon a horrible scene that is inconsistent with their experience, they have to stop and think. They have to deal with a number of conflicting emotions. These range from, OMG!, What Happened? Am I at risk? Who should I call?
As well, staff who on a daily basis work to instructions, will pause and evaluate who should they contact. Remember the Sherman staff was likely required to be circumspect and show great discretion in all matters. They would not want to make a mistake, so would pause and seek guidance. This all takes time, especially if there are several people involved in the discovery.

Discovering a dead body(s) can be unnerving, especially if you know the people.
 
ldlager said:
I still don’t understand why it took 90 minutes (or thereabouts) for the people who found the bodies to call 911. I would be calling right away. And I still wonder if anyone else visited the house during that 90 minutes. I know this has been discussed before, but it still doesn’t add up for me.
Click to expand...
  • 10:45 am (time approximate) Sherman real estate agent Elise Stern arrives to find two prospective buyers and their agents waiting to tour the home. They start upstairs and make their way to the basement where there is an indoor pool.
  • Stern leads the way down the basement corridor to the pool area. She finds a pair of gloves and a home inspection report on the floor, close to the doors leading out to the underground garage. She picks them up and places them on a (ledge or table).
  • Stern enters the pool area and glancing in, sees what appears to be the the Shermans, motionless, in semi-seated position with belts attached to their necks, tied to a pool railing, and facing a wall.
  • Stern quickly ushers the group upstairs. Stern is unsure about what she saw.
  • (Time unspecified) As Stern and the group walk upstairs, a gardener arrives who routinely waters the Shermans’ indoor plants.
  • (Time unspecified) The prospective buyers and their agents left before first responders arrived. They were unsure as to what they witnessed (the agent is quoted as saying it looked like a ‘fake’ murder scene or Halloween display, and the clients were upset as they considered it to be a bad omen.)
  • Stern tells the housekeeper about finding the Shermans, and asks her to check the pool, but she is too afraid to do so.
  • The gardener says she is not afraid, and goes down to check, and finds the Shermans obviously deceased.
  • While the gardener is downstairs, Stern calls Honey’s sister Mary.
  • [Note: This is from page 10 of KD’s book—KD writes that Stern called Mary, and Mary told her to hang up and call 911. Mary then calls the Sherman children, reaching Jonathon first. Donovan writes that there is a delay of 90 minutes from the time that the bodies are found to when 911 is called....however, according to the court documents that were released after his book was published, the 90 minute estimate may be incorrect.]
Above is from the timeline. I know KD initially wrote that there was a 90-minute delay, but when he later obtained court documents and witness statements they don’t support that claim, imo.

I’m like you, though. I don’t understand why 911 wasn’t immediately called. Even with the witness statements you can see there was a delay and a call made to MS before 911 was ever called.

Add to that two other people called 911. One was a person who was not even at the scene.
 
deugirtni said:
This could potentially be deceiving. It's possible the top pic is showing the gurney being wheeled INTO the house (notice the blanket(?) on top is a diff color and looks like a bunch of blankets on the gurney, and no booties.. while the bottom pic, the guys look more solemn, and have the booties on.. and appear to have a corpse on the gurney covered with something different.
Click to expand...
I interpreted that they took 1 body out, returned for the second and did not want to enter with wet booties and make more marks when the re-entered the front doors. They should have removed them at the door before stepping outside.

I questioned why use the front door to remove the bodies, they had to take them up flights of stairs, they could easily have used the garage - driven in or even the garage ramp to roll the gurney up. Why if they thought M/S from initial glance - would they be concerned about preserving evidence in the garage area? Instead they took them from the furthest point in the rear of the home up and out the front. Someone had a valid and logical reason why they used the front, it was to preserve evidence I believe they posted, but I think too travelling all through the home would not preserve it.

IMO LE have physical evidence we are not aware of, they spent weeks in the home before handing it over.
 
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