Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[Jennifer17]

Seems like there is no indication in this that they are focused on murder/suicide.

So Homey died from ligature. Not manual and not hanging?

I think hanging is ligature neck compression.

 

[human]

I think hanging is ligature neck compression.

I am going by the definitions posted above where hanging was a separate category, But I suppose since it is COD instead of MOD, it would fit the hanging

 

[DarkSkink]

Seems like there is no indication in this that they are focused on murder/suicide.

So Honey died from ligature. Not manual and not hanging? Or could hanging be in the ligature neck compression?

If Barry strangled her with an object, boy, that does not sound accidental as in rage.

The ligature is the instrument that caused the neck compression.

The Medical Examiner isn't necessarily privy to how the ligature was used, be it by hand, or by being suspended by a rail. That is for the detectives to put together

 

[tarabull]

Additional 411 to add to any confusion lol

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html

 

[DarkSkink]

Additional 411 to add to any confusion lol

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html

Actually, that is a pretty good link.

Make note of the difference between ligature marks in strangulation vs. hanging. This may actually play a part in the Shermans' case.

If one of the victims have the strangulation type of marks, and one does not, even though they are both hanging, this might be one of the indications of murder suicide.

 

[tarabull]

I thought it was pretty good too. Just being a clown. :clown:

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

LE themselves said the sewer search was done out of "an abundance of caution". What are they being cautious of?

Snipped for focus

Just jumping off of this...

If I do something put of an abundance of caution, it would mean that I didn't really think it was necessary, but I did it anyway.

Sounds to me like appeasing the family.

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[lakress]

Longtime lurker...for years. I have been reading this thread from the beginning and I feel I have to say something because this one is getting contentious. The truth of it is, I’m following this case for I think many of the same reasons all of you are. It hits close to home. And that’s because the murder suicide theory is viable. I’m not going to defend all that Otto has said...it’s been blunt and maybe hurtful to some. But he is trying to move the murder suicide thread forward as a possibility to discuss just as some of you are trying to discuss other options. For me, the murder suicide angle is a real possibility, as it was for “police sources” first on the scene. And that’s hard to grapple with. It’s a much darker conclusion then the others really. It would mean that no matter how much money you have, you are vulnerable. It would mean that the person closest to you is capable of hurting you. It’s a hard thing to face..for all of us. But we need to face this possibility.

 

[tarabull]

The phrase, “out of an abundance of caution,” is often used when explaining an action that isn’t necessary, but is going to be done anyway because you want to be extra careful.

http://www.bifurcatedneedle.com/new-blog/2015/7/22/out-of-an-abundance-of-caution-an-overused-phrase

 

[tarabull]

:welcome6: lakress!!!

GREAT first post....point well made & taken...

Reminds me of this quote:
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Isaac Asimov

ETA: :blushing:

 

[Peace777]

"A GUIDE TO THE PHYSICAL ANALYSIS OF LIGATURE PATTERNS IN HOMICIDE INVESTIGATIONS"
"The Role of the Investigator
The Homicide investigator's role in any given case is not to officially diagnose anything relating to the manner, mechanism, or cause of a victim's death. That is the is strict domain of the Medical Examiner or Coroner's Office. The Homicide investigator is interested in an accurate reconstruction of events that will lead them to a suspect."
"ASSUMPTION OF HOMICIDE
There is general agreement in the literature that cases involving strangulation by ligature are most commonly homicides (Adelson [1], [3], [4], Geberth [5], [7], Vanezis [9]). Furthermore, Knight et al. [7] suggests that all cases of ligature strangulation be investigated as homicides until the opposite can be demonstrated. That course will help to define the procedural scope and weight of an investigation early on."
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

 

[lakress]

Thank you, tarabull. I’ve been reading your posts and I’m so impressed with you.

 

[Hazel]

According to Google Maps, it takes 14 minutes drive from the newly-bought house (now demolished) to their current house.
From 91 Old Forest Hill Road
To 50 Old Colony Road

Google Map: https://goo.gl/maps/BVF3TLg4SVF2

 

[thepinkdragon]

I am one of those who goes only by LE statements in quotes, not unnamed sources, though sources are sometimes right in the end.

I don’t have an issue with sources theories... I have an issue when those sources are being used to say something is a fact, when it has not yet been proven. There is a big difference between that and an official statement from the police. MOO

I can see this going either way. I think there are good theories as to why it could be a murder-suicide or a double murder. To me the circumstances surrounding this couple are what make either scenario seem so “out-there”. Family and friends don’t want to believe that Barry and Honey were so unhappy that they would do something like this... whereas the general public may find that the idea of a double murder is too outlandish and pulled straight out of a movie. Unfortunately we may never really know the truth. Unless evidence is uncovered to substantiate either scenario, there are just too many unknowns. I do hope though that the Toronto police are able to gather enough evidence to publicly declare their findings.


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[JDG]

According to Google Maps, it takes 14 minutes drive from the newly-bought house (now demolished) to their current house.
From 91 Old Forest Hill Road
To 50 Old Colony Road

Google Map: https://goo.gl/maps/BVF3TLg4SVF2

That could vary a lot depending on time of day and route taken. There is an awful lot of Toronto 'under construction', a new subway going in and condos being built almost everywhere. We have constant, severe gridlock all over the city.

 

[JDG]

I don’t have an issue with sources theories... I have an issue when those sources are being used to say something is a fact, when it has not yet been proven. There is a big difference between that and an official statement from the police. MOO

I can see this going either way. I think there are good theories as to why it could be a murder-suicide or a double murder. To me the circumstances surrounding this couple are what make either scenario seem so “out-there”. Family and friends don’t want to believe that Barry and Honey were so unhappy that they would do something like this... whereas the general public may find that the idea of a double murder is too outlandish and pulled straight out of a movie. Unfortunately we may never really know the truth. Unless evidence is uncovered to substantiate either scenario, there are just too many unknowns. I do hope though that the Toronto police are able to gather enough evidence to publicly declare their findings.


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If it is a double murder, we will hear about it. The family may be able to cite privacy concerns for some details, such as getting gag orders etc.
If its a murder/suicide committed by BS, the police may not say too much citing the same privacy concerns, as the perp would be known to be deceased.
If its a murder/suicide not committed by BS, we will also hear about it but the family may have some say based on privacy issues.
And, if its considered to be a suicide pact, we won't hear a thing, other than the case has been concluded and closed.

If its a double murder, I have concerns that they may never have enough proof to prosecute anyone. The police often know what has happened but do not have enough proof to take a case to court with a reasonable chance of a conviction. That may well happen with the Shermans.

Those are my thoughts on it.

 

[human]

If they were going to the architect’s office, however, where is that?

We have no actual verified info that they met with the architect.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo there is nothing police could say that would satisfy all.

 

[Lilibet]

It is the love of money that is the route of all evil. Money can be used for positive.

I think the Sherman’s had a mix of both. Doing tremendous good and also having the privilege that goes with it that may not always be in the best interest of all

BBM

You’re right, it is the “love of money” not just money, which can be used for good. This may have been said already and if so, apologies. But it’s the “root” of all evil, not the “route” and it’s from the Bible, cautioning against being “minded” or determined to be rich. The love of money is said to be the “root of all kinds of evil” not evil in general. And of course, Barry’s beliefs would no doubt cause him to ignore anything from the Bible anyway. In his case, “follow the money” may be the solution to this crime, so I can understand why the word “route” was used in the comments. It fits, even though it’s not the exact quote.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 9 But they that are minded to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and hurtful lusts, such as drown men in destruction and perdition [spiritual ruin]. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (American Standard Version)

 

[Inthedetails]

BBM

You’re right, it is the “love of money” not just money, which can be used for good. This may have been said already and if so, apologies. But it’s the “root” of all evil, not the “route” and it’s from the Bible, cautioning against being “minded” or determined to be rich. The love of money is said to be the “root of all kinds of evil” not evil in general. And of course, Barry’s beliefs would no doubt cause him to ignore anything from the Bible anyway. In his case, “follow the money” may be the solution to this crime, so I can understand why the word “route” was used in the comments. It fits, even though it’s not the exact quote.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 9 But they that are minded to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and hurtful lusts, such as drown men in destruction and perdition [spiritual ruin]. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (American Standard Version)

My pet peeve is when people say, "the love of money is the root of all evil," when, as you wrote, it's the LOVE of money that's the problem.

And with that, Happy 2018 everyone! I'll see you all next year.