CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #19

[Bobbi Pearl]

So, to me, it looks like the cop told them to put booties on if for no other reason to look good for the media? They are looking right at the cop when they are without booties.

May be the cop was criticizing them for not having them on, it would better explain the looks on the attendants faces.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

• 10:45 am (time approximate) Sherman real estate agent Elise Stern arrives to find two prospective buyers and their agents waiting to tour the home. They start upstairs and make their way to the basement where there is an indoor pool.
• Stern leads the way down the basement corridor to the pool area. She finds a pair of gloves and a home inspection report on the floor, close to the doors leading out to the underground garage. She picks them up and places them on a (ledge or table).
• Stern enters the pool area and glancing in, sees what appears to be the the Shermans, motionless, in semi-seated position with belts attached to their necks, tied to a pool railing, and facing a wall.
• Stern quickly ushers the group upstairs. Stern is unsure about what she saw.
• (Time unspecified) As Stern and the group walk upstairs, a gardener arrives who routinely waters the Shermans’ indoor plants.
• (Time unspecified) The prospective buyers and their agents left before first responders arrived. They were unsure as to what they witnessed (the agent is quoted as saying it looked like a ‘fake’ murder scene or Halloween display, and the clients were upset as they considered it to be a bad omen.)
• Stern tells the housekeeper about finding the Shermans, and asks her to check the pool, but she is too afraid to do so.
• The gardener says she is not afraid, and goes down to check, and finds the Shermans obviously deceased.
• While the gardener is downstairs, Stern calls Honey’s sister Mary.
• [Note: This is from page 10 of KD’s book—KD writes that Stern called Mary, and Mary told her to hang up and call 911. Mary then calls the Sherman children, reaching Jonathon first. Donovan writes that there is a delay of 90 minutes from the time that the bodies are found to when 911 is called....however, according to the court documents that were released after his book was published, the 90 minute estimate may be incorrect.]

Above is from the timeline. I know KD initially wrote that there was a 90-minute delay, but when he later obtained court documents and witness statements they don’t support that claim, imo.

I’m like you, though. I don’t understand why 911 wasn’t immediately called. Even with the witness statements you can see there was a delay and a call made to MS before 911 was ever called.

Add to that two other people called 911. One was a person who was not even at the scene.

"They start upstairs and make their way to the basement where there is an indoor pool."

What about the holes in the bedroom wall? thought to be a punch holes? The touring couple nor any of the realtors mentioned they saw that? I wonder if that was done by family after they finally got the home? it was months later by the time they had the access.

"During his visit a year later, the Urbex man told the Star he noticed “walls in the master bedroom with holes punched through,” leading him to conclude that “somebody was looking for something.” Drawers were upended, their contents strewn on the floor."

An ‘urban explorer’ entered Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before demolition and saw papers that ‘looked like evidence’

One Saturday afternoon in May of 2019, when nobody was looking, a man slipped under the garage door of the late Barry and Honey Sherman’s home.

www.toronto.com

** I assume LE went through this home like custom agents rip apart your car, it seems it was they who emptied the closets and left all the clothes on the floor, why if you think M/S, what were they looking for?

"To put the state of the home in context, Toronto police forensic officers spent six weeks going through the house. After it was returned to the family, the Shermans’ private detectives and a retired forensic officer spent several days going through it. Greenspan, who himself toured the home, told the Star it was in “disarray,” with clothes that had been removed from drawers and closets left piled on the floor. In the Sub Zero fridge in the kitchen, Greenspan said he found a bottle of Moishes pickles and not much else."

** I have had another thought about the holes in the walls, may be the urbex man that shared his experience was not the only stranger to go through the place before it was demolished? Otherwise why put holes in the walls?

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Yet police evidently waited months before sampling the DNA of people who could reasonably have accessed the house before, in order to exclude them. Like family members, service providers, the realtors and their clients, etc. Plus remember that the investigators hired by the family claimed they found many DNA and other items of potential evidence like palm prints and hair samples that the police supposedly “missed” in their investigation.

I have often wondered how the private investigators knew this evidence was actually missed. Potentially LE already took samples, they are not reporting their findings to the PI team, this is not a two way street open investigation. It is the PI team that are to turn over what they have, not discuss it together with LE.

I believe that in todays procedures they video tape and photograph every inch of the crime scene so all evidence is preserved.

 

[ldlager]

I have often wondered how the private investigators knew this evidence was actually missed. Potentially LE already took samples, they are not reporting their findings to the PI team, this is not a two way street open investigation. It is the PI team that are to turn over what they have, not discuss it together with LE.

I believe that in todays procedures they video tape and photograph every inch of the crime scene so all evidence is preserved.

I would think for palmprints and fingerprints, LE would dust the surfaces and the PI's could tell where LE had dusted and where they hadn't. As for hairs and fibers vacuumed up by the PI team in the pool area, I guess if LE had vacuumed the area there wouldnt be those hairs or fibers left?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

• 10:45 am (time approximate) Sherman real estate agent Elise Stern arrives to find two prospective buyers and their agents waiting to tour the home. They start upstairs and make their way to the basement where there is an indoor pool.
• Stern leads the way down the basement corridor to the pool area. She finds a pair of gloves and a home inspection report on the floor, close to the doors leading out to the underground garage. She picks them up and places them on a (ledge or table).
• Stern enters the pool area and glancing in, sees what appears to be the the Shermans, motionless, in semi-seated position with belts attached to their necks, tied to a pool railing, and facing a wall.
• Stern quickly ushers the group upstairs. Stern is unsure about what she saw.
• (Time unspecified) As Stern and the group walk upstairs, a gardener arrives who routinely waters the Shermans’ indoor plants.
• (Time unspecified) The prospective buyers and their agents left before first responders arrived. They were unsure as to what they witnessed (the agent is quoted as saying it looked like a ‘fake’ murder scene or Halloween display, and the clients were upset as they considered it to be a bad omen.)
• Stern tells the housekeeper about finding the Shermans, and asks her to check the pool, but she is too afraid to do so.
• The gardener says she is not afraid, and goes down to check, and finds the Shermans obviously deceased.
• While the gardener is downstairs, Stern calls Honey’s sister Mary.
• [Note: This is from page 10 of KD’s book—KD writes that Stern called Mary, and Mary told her to hang up and call 911. Mary then calls the Sherman children, reaching Jonathon first. Donovan writes that there is a delay of 90 minutes from the time that the bodies are found to when 911 is called....however, according to the court documents that were released after his book was published, the 90 minute estimate may be incorrect.]

Above is from the timeline. I know KD initially wrote that there was a 90-minute delay, but when he later obtained court documents and witness statements they don’t support that claim, imo.

I’m like you, though. I don’t understand why 911 wasn’t immediately called. Even with the witness statements you can see there was a delay and a call made to MS before 911 was ever called.

Add to that two other people called 911. One was a person who was not even at the scene.

Thank you for this! I hope I never have cardiac arrest while in this group of people!
1. Realtor was too freaked out to dial 911
2. Thé housekeeper wouldn’t call 911
3. Thank God for the gardener who finally called 911

This Is crazy.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

"They start upstairs and make their way to the basement where there is an indoor pool."

What about the holes in the bedroom wall? thought to be a punch holes? The touring couple nor any of the realtors mentioned they saw that? I wonder if that was done by family after they finally got the home? it was months later by the time they had the access.

"During his visit a year later, the Urbex man told the Star he noticed “walls in the master bedroom with holes punched through,” leading him to conclude that “somebody was looking for something.” Drawers were upended, their contents strewn on the floor."

An ‘urban explorer’ entered Barry and Honey Sherman’s home before demolition and saw papers that ‘looked like evidence’

One Saturday afternoon in May of 2019, when nobody was looking, a man slipped under the garage door of the late Barry and Honey Sherman’s home.

www.toronto.com

** I assume LE went through this home like custom agents rip apart your car, it seems it was they who emptied the closets and left all the clothes on the floor, why if you think M/S, what were they looking for?

"To put the state of the home in context, Toronto police forensic officers spent six weeks going through the house. After it was returned to the family, the Shermans’ private detectives and a retired forensic officer spent several days going through it. Greenspan, who himself toured the home, told the Star it was in “disarray,” with clothes that had been removed from drawers and closets left piled on the floor. In the Sub Zero fridge in the kitchen, Greenspan said he found a bottle of Moishes pickles and not much else."

** I have had another thought about the holes in the walls, may be the urbex man that shared his experience was not the only stranger to go through the place before it was demolished? Otherwise why put holes in the walls?

My guess is that LE may have made at least some of the holes. If they find a possible blood smear or print, they sometimes cut a section of drywall out and take the whole thing to the lab.

LE mentioned they took a lot of evidence from the home including ‘bulk items’, which could mean sections of carpeting or drywall as two examples. (Pool cover, maybe?)

Greenspan should know that when police go through a crime scene, they don’t put things back in order. When a home is a crime scene and the police have gone through your house in that way, they can refer you to a specialized cleaning crew that can help you restore the home.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I would think for palmprints and fingerprints, LE would dust the surfaces and the PI's could tell where LE had dusted and where they hadn't. As for hairs and fibers vacuumed up by the PI team in the pool area, I guess if LE had vacuumed the area there wouldnt be those hairs or fibers left?

The Greenspan first saw the home 6 weeks after the police first started to process the scene. I think LE would have scoured the pool room for evidence first, including vacuuming for evidence.

Then they’d have crime scene investigators in the room re-creating the murders, working with a number of LE going in and out.

I think what Greenspan’s team vacuumed up was possible dirt and hairs from LE, imo.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I would think for palmprints and fingerprints, LE would dust the surfaces and the PI's could tell where LE had dusted and where they hadn't. As for hairs and fibers vacuumed up by the PI team in the pool area, I guess if LE had vacuumed the area there wouldnt be those hairs or fibers left?

True. We are all human, things can be missed, thought not to be important at the time. IMO 6 weeks before the PI's got access that spot where they now see a finger print in dust, was not left before Dec 15th.

I find it hard to accept that after removing the bodies and 6 weeks of people walking in, out and around the pool room (or any room in the house) that those hairs and fibers were from on or before Dec 12th.

I wondered from the start why the PI team cam in like a RAM, if they truly wanted to work with LE in parallel to assist the investigation, why criticize them on your first media interview, make comments knowing that no one can respond. IMO it was to bolster their authority in the public eye.

 

[ldlager]

True. We are all human, things can be missed, thought not to be important at the time. IMO 6 weeks before the PI's got access that spot where they now see a finger print in dust, was not left before Dec 15th.

I find it hard to accept that after removing the bodies and 6 weeks of people walking in, out and around the pool room (or any room in the house) that those hairs and fibers were from on or before Dec 12th.

I wondered from the start why the PI team cam in like a RAM, if they truly wanted to work with LE in parallel to assist the investigation, why criticize them on your first media interview, make comments knowing that no one can respond. IMO it was to bolster their authority in the public eye.

We don't know how useful the PI information was to the police, that's for sure. But as an independent (ie non publicly paid, non police) party brought into the house after 6 weeks, their pronouncements certainly cast doubt on the quality of the police work. Their motivations remain unexplained, except perhaps to those that believe they were brought in to change the police conclusions away from M/S to M/M.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Not just my relationship with Barry+Honey. More to do with my phone call with Greenspin, meeting with Tommy Boy Klatt, 4 hr Q+A with Price and a discussion my friend had with a retired TPS homicide detective a few days after the body’s were found.
I won’t share again. The lawyer Greenspin got paid to “spin” a narrative and you’ve all bought it.

Like most people following the case, we’re reading the truth as it unfolds in respectable MSM and the records that Kevin Donovan (for the most part) has been uncovering.

 

[deugirtni]

Even if so, why were they allowed to enter the home without booties?

Because they could've been told as soon as inside to put the booties on.. it doesn't make sense for them to put them on prior to entering the home, because that would add contamination?

 

[deugirtni]

I would think for palmprints and fingerprints, LE would dust the surfaces and the PI's could tell where LE had dusted and where they hadn't. As for hairs and fibers vacuumed up by the PI team in the pool area, I guess if LE had vacuumed the area there wouldnt be those hairs or fibers left?

Agreed on the dusting - but if a home is chalk full of prints.... is it SOP for LE to take every single finger and palm print? Or just a sampling of them in the areas of note? Or what? Is it possible they took what they believed to be an appropriate sampling in each of the areas of interest.... and whichever additional ones that may have been left untouched were the ones the investigative team pounced on when they showed up? I feel now that the whole private investigation was more of a PR thing than an actual call for assistance. I don't think it was initially intended that way by everyone, except for possibly one. It feels to me, so imo, that the team was out to find fault with the cops and their investigation, right from the get-go.. and why? We know a lot more now than we did when the PI team was trashing LE and their investigation. It all seems to make some kind of sense to me now. imo.

For the vacuuming of fibers.. we'd have to assume that to be relevant, the vacuuming would need to be done as soon as possible, before contamination occurs as much as possible.... and LE had the house for six weeks.. so.. if there were things to vacuum after six weeks.. who's to say the stuff isn't from cops' shoes and clothing fibers and skin and hair and whatever.. ?? Six weeks seems a long time to have things accumulating when the home was full of cops?

Which kind of leads me to wonder....... obviously, the sooner the bodies get examined, the better.. but as well, forensics of the crimescene(s) would need to be gathered as soon as possible, to prevent as much contamination as possible... wouldn't it have interfered with the gathering of forensics for the bodies to have been removed so quickly? Police were called at 11:45am, and the bodies were removed reportedly at 7:20pm when the 'morgue wagon' showed up. Did 7.5 hours allow enough time for proper forensics to take place (when did forensics arrive after police let them know there was a need for them? How clean was the crimescene kept prior to their arrival? How many cops were checking things out all around the crimescene? etc? ) before moving the bodies? Not sure how that stuff works?

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

 

[Sanz]

(CNN)The deaths of Canadian billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman have been shrouded in mystery from the beginning.

On this week's anniversary of the killings, the Shermans' son offered an additional $25 million for information leading to an arrest. The reward is now $35 million.

Five years ago, a billionaire couple was found strangled beside their swimming pool. Their family is offering $35 million to help catch their killer

The deaths of Canadian billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman have been shrouded in mystery from the beginning.

amp.cnn.com

 

[WINDSOR]

Thank you for this! I hope I never have cardiac arrest while in this group of people!
1. Realtor was too freaked out to dial 911
2. Thé housekeeper wouldn’t call 911
3. Thank God for the gardener who finally called 911

This Is crazy.

When you find people obviously dead, maybe the sense of urgency slackens?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

When you find people obviously dead, maybe the sense of urgency slackens?

Did any of these people attempt to touch the bodies? Or was that physically impossible?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Has this been completely discounted

WARMINGTON: Cops' probe into 2017 Sherman murders 'very active'

Two years have passed since the strange murders of Honey and Barry Sherman, but for Toronto Police this is no cold case.

torontosun.com

Is a link possible between a New York City doctors strange “suicide” that looks more like a murder and the weird slaying of the Shermans that was also staged as a potential suicide - asks a friend of the billionaires? Both tried to help the people of Haiti. Now they are all dead

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Agreed on the dusting - but if a home is chalk full of prints.... is it SOP for LE to take every single finger and palm print? Or just a sampling of them in the areas of note? Or what? Is it possible they took what they believed to be an appropriate sampling in each of the areas of interest.... and whichever additional ones that may have been left untouched were the ones the investigative team pounced on when they showed up? I feel now that the whole private investigation was more of a PR thing than an actual call for assistance. I don't think it was initially intended that way by everyone, except for possibly one. It feels to me, so imo, that the team was out to find fault with the cops and their investigation, right from the get-go.. and why? We know a lot more now than we did when the PI team was trashing LE and their investigation. It all seems to make some kind of sense to me now. imo.

For the vacuuming of fibers.. we'd have to assume that to be relevant, the vacuuming would need to be done as soon as possible, before contamination occurs as much as possible.... and LE had the house for six weeks.. so.. if there were things to vacuum after six weeks.. who's to say the stuff isn't from cops' shoes and clothing fibers and skin and hair and whatever.. ?? Six weeks seems a long time to have things accumulating when the home was full of cops?

Which kind of leads me to wonder....... obviously, the sooner the bodies get examined, the better.. but as well, forensics of the crimescene(s) would need to be gathered as soon as possible, to prevent as much contamination as possible... wouldn't it have interfered with the gathering of forensics for the bodies to have been removed so quickly? Police were called at 11:45am, and the bodies were removed reportedly at 7:20pm when the 'morgue wagon' showed up. Did 7.5 hours allow enough time for proper forensics to take place (when did forensics arrive after police let them know there was a need for them? How clean was the crimescene kept prior to their arrival? How many cops were checking things out all around the crimescene? etc? ) before moving the bodies? Not sure how that stuff works?

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

Anecdotal again, but when my friend was found deceased, the first delay for the officers was waiting for a pathologist from the coroner’s office. (They did their very best to arrive quickly. They were great throughout the entire investigation.) The time between the call made for them and then leaving the scene was about four hours.

When the pathologist arrived, they took some immediate samples that they hoped would aid in determining time of death. They took other samples (biological and ground samples etc) and did some preliminary investigations.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Agreed on the dusting - but if a home is chalk full of prints.... is it SOP for LE to take every single finger and palm print? Or just a sampling of them in the areas of note? Or what? Is it possible they took what they believed to be an appropriate sampling in each of the areas of interest.... and whichever additional ones that may have been left untouched were the ones the investigative team pounced on when they showed up? I feel now that the whole private investigation was more of a PR thing than an actual call for assistance. I don't think it was initially intended that way by everyone, except for possibly one. It feels to me, so imo, that the team was out to find fault with the cops and their investigation, right from the get-go.. and why? We know a lot more now than we did when the PI team was trashing LE and their investigation. It all seems to make some kind of sense to me now. imo.

For the vacuuming of fibers.. we'd have to assume that to be relevant, the vacuuming would need to be done as soon as possible, before contamination occurs as much as possible.... and LE had the house for six weeks.. so.. if there were things to vacuum after six weeks.. who's to say the stuff isn't from cops' shoes and clothing fibers and skin and hair and whatever.. ?? Six weeks seems a long time to have things accumulating when the home was full of cops?

Which kind of leads me to wonder....... obviously, the sooner the bodies get examined, the better.. but as well, forensics of the crimescene(s) would need to be gathered as soon as possible, to prevent as much contamination as possible... wouldn't it have interfered with the gathering of forensics for the bodies to have been removed so quickly? Police were called at 11:45am, and the bodies were removed reportedly at 7:20pm when the 'morgue wagon' showed up. Did 7.5 hours allow enough time for proper forensics to take place (when did forensics arrive after police let them know there was a need for them? How clean was the crimescene kept prior to their arrival? How many cops were checking things out all around the crimescene? etc? ) before moving the bodies? Not sure how that stuff works?

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

I am assuming all Canadian police follow these guidelines.

Acts, Regulations and Policy - Canada.ca

Find the acts, bills, regulations and policy, including Commissioner's Directives, that govern the work of the Correctional Service of Canada.

www.csc-scc.gc.ca

Protecting the Scene of a Crime​

1. A possible scene of a crime must be treated with the utmost care so as to not contaminate or destroy evidence. The following minimum protocol will be adhered to in order to protect the scene of a crime:
   1. establish a perimeter to protect the scene
   2. evacuate non-involved persons
   3. prevent unauthorized persons from entering the crime scene or contaminating any evidence
   4. prevent any damage or further damage
   5. maintain an accurate "scene log" to record the names and the times of everyone who enters and/or leaves the scene
   6. for court purposes, record names and times of any individuals who enter the scene who do not have a bona fide requirement to do so and advise the Correctional Manager of this fact
   7. maintain control of the scene until relieved by a designated officer or by police
   8. when another officer arrives to assume control of the scene, verbally confirm this as a fact and record the time and the person's name and rank.

from the above link, this was interesting see #12 and 13:

Preservation of Evidence​

1. The following steps will be taken to preserve evidence:
   1. do not move anything unless absolutely necessary
   2. to the extent possible, avoid contaminating evidence
   3. photograph or video record the scene as well as individual objects before moving anything
   4. protect forensic evidence from the elements
   5. record and identify any evidence found or moved (i.e. what, where, by whom and when)
   6. maintain evidence in possession of the person who seized it until it can be handed over to police or properly stored using the Contraband/Unauthorized Item Seizure Tag (CSC/SCC 0482)
   7. keep each piece of evidence separate from other pieces of evidence in order to prevent cross-contamination
   8. use a paper bag for blood-stained items
   9. isolate witnesses from each other and from other persons, and record their statements on the Statement/Observation Report (CSC/SCC 0875) (see Instructions (CSC/SCC 0875-01) for completing the form)
   10. do not disturb a computer when it is part of an incident scene, and immediately notify both the Chief, IT Client Services, and the Manager, Information Technology Security
   11. when a computer is part of an incident scene and there is an apparent attempt to alter computer evidence (such as a rapidly blinking hard drive access light), turn the computer off as quickly as possible and protect it from contamination
   12. when a cell phone or other mobile device(s) is part of an incident scene, take precautions to safeguard the information on the device by turning off the device as quickly as possible, removing the SIM card (if applicable) and contacting the Assistant Deputy Commissioner, Institutional Operations
   13. secure range tapes and Main Communication Control Post recordings following a suicide or any other incident that is likely to result in a national investigation.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Was H’s cell phone examined? B’s cell phone? All of their computers, both at work and at home?

 

[Tricia]

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