Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[RAISINISBACK]

And, they wouldn't be sitting Shiva for them if they thought for a second it was a suicide pact. Suicides are denied normal mourning rituals.
BS would never bring that kind of shame on his family, ever. From the families pov, it would be better for him to pick up the phone and turn himself in, IF he had hurt Honey.

BBM

Once again you are making statements in a manner that implies you knew him personally.

Did you? If so you need to get verified as an insider who personally knew the victims. That way we could consider what you are saying with a more open mind and give thought to you perhaps knowing what you are talking about concerning what he would or would not do.

If you did not know him personally or have inside knowledge of what he would or would not do, then I would put forward the suggestion that you do not know anymore than I do about what he would or would not do. And to state otherwise is very misleading to the rest of us.
JMO

 

[catdctr]

BBM

Once again you are making statements in a manner that implies you knew him personally.

Did you? If so you need to get verified as an insider who personally knew the victims. That way we could consider what you are saying with a more open mind and give thought to you perhaps knowing what you are talking about concerning what he would or would not do.

If you did not know him personally or have inside knowledge of what he would or would not do, then I would put forward the suggestion that you do not know anymore than I do about what he would or would not do. And to state otherwise is very misleading to the rest of us.
JMO

Personally I find all of these posts and opinions very interesting and I dont feel misled as there really isnt much info to go on. We are all in the dark here - it is quite a sad mystery!

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Personally I find all of these posts and opinions very interesting and I dont feel misled as there really isnt much info to go on. We are all in the dark here - it is quite a sad mystery!

I too find these posts and theories of what happened interesting.

But to very emphatically insist that the deceased would never do something like that is not only naive it is misleading. That is why the Mods preach over and over that if it is not in MSM or a statement by LE it should be noted that it is just your own opinion.

I have no doubt that there are those on here that doesn't think he would hurt or kill his wife. But then there are those of us who take what LE, who were on the crime scene, who had eyes on the bodies, who collected all the information, at face value when they say it was a murder suicide.

Family and friend's protests aside, those LE who were on the scene know more than any of us do, including family and friends.

JMO

 

[catdctr]

Does anyone know if you can get a universal garage door opener? Or know of a way to disable?
From all I have read the Shermans were pretty relaxed about security. Wasnt there something about aide door being open often?
It wouldn't surprise me if they parked their cars outside all the time to be able to just walk in the front door. It further wouldn't surprise me if they left their cars unlocked. How easy would it be to remove a garage door opener from a car. Particularly if they didnt use the garage. They wouldn't miss it for days or longer. Very easy to get in and wait in that house I am thinking. Could have been anyone.

 

[catdctr]

Does anyone know if you can get a universal garage door opener? Or know of a way to disable?
From all I have read the Shermans were pretty relaxed about security. Wasnt there something about aide door being open often?
It wouldn't surprise me if they parked their cars outside all the time to be able to just walk in the front door. It further wouldn't surprise me if they left their cars unlocked. How easy would it be to remove a garage door opener from a car. Particularly if they didnt use the garage. They wouldn't miss it for days or longer. Very easy to get in and wait in that house I am thinking. Could have been anyone.

Sorry side door not aide door.

 

[Jennifer17]

Does anyone know if you can get a universal garage door opener? Or know of a way to disable?
From all I have read the Shermans were pretty relaxed about security. Wasnt there something about aide door being open often?
It wouldn't surprise me if they parked their cars outside all the time to be able to just walk in the front door. It further wouldn't surprise me if they left their cars unlocked. How easy would it be to remove a garage door opener from a car. Particularly if they didnt use the garage. They wouldn't miss it for days or longer. Very easy to get in and wait in that house I am thinking. Could have been anyone.

IMO, that was a theory advanced to explain the no forced entry, just like, at the beginning, BS was described as a robust, healthy, workaholic 75 year old, and now he is being described as almost frail.

 

[catdctr]

IMO, that was a theory advanced to explain the no forced entry, just like, at the beginning, BS was described as a robust, healthy, workaholic 75 year old, and now he is being described as almost frail.

I don't think he was frail at all. I think he was sharp to the end. This isn't what I meant to imply. I meant they had lived there for many years and were probably quite comfortable and secure.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I can't imagine any Jewish cemetery refusing to bury the Shermans - especially If the suicide isn't proven. I doubt he was thinking about this at the time as he would have had other concerns on his mind like his family/legacy. Again, I am not sure of anything here but I don't think that give the circumstances this was a priority concern.

Isn't the Jewish custom to bury the person as fast as possible? I can't believe they would disinter someone who's death was later determined to be suicide.

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[catdctr]

Isn't the Jewish custom to bury the person as fast as possible? I can't believe they would disinter someone who's death was later determined to be suicide.

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Yes. Typically asap like the next day if possible and not embalmed.

 

[catdctr]

IMO, that was a theory advanced to explain the no forced entry, just like, at the beginning, BS was described as a robust, healthy, workaholic 75 year old, and now he is being described as almost frail.

Please note my typo correction. Meant to say side door not aide door.

 

[Jennifer17]

Isn't the Jewish custom to bury the person as fast as possible? I can't believe they would disinter someone who's death was later determined to be suicide.

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I don't think in this case, that the religious community would do that even if it was ruled a murder/suicide. They would just choose to disbelieve it, IMO.

 

[Jennifer17]

Please note my typo correction. Meant to say side door not aide door.

I knew what you meant.

 

[human]

IMO, that was a theory advanced to explain the no forced entry, just like, at the beginning, BS was described as a robust, healthy, workaholic 75 year old, and now he is being described as almost frail.

I don’t think I read that. I read that he was not athletic.

As people age, they lose muscle mass.

I think I read he had back issues or did I imagine that?

He had a home gym according to the house plan. Did he use it?

If he did office work , there is no way he was strong. There is a difference between frail and not strong.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Yes, a person who died by suicide may be buried in a Jewish cemetery. The ancient prohibition against doing so is based upon the conception of suicide as the conscious and willful taking of one’s life. Over time, however, Jewish tradition has come to view suicide as the result of mental and emotional desperation and, virtually by definition, an irrational, non-willful act. Jewish law puts an extraordinarily strict construction upon the definition of “suicide”; therefore, even if all evidence points to suicide and even if that evidence satisfies the investigative authorities as to the cause of death, our custom is to bury these individuals, to engage in mourning rituals for them, and to eulogize them appropriately.

https://reformjudaism.org/practice/ask-rabbi/can-person-who-died-suicide-be-buried-jewish-cemetery

Can a person who committed suicide be buried in a Jewish cemetery?

Yes, in most cases. Although traditional Jewish law rules that mourning rites should not be observed for those who take their own lives, most contemporary rabbis look for any basis on which to disqualify an apparent suicide so as to allow for traditional burial.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/suicide-in-jewish-tradition-and-literature/

Not so long ago, Jewish suicides were buried outside the cemetery gates and were not given the respect of a proper burial and full mourning rites. As in most other mainstream religions, suicide was viewed as a sin against God. Today, Judaism defines the suicide as mentally ill and therefore not responsible for his sinful behavior.

Read more:*https://forward.com/culture/320006/breaking-the-silence-about-jewish-suicide/


Times have changed.

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[dotr]

Suicide would NOT appeal to the Shermans, not at all. The Jewish traditions are to save life, not take it. Obviously, they understand that many suicides are the result of mental illnesses but to think that Barry would kill Honey for ANY reason, is absurd. They have both had bouts of cancer, had surgery and treatment and were, apparently, fine. The Jewish tradition is absolutely against suicide, the body belongs to G_d, so if one takes ones life, its like taking the authority away from G_d. Now, I know Barry stated he was an atheist and had no time for organized religion. He even wrote about it, argued about it. BUT, he was still raised in the Jewish traditions as were his children. Traditions run deep. IMO

I think its important to understand things in context, thats why I have posted this. IMO its vital to understand, no longer for Barry and Honey but for their family.

For the person who posted that maybe Honey had had a new, poor diagnosis and he had killed her to prevent suffering, I appreciate that that is your opinion. I have lost two very dear people to cancer, extremely poor diagnoses from the start and not once did anyone suggest we commit suicide to avoid what was ahead. Religion didn't enter into it in any way. We just decided, to make the most of every moment we had left. Every second became more precious, as we knew it was ending very soon. JMO

In the unsolved murder of Yeshiva student Chaim Weiss, LE thought that because of the murder scene in Chaim's room, the perp must have been familiar with a Jewish tradition of opening a window to allow for the soul of the departed to escape because the window had been left open on a cold night.

Unsure how widely that custom may or may not be practiced, especially for someone like BS who was not particularly religious, but cannot help but wonder just a teensy bit about the death scene at the pool and the lack of windows in that particular room.
Imo, speculation.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/suspicious-deaths-toronto-billionaire-couple/story?id=51858923

While Toronto Police would not comment, The Toronto Sun reported that sources said the Shermans were found "side by side, in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool railing."

rbbm.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/21/nyregion/unsolved-crimes-that-piqued-public-interest.html

Chaim Weiss, 15, was found dead in his dormitory room at the Mesivta Yeshiva of Long Beach early on the morning of Nov. 1, 1986.

The youth had been stabbed repeatedly by someone who evidently was well acquainted with the dormitory and its routine. At first, there was speculation that the murder might have been an act of anti-Semitic violence because of harassment of the Orthodox Jewish boys who attended the yeshiva.

However, the investigation soon revealed that Chaim Weiss's murderer was knowledgeable about religious customs. A window had been left open slightly in the victim's room, which, according to Orthodoxy, enables the spirit of the dead to depart. Beyond that, a lighted mourning candle was placed on Chaim's desk.

rbbm.

 

[tarabull]

:thud:

 

[Quinnergirl]

More than likely BS was DX’d with Aspergers at some point? JMO. My son is a brilliant mind but could care less about clothes, fashion, and how to put a “look” together. If we are going somewhere special I have to pick the outfits out right down to the socks and shoes. He is 20 years of age and I hope he finds a woman with some fashion sense J Like BS, my son is not interested in small talk but would prattle on endlessly about his area of expertise. He can be brutally honest, speaks his mind, if asked. A bomb could go off next to him and he would barely flinch. He is not given to anger or rage, but rather resembles a sloth. I find so many similarities with respect to BS and my son. In reading all the posts and taking in the media, etc. I have a very strong deep down feeling that these poor people were murdered. I am not remotely surprised that someone early on leaked that they thought it was murder suicide. These TPS have not likely seen something staged like this ever. I hope justice prevails and I continue to enjoy reading everyone’s opinion. I do feel for the children. Heartbreaking to say the very least.

 

[Tortoise]

I think Honey was killed because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. BS was the target, she may also have been but IMO more likely that she walked into the house first...... got further into the house, dropped her keys/purse......was killed.
BS came in a few seconds later and may have been closer to the door/or not. I believe they were chloroformed, then strangled. IMO

I imagine a scenario where Honey was used to control Barry. A gun held to her head or a knife to her throat, and she may have been injured to show Barry the killer was serious because Barry tried to outsmart the killer.

 

[catdctr]

I imagine a scenario where Honey was used to control Barry. A gun held to her head or a knife to her throat, and she may have been injured to show Barry the killer was serious because Barry tried to outsmart the killer.

That would be chilling indeed. Would make sense as to how they would go to pool area.

 

[Tortoise]

Welcome to Websleuths!
I had the same thought about lividity this morning while I was doing my 'crime thinking' in the shower, lol.
According to the link I will post, lividity starts after 30 minutes.
If Honey laid elsewhere for more than 30 minutes, her blood would have pooled in that position.
When she was hung later, would the blood then drain down, yet some of it stay in the original area (back if she'd been laying on her back, side if she'd been on her side, etc.)?
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html

I also think that the stages of rigor they were in may have been different, so telling that they were killed some time apart from each other.

I don't think this is what you meant but from what I have learned about rigor mortis Honey was positioned for the partial hanging within approx. 2 hours of her death. That positioning would have involved manipulating almost every part of her body.