Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[DarkSkink]

Honey's false fingernail in a wound on Barry's cheek
A clump of Barry's hair in Honey's fist, or her hair in his (mind you that could be planted so I would be cautious about that)
An imprint of a neck chain Honey was wearing on his hands
Footage of him attacking her on her phone
Fibers of a rug used to pull her around found under his nails

Yes.

Now back to the very original discussion that started this, if LE saw those very things immediately after they entered the home, would it be unreasonable for them to operate on the theory that it was murder-suicide?

Is it not then reasonable a source would leak that theory?

Is it not then reasonable to speculate that there had to be something very glaring evidentiary, that led to that initial theory of murder-suicide?

 

[liz b.]

BBM

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

If there is no smoke, do we presume that the fire was well hidden?




Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Respectfully, Wyle, the fire could smoulder without any visible smoke. jmo Personally I think this was a robbery/burglary that went sideways, but jmo

 

[Tortoise]

Yes.

Now back to the very original discussion that started this, if LE saw those very things immediately after they entered the home, would it be unreasonable for them to operate on the theory that it was murder-suicide?

Is it not then reasonable a source would leak that theory?

Is it not then reasonable to speculate that there had to be something very glaring evidentiary, that led to that initial theory of murder-suicide?

I doubt they would be continuing the investigation of the roof, the cars, the street drains and security footage from blocks away. What would there be outside that could have any bearing on a crime centered inside the home between a married couple? If they had all the evidence there would be nothing that could change that outcome. If something could change the conclusion they are not 100% convinced.

 

[DarkSkink]

Respectfully, Wyle, the fire could smoulder without any visible smoke. jmo Personally I think this was a robbery/burglary that went sideways, but jmo

Typically, robbery-murder is very messy, due to the desire for a quick getaway. The longer one stays at a crime scene, the more the criminal leaves behind as evidence.

If there was a security camera in the pool area, how would a perp know it was off? Does it not seem like an odd location for the final act if there was a possibility they were being filmed?

 

[DarkSkink]

I doubt they would be continuing the investigation of the roof, the cars, the street drains and security footage from blocks away. What would there be outside that could have any bearing on a crime centered inside the home between a married couple? If they had all the evidence there would be nothing that could change that outcome. If something could change the conclusion they are not 100% convinced.

Again, back to the original discussion.

Imagine if the family files a lawsuit or complaint in the future.

If the lead detective, on the stand, is asked, "Well, did you at least search the sewers nearby, or get the neighbors' security camera footage?"

And he answers, "No." What are the optics of that? Incompetent or a thorough investigation?

LE's motives for investigating this deeply may be more about optics than what the evidence is showing.

They didn't go anywhere near this level of investigation with Tess Richey's murder, and they know for a fact she was murdered.

 

[Tortoise]

Again, back to the original discussion.

Imagine if the family files a lawsuit or complaint in the future.

If the lead detective, on the stand, is asked, "Well, did you at least search the sewers nearby, or get the neighbors' security camera footage?"

And he answers, "No." What are the optics of that? Incompetent or a thorough investigation?

LE's motives for investigating this deeply may be more about optics than what the evidence is showing.

They didn't go anywhere near this level of investigation with Tess Richey's murder, and they know for a fact she was murdered.

If I was the lead detective and I had conclusive evidence of murder-suicide I would share my findings with their lawyer and wait for any lawsuit, unperturbed, not put resources into weeks of investigation that I know isn't going to yield any results.

 

[JDG]

Just jumping in to question if LE was able to get fingernail scrapping under either parties nails?


This sounds like a hired hit to me. It was too clean and precise.

It must have been two perps as one would have to hold Mr. B down as the other perp strangled Mrs. B. Amazing they had no bruises on either of them! This is what makes me think it was a hit.

Also, if this is gang related, high end Gangs, LE may be keeping any information close to the vest??

Nothing relating to your post has been divulged, other than they were strangled.

 

[DarkSkink]

If I was the lead detective and I had conclusive evidence of murder-suicide I would share my findings with their lawyer and wait for any lawsuit, unperturbed, not put resources into weeks of investigation that I know isn't going to yield any results.

Really? Your career is on the line in a very high profile case? Your boss it telling you to make 100% sure that nothing is overlooked? You may be publicly humiliated and held accountable in the future in ways you cannot imagine?

Even with a broken fingernail in Barry's face, they are going to make absolutely sure that there is zero evidence that it could have been staged.

What if you didn't search the sewers, and the private investigators did? What if they find a glove and break in tools? How does that look?

Even if the break in tools and glove had nothing to do with the Shermans, how does that look? How do you prove it had nothing to do with the Shermans? You, the lead investigator, now look incompetent.

 

[Cdndm]

If anyone is curious to see how the house that was demolished looked like, here are lots of pictures:

http://www.brian-gray.com/91.htm

Wrong address: the Sherman property was 91 Old Forest Hill Rd.

 

[zencompass]

Absolutely no information of their findings was released after the post mortem examinations except for cause of death.

No other information,or details were released about the findings.

Press Release from the Toronto Police Services (Dec. 17, 2017):

Link: http://torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/39905

"At 11:44 a.m., on Friday, December 15, 2017, police responded to a 9-1-1 call to 50 Old Colony Road. "

"Police officers attended the address and located a man and a woman inside the house. Both were deceased."

"The deceased man has been identified as Barry Sherman, 75. The deceased woman has been identified as Honey Sherman, 70. "

"Post-mortem examinations were carried out yesterday and today. The cause of death for both deceased was ligature neck compression. "

"Toronto Police Service Homicide has taken the lead in this suspicious death investigation. "

 

[Sillybilly]

Please stop the back and forth bickering, rudeness and personalizing.

State your case and move on, scroll and roll, or use the Ignore feature.

:tyou:

 

[JDG]

Again, back to the original discussion.

Imagine if the family files a lawsuit or complaint in the future.

If the lead detective, on the stand, is asked, "Well, did you at least search the sewers nearby, or get the neighbors' security camera footage?"

And he answers, "No." What are the optics of that? Incompetent or a thorough investigation?

LE's motives for investigating this deeply may be more about optics than what the evidence is showing.

They didn't go anywhere near this level of investigation with Tess Richey's murder, and they know for a fact she was murdered.

You keep referring to the Tess Richey case. That was not handled properly at all, we all know that........BUT this is about the Sherman case.

You may want to start a thread about Tess Richey, as there were huge gaps and hardly any investigation until AFTER she was found.

Just a suggestion. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, not based necessarily on Net Worth.

 

[zencompass]

Really? Your career is in the line in a very high profile case? Your boss it telling you to make 100% sure that nothing is overlooked? You may be publicly humiliated and held accountable in the future in ways you cannot imagine?

Even with a broken fingernail in Barry's face, they are going to make absolutely sure that there is zero evidence that it could have been staged.

What if you didn't search the sewers, and the private investigators did? What if they find a glove and break in tools? How does that look?

Even if the break in tools and glove had nothing to do with the Shermans, how does that look? How do you prove it had nothing to do with the Shermans? You, the lead investigator, now look incompetent.

I agree that there is tremendous pressure from high ranking officials in the Toronto Police Services and other areas on this police investigation.

 

[zencompass]

In my opinion, the Toronto Police Services have ordered that this investigation be treated as a murder investigation, whether or not it is.

As I said, there is tremendous pressure on this investigation coming from different directions - both within the TPS and in the political areas.

 

[Peace777]

"The three forms of strangulation are: hanging, ligature, and manual. Hanging occurs when a person is suspended with a ligature around his or her neck, which constricts due to the gravitational pull of the person’s own body weight. Ligature strangulation occurs when the pressure applied around the neck is with a ligature only. Manual strangulation occurs when pressure is applied to the neck with hands, arms, or legs." Found these explained here>> http://www.forensicnurses.org/?page=STAssessment FWIW

 

[Tortoise]

Really? Your career is on the line in a very high profile case? Your boss it telling you to make 100% sure that nothing is overlooked? You may be publicly humiliated and held accountable in the future in ways you cannot imagine?

Even with a broken fingernail in Barry's face, they are going to make absolutely sure that there is zero evidence that it could have been staged.

What if you didn't search the sewers, and the private investigators did? What if they find a glove and break in tools? How does that look?

Even if the break in tools and glove had nothing to do with the Shermans, how does that look? How do you prove it had nothing to do with the Shermans? You, the lead investigator, now look incompetent.

Well we could debate this forever. It all depends on how conclusive conclusive is.

I don't think I look incompetent if the glove that shows up had nothing to do with it.

If they haven't made sure that the evidence wasn't staged they haven't been thorough enough to draw any conclusions.

 

[tarabull]

Isn't pretty much everything about this case debatable at this point??? Well everything accept COD: Ligature Neck Compression for both Barry & Honey...

Hot Chocolate anyone???

:blushing:

 

[DarkSkink]

You keep referring to the Tess Richey case. That was not handled properly at all, we all know that........BUT this is about the Sherman case.

You may want to start a thread about Tess Richey, as there were huge gaps and hardly any investigation until AFTER she was found.

Just a suggestion. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, not based necessarily on Net Worth.

It is the exact same police force, in the exact same city, using the exact same resources, at almost the exact same time. Apples are aplenty.

One case gets weeks of investigation including sewer searches in the surrounding area. The other doesn't. Of any case, wouldn't it be prudent to scour sewers, garbage cans, streets, curbs, roofs, etc. around the area where Tess was found? Was it done?

Both families complained. One family hired a private investigation team and high profile lawyer. It's a fair comparison.

LE themselves said the sewer search was done out of "an abundance of caution". What are they being cautious of?

 

[human]

Absolutely no information of their findings was released after the post mortem examinations except for cause of death.

No other information,or details were released about the findings.

Press Release from the Toronto Police Services (Dec. 17, 2017):

Link: http://torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/39905

"At 11:44 a.m., on Friday, December 15, 2017, police responded to a 9-1-1 call to 50 Old Colony Road. "

"Police officers attended the address and located a man and a woman inside the house. Both were deceased."

"The deceased man has been identified as Barry Sherman, 75. The deceased woman has been identified as Honey Sherman, 70. "

"Post-mortem examinations were carried out yesterday and today. The cause of death for both deceased was ligature neck compression. "

"Toronto Police Service Homicide has taken the lead in this suspicious death investigation. "

Seems like there is no indication in this that they are focused on murder/suicide.

So Honey died from ligature. Not manual and not hanging? Or could hanging be in the ligature neck compression?

If Barry strangled her with an object, boy, that does not sound accidental as in rage.

 

[DarkSkink]

Isn't pretty much everything about this case debatable at this point??? Well everything accept COD: Ligature Neck Compression for both Barry & Honey...

Hot Chocolate anyone???

:blushing:

Spot on.

And isn't a forum about discussion and debate?