Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[deugirtni]

Enjoy it. I’m in the southern u.s. and it’s in the teens here tonight. [emoji43]

Happy New Year!

Brag. I knew I should've married an Ozzie or at least a Florida guy.. it is MINUS 10F here right now. Happy new year anyway!

 

[abeaman02]

Enjoy it. I’m in the southern u.s. and it’s in the teens here tonight. [emoji43]

Happy New Year!

Happy New Year from Michigan where it is -4

 

[gregjrichards]

Do you think Barry would have committed suicide and murdered his wife knowing he was being awarded the Order of Canada very soon? Surely this would have been a great honour and achievement to him or he would not have accepted it. Why after a life of success would you want to die in disgrace? Why would he chose that day in particular?

It also seems crazy me that as the owner of a pharmaceutical company you would kill yourself and your wife via hanging? Why not take an overdose?

 

[deugirtni]

Well we could debate this forever. It all depends on how conclusive conclusive is.

I don't think I look incompetent if the glove that shows up had nothing to do with it.

If they haven't made sure that the evidence wasn't staged they haven't been thorough enough to draw any conclusions.

You would look incompetent because you didn't even know there was a glove to be found, nor if it was significant to the case, until it *was* found, and examined, and if it wasn't found by you, but by the hired second opinion, that is akin to someone following you around at work and showing your superiors proof of what you missed..... incompetent. Can you imagine the headlines? 'Hired Sherman case investigators find glove disposed in sewer next to crimescene home. Police say it's not important that they missed it, unless it's proven to be related.' That sure wouldn't instill any sense of confidence in the police, imho.

 

[2Hope4]

I wonder if Honey had a recent follow cancer appointment? I don't know the type of cancer she had in her throat, and whether it was deep in her esophagus or at the back of her throat, etc. However, esophageal and stomach cancers have a high rate of returning. IF she had been given news that the cancer was back, that could change things in my mind.

Certain cancers if they are in the esophagus, it's brutal. Difficult to eat. Difficult to talk. If the throat meant the trachea or airway, difficulty breathing, coughing, etc. Some refer to the thyroid as throat as well. So I don't know where her cancer actually was.

As for either not having a diagnosis of mental illness, nobody has a diagnosis, until they do. My father had a bizarre mental collapse that the doctors never gave a diagnosis for. He became paranoid out of the blue. To the point Mom was afraid for her life, and with good reason. Once the police came, Dad told the police Mom was possessed by a demon and the only way to get rid of it was to kill her!! They had been married around 40 yrs at that time. It had never happened before, and then it did.

 

[deugirtni]

Do you think Barry would have committed suicide and murdered his wife knowing he was being awarded the Order of Canada very soon? Surely this would have been a great honour and achievement to him or he would not have accepted it. Why after a life of success would you want to die in disgrace? Why would he chose that day in particular?

It also seems crazy me that as the owner of a pharmaceutical company you would kill yourself and your wife via hanging? Why not take an overdose?

Both of those things (thinking about the award, and/or planning a better method of murder) may not have been possible while in the midst of a sudden murderous rage... to which some could say the same thing about what I posted above, questioning how he could kill her by compressing a ligature around her neck... except that when he's in his murderous rage, how could he not *also* think, omg, she just finished beating cancer of the throat.. wouldn't it have been just as successful to suffocate her or do a drowning or a blunt force something? Just *seeing* her neck, I would think would bring some kind of spark of the reality of what she had just been through.. I can't see him doing that... but then again, I've never been in that murderous rage, so not sure what kind of senses you have about you, at the time. jmo.

 

[Lilibet]

Things I’ve learned on WS: Anything is possible, especially things I don’t think are possible. Never say never. People are unpredictable. What I would do isn’t what someone else would do and vice versa. LE is working hard on cases even when we think they aren’t. Just when you think you have it all figured out, it changes. Everything takes longer than I think it should, especially setting trial dates. Usually the simplest explanation is correct. Conspiracies are rare. There are exceptions to all of the above. And on and on and on.

Any additions to the list?

 

[human]

BBM

You’re right, it is the “love of money” not just money, which can be used for good. This may have been said already and if so, apologies. But it’s the “root” of all evil, not the “route” and it’s from the Bible, cautioning against being “minded” or determined to be rich. The love of money is said to be the “root of all kinds of evil” not evil in general. And of course, Barry’s beliefs would no doubt cause him to ignore anything from the Bible anyway. In his case, “follow the money” may be the solution to this crime, so I can understand why the word “route” was used in the comments. It fits, even though it’s not the exact quote.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 9 But they that are minded to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and hurtful lusts, such as drown men in destruction and perdition [spiritual ruin]. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (American Standard Version)

I meant to write that the love of money is the root of all evil, but I do like my accidental writing of route. The love of money is the route that will bring people down the wrong path.

Making money is something some people are good at. It is a real plus for everyone when they use money for good things as the Sherman’s did.

I think it is ok that he challenged the patents in order to make generic drugs available.He did upset many people , though, as not everyone sees things the same way.

 

[human]

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the motive behind murder suicide. Barry could have pulled off the staging in my mind. He was a workaholic and PhD just like me. I am also the owner of a company so I get the life. He would have thought about his company and reputation after killing her and was more than capable physically and mentally staging this. To think like a sleuth is to understand the mindset. It would not be hard in the hands of someone smart to arrange scene.
If you act fast enough you can actually make a hanging look like suicide. You can actually strangle a person and cause death and fool most pathologists into ligature compression. It isnt hard if you do this quickly. Pathologists cannot tell the difference on gross unless obvious and histological findings also do not correlate. Btw I actually do know this as I am a board certifed veterinary pathologist. Pathology is the same in human and veterinary training. Except we have rare chance to investigate why bessie the cow woukd have shot the farmer. Just a joke. Forensic pathologists routinely conference with veterinary pathologists..
The thing is why now . People married that long have long ago accepted differences and opinions. Barry didnt have dementia.
Why now would he have snapped and killed her.
I would like to hear from people on this forum who have been married for 40 years. It is a long business marriage.

I will soon be married forty five years,. If something happened to my husband, the thought of being with another man at this age is totally unappealing. We have both developed our habits which we either accept or ignore.

Things that would have made me angry 20 years ago simply go in one ear and out the other or not in at all.

It is a big adjustment when you retire, but Barry was not retired.

They have money and are able to do what they want. They have children who love them. They are not lonely but rather have lots to do. They have purpose.

Since it was ligature, that is very intense. Using something to choke someone is far more frightening to me than choking manually which I could see in a fight. I cannot see using ligature in a fight unless it is planned.

What are the reasons people divorce? New love interest, money issues, different values. What else?

Do people all of a sudden become violent when they never have in the past? Does that mean there were violent incidences before?

One would think Honey would confide in someone if that was the case.

 

[deugirtni]

I wonder if Honey had a recent follow cancer appointment? I don't know the type of cancer she had in her throat, and whether it was deep in her esophagus or at the back of her throat, etc. However, esophageal and stomach cancers have a high rate of returning. IF she had been given news that the cancer was back, that could change things in my mind.

Certain cancers if they are in the esophagus, it's brutal. Difficult to eat. Difficult to talk. If the throat meant the trachea or airway, difficulty breathing, coughing, etc. Some refer to the thyroid as throat as well. So I don't know where her cancer actually was.

As for either not having a diagnosis of mental illness, nobody has a diagnosis, until they do. My father had a bizarre mental collapse that the doctors never gave a diagnosis for. He became paranoid out of the blue. To the point Mom was afraid for her life, and with good reason. Once the police came, Dad told the police Mom was possessed by a demon and the only way to get rid of it was to kill her!! They had been married around 40 yrs at that time. It had never happened before, and then it did.

Now *that* is really scary. Imagine living with a man for 40 years, and suddenly this thing comes out of the blue.. how to react.. and you're right, they happen when they happen.

As for the throat thing.. I noticed in one of the videos I watched that H's voice was quite raspy, but I'm unsure of when the video was recorded, and when exactly she had her bout with throat cancer. I think one has to be cancer free for 5 years, to be considered to have beaten it? I don't get the impression from what I've read that it had been that long, so I was thinking the same thing - about the possibility of having received terrible news from a doctor.

It has been said they visited the architect on the Wed afternoon/evening - that B wrote an email at 8;30pm on that same evening - that B did not go to work on the following day (Thursday), and that H had not been heard from on Thurs - but in two articles now, I have read the date of death as being the Thursday. I'm wondering if there may have been a followup appointment at her specialist, which they attended together on the Thursday - got devastating news.. dealt with it in a horrible way. The thing that doesn't add up for that theory, is that if someone wanted to go gently, rather than be potentially ravaged by cancer, B&H had a wealth of concoctions at their fingertips, so it's unlikely they'd choose to be strangled and/or hung instead.

What if they visited the specialist on the Thurs at some point, came home, and H *attempted* to kill herself... didn't quite get the job done successfully, B found her, and was put in a position of having to finish it off, and then to decide how to deal with it from there... maybe it was the evening by the time it was all said and done (hence the lights still on the next day). I'm sure police would know about a specialist appointment, and any bad news that may have been relayed, and the mystery would be over though, if all or any of that were the case.

 

[Jennifer17]

I kind of get the impression that they were living separate lives. They were going to Florida for the holidays and going on different days. I find that a bit strange with a couple who were supposed to be so close and happy. And Honey is emailing people looking for social engagements like she had to fill every moment with other people.

 

[deugirtni]

This is another theory that doesn't really hold water... but it *is* possible..
So both of the Greens (previous owners of the S's new address) die within months of each other.. the son privately sells the property to H several months later, in November 2016. Plans are quickly drawn up in February 2017 for the construction of a new 16000 square foot mansion for the S couple. Many variances are applied for.. a public notice is duly posted.. the hoops are jumped through.. and finally, on November 6, 2017 (only about 5 weeks before the Shermans' deaths), approval is issued by way of a building permit for the demolition of the old home , and the construction of the new home.
Demolition must have occurred very quickly, as the lot had already been levelled by the time of the S's deaths.
Is it possible that there is some kind of sentiment in regard to the old house? Is it possible that as part of the private purchase agreement, stipulations were made about what would/could be done with the property - which may have ultimately ended up being breached in some way?
The timing surrounding the whole homes situation is interesting.
jmo.
ETA: forgot to mention the obvious - that it was obviously no secret that these plans for the S's new property were in effect, considering the public notice that would have had to have been erected on the site, etc. Is it possible however, that someone who may have held sentiment for that old house hadn't kept up with all of that, and wasn't really aware of any of it, until demolition actually started happening?

 

[deugirtni]

I kind of get the impression that they were living separate lives. They were going to Florida for the holidays and going on different days. I find that a bit strange with a couple who were supposed to be so close and happy. And Honey is emailing people looking for social engagements like she had to fill every moment with other people.

I don't get that impression. I get the impression that H was a socialite, loves the party life, preparing for parties, entertaining, and guests, etc... and B prefers his work. H had made plans to leave only 1 week ahead of her husband, likely to prepare for all of the holiday entertaining and hosting they would be doing with various guests over the holidays. B decided to stay back and do what he loves best, and show up when all of that prep work was already looked after. To me, that says that they were comfortable in their marriage, didn't have to be together all the time, and felt okay about each pursuing their own interests, while also enjoying the end result of spending time with friends and family. That old saying about opposites attract, etc. If B had felt he had to accompany H just to be there with her while she took care of the decorating and prep work, that situation would be more suggestive of an issue, to me. jmo.

 

[Tortoise]

You would look incompetent because you didn't even know there was a glove to be found, nor if it was significant to the case, until it *was* found, and examined, and if it wasn't found by you, but by the hired second opinion, that is akin to someone following you around at work and showing your superiors proof of what you missed..... incompetent. Can you imagine the headlines? 'Hired Sherman case investigators find glove disposed in sewer next to crimescene home. Police say it's not important that they missed it, unless it's proven to be related.' That sure wouldn't instill any sense of confidence in the police, imho.

Well I shall agree to disagree. My point is best made by looking to the definition of incompetence.

Incompetence would be missing something relevant, not missing something irrelevant.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't get that impression. I get the impression that H was a socialite, loves the party life, preparing for parties, entertaining, and guests, etc... and B prefers his work. H had made plans to leave only 1 week ahead of her husband, likely to prepare for all of the holiday entertaining and hosting they would be doing with various guests over the holidays. B decided to stay back and do what he loves best, and show up when all of that prep work was already looked after. To me, that says that they were comfortable in their marriage, didn't have to be together all the time, and felt okay about each pursuing their own interests, while also enjoying the end result of spending time with friends and family. That old saying about opposites attract, etc. If B had felt he had to accompany H just to be there with her while she took care of the decorating and prep work, that situation would be more suggestive of an issue, to me. jmo.

I've also considered that Honey may have been planning to spend some time with her daughter and new baby. But I don't know if she lived in Florida. Often time grandmas will help out with new baby once dad has had to return to work. Even if they had nannies, a daughter might like to have her mother's advice and support.

 

[minorone]

It has been suggested that HS was strangulated by ligature compression in another location and moved to where her body was found. If the body was staged in the secondary location, I wonder if the time period between the primary and secondary scene be evident when the autopsy is performed.


My understanding is that it takes 2-4 hours after death for livor mortis to be evident. When the police say the body was moved, could we assume that the body was in the initial death scene for at least more than 2 hours. I am assuming 2 hrs since the body was in a temperate location.

In this article it states:

“Ligature abrasions follow a predictable pattern of horizontal circumscription about the neck; distinguishable from the marks left by suicidal hanging, where a suspension point causes the ligature furrow to rise toward one ear.”

http://www.markwynn.com/wp-content/uploads/death-by-strangulation.pdf

I am assuming if was strangulation followed by a later hanging, the autopsy would clearly show this and the time period would be evident.

 

[Researchnut]

They would not be exempt on the transfer. No accountant can do that, period. They would not meet the standards for an exemption. The legislation is straightforward.

If Honey ran a non-profit, that provides no tax advantages to her in personam. The non-profit is a separate legal entity, incorporated as such. It doesn’t make her tax exempt or advantaged.

I looked into this a little further after my absolute blunder of saying that Honey ran a not for profit. I cannot find any links to this information. I apologize for this. I can however find links to The" Sherman Family foundation" in Canada.. Not to be confused with "The Sherman Family Foundation" in Th U.S.

I want to add that a close examination of anyone's taxes will find some discrepancies. I have close friends that work for the Feds here. We talk about this frequently without mentioning the names of the individuals ,or companies of who we are discussing (This would be illegal in Canada).
IMO the deaths have little to do with the Shermans personally fighting over money. They were wealthy, very wealthy at the time of their deaths.

Note that in Canada you can :
- Be paid to be on a NPO board.
- Write off 100% of your donations to a registered charity that you donate to on your personal income tax.

Sherman Family Foundation-Registered Name: Sherman Family Foundation
Business Number: 813676186RR0001
150 SIGNET DRIVE-NORTH YORK, ON , M9L 1T9
From: https://www.canadahelps.org/en/charities/sherman-family-foundation/
Revenue--No employees? -https://www.canadahelps.org/en/charities/sherman-family-foundation/impact/view/

3 Board members-Should be 3 to 5 with some expertise ,and 50 percent of the board members should be listed as "YES" At arm's length with other Directors-Not the case with the Sherman family foundation
^ The above means that upto 100% of the Shermans donations may have been written off against thier personal income taxes . The Canadian government did have income splitting as well,Honey not working at a job could have benifitted them in thier personal income taxes

Non-profit tax and personal income tax

https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tips/dif...-profit-organizations-for-your-donations-5351
https://giveconfidently.ca/interpreting-government-information/
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/...01&fpe=2015-12-31&n=Sherman+Family+Foundation
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/...01&fpe=2015-12-31&n=Sherman+Family+Foundation
https://chimp.net/charities/sherman-family-foundation
https://www.marsdd.com/mars-library/board-compensation-npo-versus-for-profit-boards/

IMO The above information has little nothing to really do with this case.

Aside for the pay for acess issue I personally have problems with Honey having donated so much money to the Trudeau Liberals with her husband being a qualified lobbyist.
IMO our Canadian government has some real issues. Don't think this is a reason for murder either.

lobbyistslaws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-2.01/FullText.html
https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00012.html

 

[Tighthead]

I looked into this a little further after my absolute blunder of saying that Honey ran a not for profit. I cannot find any links to this information. I apologize for this. I can however find links to The" Sherman Family foundation" in Canada.. Not to be confused with "The Sherman Family Foundation" in Th U.S.

I want to add that a close examination of anyone's taxes will find some discrepancies. I have close friends that work for the Feds here. We talk about this frequently without mentioning the names of the individuals ,or companies of who we are discussing (This would be illegal in Canada).
IMO the deaths have little to do with the Shermans personally fighting over money. They were wealthy, very wealthy at the time of their deaths.

Note that in Canada you can :
- Be paid to be on a NPO board.
- Write off 100% of your donations to a registered charity that you donate to on your personal income tax.

Sherman Family Foundation-Registered Name: Sherman Family Foundation
Business Number: 813676186RR0001
150 SIGNET DRIVE-NORTH YORK, ON , M9L 1T9
From: https://www.canadahelps.org/en/charities/sherman-family-foundation/
Revenue--No employees? -https://www.canadahelps.org/en/charities/sherman-family-foundation/impact/view/

3 Board members-Should be 3 to 5 with some expertise ,and 50 percent of the board members should be listed as "YES" At arm's length with other Directors-Not the case with the Sherman family foundation
^ The above means that upto 100% of the Shermans donations may have been written off against thier personal income taxes . The Canadian government did have income splitting as well,Honey not working at a job could have benifitted them in thier personal income taxes

Non-profit tax and personal income tax

https://turbotax.intuit.ca/tips/dif...-profit-organizations-for-your-donations-5351
https://giveconfidently.ca/interpreting-government-information/
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/...01&fpe=2015-12-31&n=Sherman+Family+Foundation
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/...01&fpe=2015-12-31&n=Sherman+Family+Foundation
https://chimp.net/charities/sherman-family-foundation
https://www.marsdd.com/mars-library/board-compensation-npo-versus-for-profit-boards/

IMO The above information has little nothing to really do with this case.

Aside for the pay for acess issue I personally have problems with Honey having donated so much money to the Trudeau Liberals with her husband being a qualified lobbyist.
IMO our Canadian government has some real issues. Don't think this is a reason for murder either.

lobbyistslaws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-2.01/FullText.html
https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00012.html

Anyone can write off charitable donations. Has nothing to do with their foundation.

Do you honestly think Honey was not in the top income tax bracket as a result of investment income? That would be highly unusual.

If she was paid as a board board member that is T-4 income tax. Same as everyone else.

 

[kay74]

.



“Ligature abrasions follow a predictable pattern of horizontal circumscription about the neck; distinguishable from the marks left by suicidal hanging, where a suspension point causes the ligature furrow to rise toward one ear.”

http://www.markwynn.com/wp-content/uploads/death-by-strangulation.pdf

I am assuming if was strangulation followed by a later hanging, the autopsy would clearly show this and the time period would be evident.[/QUOTE]

Well then LE should have no problem pinpointing what happened.

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry if this has already been posted. An article written by Christie Blatchford in regard to the issue of 'police source' being quoted by MSM.

As with any unnamed sources, there’s a great range of reliability with unnamed police sources and the reporters who use them: Some sources may have first-hand information or access to the actual detectives working the case; some may have got no closer than the guy who guarded the crime scene for three hours; some may be repeating gossip. Some journalists know the differences among them, and some don’t.
....
In other words, it’s entirely possible that among the most surprised to find the early working theory of murder-suicide splashed all over the press were the actual detectives.

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/chr...-screwed-up-investigation-into-sherman-deaths