Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[PaulR]

Would the children take over litigation in the death of BS? I can see that being so with the cousin's appeal case, but not so much with anything Apotex related. But you're right, I see the advantage of litigating with the children rather than BS himself.

With Apotex, the other company may come out with an offer to buy Apotex outright which would settle the lawsuit. Kids get cash, lawsuit goes away.

Though I can see the kids wanting to see what the outcome of the police investigation is before doing anything.

 

[JayFriend]

Statistics Canada has some good information along with charts that you will find informative. About 40 people per year die in murder suicides in Canada, most often within the family, in their home, and most often committed by a male killing his spouse. There is often a history of violence prior to the incident, and drugs and alcohol are factors.

An interesting thing about murder-suicide in Canada, is that death often occurred by shooting. This would not be uncommon in the US, but in Canada the rate of homicide by shooting, in the general population, falls behind stabbings. We have good reason to maintain tight gun ownership policies.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2013001/article/11805/11805-2-eng.htm

That makes the staged "hanging" even more bizarre and improbable as a murder suicide.

 

[human]

That's a very good point about truly helping others and not just giving money. I wish we knew more and not the limited writing that's available. Maybe more will come out from those who worked with him; I hope so.

He did way more than most people do. His capability was the ability to make money. He gave money. He was not a people person, apparently, but there was an employee in here that said he would even sit in the employee’s cafeteria and eat with them.

Money is a great help to people. And he gave drugs to poor countries. Was it the HIV drug?

Think of all the rich people that indulge only their own selves with golden furniture, clothing that costs a fortune, recreational drugs, expensive jewelry.

Even if people are super rich, they don’t release their wealth to others.

He chose the charities and other places where he gave his money on what he felt was important. We all choose what we like. Some give to animal funds. Some give to funds that care for children or the elderly.

He gave which is more than I can say avout a lot of people

 

[Tighthead]

Would the children take over litigation in the death of BS? I can see that being so with the cousin's appeal case, but not so much with anything Apotex related. But you're right, I see the advantage of litigating with the children rather than BS himself.

The executor(s) instruct the litigation.

The officers and directors of Apotex govern all corporate concerns, including litigation.

 

[zencompass]

He did way more than most people do. His capability was the ability to make money. He gave money. He was not a people person, apparently, but there was an employee in here that said he would even sit in the employee’s cafeteria and eat with them.

Money is a great help to people. And he gave drugs to poor countries. Was it the HIV drug?

Think of all the rich people that indulge only their own selves with golden furniture, clothing that costs a fortune, recreational drugs, expensive jewelry.

Even if people are super rich, they don’t release their wealth to others.

He chose the charities and other places where he gave his money on what he felt was important. We all choose what we like. Some give to animal funds. Some give to funds that care for children or the elderly.

He gave which is more than I can say avout a lot of people

Hi Human,

The following statement from this article amplifies their tremendous generosity and Honey's volunteer work seemed endless.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...potex-founder-two-bodies-north-york-1.4452684

From article (above):

"The Shermans were among Canada's most generous philanthropists and also organized funding for charitable causes through the Apotex Foundation. The couple made numerous multimillion-dollar donations to hospitals, schools and charities and had buildings named in their honour."

 

[hmoon]

Google Chris Benoit; he did the same thing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Benoit_double-murder_and_suicide#Chris_Benoit

"She said that over the weekend after the murders the search history on Benoit's computer showed he had researched "the quickest and easiest way to break a neck". He had then later used a towel around his neck attached to the handle of the machine, which he pulled down using a very heavy weight and let go, breaking his neck instantly."

Quite different

 

[otto]

Sure, but when considering a murder-suicide, it is rare. Statistically speaking, it would be an anomaly.

In your source, it also says that ligature strangulation, or ligature neck compression, is an unusual form of suicide. Ligature neck compression is to not be confused with hanging. There's also zero statistics on murder-suicide in your source. There's actually zero statistics at all.

"Hanging is one of the most commonly used methods for suicide worldwide. In England and a number of other countries, its incidence has increased over the last 30 years.
...
Around 50% of hanging suicides are not fully suspended.
...

The place of death in approximately three-quarters of the cases was the person's home.
...

A range of different ligatures were used—most commonly rope, belts, and electric flex. The main ligature points were rafters and beams, banisters, hooks, door knobs, and trees."

The epidemiology and prevention of suicide by hanging: a systematic review
International Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 34, Issue 2, 1 April 2005, Pages 433–442
https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyh398
https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/34/2/433/747066

 

[HastingsChi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Benoit_double-murder_and_suicide#Chris_Benoit

"She said that over the weekend after the murders the search history on Benoit's computer showed he had researched "the quickest and easiest way to break a neck". He had then later used a towel around his neck attached to the handle of the machine, which he pulled down using a very heavy weight and let go, breaking his neck instantly."

Quite different

Chris Benoit strangled his wife and son to death and then committed suicide by hanging using weight equipment for leverage.
Not different at all -- strangulation murder + death by hanging.

 

[HastingsChi]

He did way more than most people do. His capability was the ability to make money. He gave money. He was not a people person, apparently, but there was an employee in here that said he would even sit in the employee’s cafeteria and eat with them.

Money is a great help to people. And he gave drugs to poor countries. Was it the HIV drug?

Think of all the rich people that indulge only their own selves with golden furniture, clothing that costs a fortune, recreational drugs, expensive jewelry.

Even if people are super rich, they don’t release their wealth to others.

He chose the charities and other places where he gave his money on what he felt was important. We all choose what we like. Some give to animal funds. Some give to funds that care for children or the elderly.

He gave which is more than I can say avout a lot of people

John E. du Pont was also a very generous man who helped countless people with his generosity; he also murdered someone.

 

[otto]

John E. du Pont was also a very generous man who helped countless people with his generosity; he also murdered someone.

Exactly. There's no reason to assume that philanthropy equates to good character and normal family. Another good example is Seymour Durst, philanthropist whose wife committed suicide:

" Newspapers said the 32-year-old woman had overdosed on asthma medication, but The New York Times has reported family members privately acknowledged her death was a suicide."

https://www.politico.com/media/stor...r-lies-about-mothers-death-in-hbo-show-003396

... and a son who committed murder.

 

[Grey-St]

"Hanging is one of the most commonly used methods for suicide worldwide. In England and a number of other countries, its incidence has increased over the last 30 years.
...
Around 50% of hanging suicides are not fully suspended.
...

The place of death in approximately three-quarters of the cases was the person's home.
...

A range of different ligatures were used—most commonly rope, belts, and electric flex. The main ligature points were rafters and beams, banisters, hooks, door knobs, and trees."

The epidemiology and prevention of suicide by hanging: a systematic review
International Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 34, Issue 2, 1 April 2005, Pages 433–442
https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyh398
https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/34/2/433/747066

I'm well aware that hanging is a common form of suicide, and is often not suspended. These cases are still classified as hanging as COD, however, as per your sources. Likely involving one person.

These deaths are classified as ligature neck compression as COD. Both with BS and HS with the same COD classification.

Furthermore, the Statistics Canada information posted earlier implies just how rare murder-suicide by ligature neck compression or hanging, truly is. Like I said previously, it doesn't mean it's not possible, anything is, it's just an anomaly.

 

[Grey-St]

Chris Benoit strangled his wife and son to death and then committed suicide by hanging using weight equipment for leverage.
Not different at all -- strangulation murder + death by hanging.

Did Chris Benoit, his wife, and the son all have the same COD classification? I haven't had time to read the resources provided as of yet.

 

[Grey-St]

Exactly. There's no reason to assume that philanthropy equates to good character and normal family. Another good example is Seymour Durst, philanthropist whose wife committed suicide:

" Newspapers said the 32-year-old woman had overdosed on asthma medication, but The New York Times has reported family members privately acknowledged her death was a suicide."

https://www.politico.com/media/stor...r-lies-about-mothers-death-in-hbo-show-003396

... and a son who committed murder.

Oh I certainly don't believe that philanthropy equates to good character, a "normal" family, or anything else implying that an individual isn't capable of murder, suicide, or any other nefarious activity. I don't think anyone else is implying that either.

 

[otto]

I'm well aware that hanging is a common form of suicide, and is often not suspended. These cases are still classified as hanging as COD, however, as per your sources. Likely involving one person.

These deaths are classified as ligature neck compression as COD. Both with BS and HS with the same COD classification.

Furthermore, the Statistics Canada information posted earlier implies just how rare murder-suicide by ligature neck compression or hanging, truly is. Like I said previously, it doesn't mean it's not possible, anything is, it's just an anomaly.

The peer reviewed research paper that I linked is a valid source of information, and can be considered an authority on the epidemiology of suicide by hanging. The suicide of Barry Sherman is exactly described in that journal article: suicide by hanging with belt from bannister/railing, at home and feet touching the floor.

Reference:

The epidemiology and prevention of suicide by hanging: a systematic review
David Gunnell Olive Bennewith Keith Hawton Sue Simkin Nav Kapur
International Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 34, Issue 2, 1 April 2005, Pages 433–442,
https://doi.org/10.1093/ije/dyh398
https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/34/2/433/747066

According to stats Canada:

"Even though hanging has been the most common method of suicide ..."

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htm#cvsd

 

[zencompass]

Hi Otto,

Thank you for this information.

What is puzzling me is why the post mortem examinations and scene did not reveal critical clues to point to a conclusion of what occurred.

I genuinely thought that the examinations and forensics at scene would demonstrate what happened. Or at least point towards the likelier scenario.

Am I alone in thinking that at least one possible theory/scenario would have been eliminated from investigating the forensic evidence?

What are your thoughts on this? Thanks in advance,

 

[otto]

Hi Otto,

Thank you for this information.

What is puzzling me is why the post mortem examinations and scene did not reveal critical clues to point to a conclusion of what occurred.

I genuinely thought that the examinations and forensics at scene would demonstrate what happened. Or at least point towards the likelier scenario.

Am I alone in thinking that at least one possible theory/scenario would have been eliminated from investigating the forensic evidence?

What are your thoughts on this? Thanks in advance,

When I first read about these deaths, I accepted what police said: that the deaths were suspicious - not natural death - and were being investigated as a murder/suicide. When I read about how they were found, I briefly thought murder, but given all the other information we've received I went back to the initial and un-revised statement from police: murder/suicide.

If there was evidence of a double murder, we would know about it. As long as it is a murder/suicide, where police are not looking for any outstanding suspects, police are under no obligation to reveal more information about the scene or conditions of the bodies to the public. In fact, out of respect for the family of a murder/suicide, they do not release more information to the public.

If there was anything at the scene to support that idea that the couple were murdered, it would be all over the news because investigators would be looking for tips and information to track down the culprits. As it is, and per police statements, they believe they have the suspect for the murder and he is deceased.

 

[JDG]

Zencompass, TPS are still holding the scene. You may be correct but nothing other than the COD has been released.
That doesn't mean TPS does not know, they may well know an awful lot by now. Its just being kept private as the investigation continues.

Imagine the amount of 'stuff' they have to wade through.....certainly not your average case.

 

[zencompass]

Thank you JDG.

While the police revealed the cause of death only, I was puzzled why the police would be searching the property and sewers.

Now that you advise that the police are still "holding the scene" it makes sense to me.

I understand that they are keeping everything private until the investigation has concluded.

Wow - you are spot on about this not being an "average" case!

 

[human]

John E. du Pont was also a very generous man who helped countless people with his generosity; he also murdered someone.

I am not saying anything about whether he murdered his wife. I was simply responding to people saying he was not a giving person or that he should have guven more or to different things. That he should have given his time rather than money

I applaud him for doing whatever he did.

I was very taken with his statement about having so much and wondering about the fairness of it all.I wonder how many well to do simply think they are entitled.

 

[Mamamerced]

How does this relate to the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman?

I temporarily traded in my magnifying glass for an empathic view, that's all.