Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[zencompass]

Do you have a link to any official statements that said this was a murder-suicide? If not, then it's just opinion, as is everything in this case save for two facts given by LE - they both died of ligature strangulation and their deaths are suspicious.

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I agree with what you have said. Those are the only two facts which L.E. have given.

The fact that a "source" told the Toronto Sun that the L.E. were viewing this as a "murder-suicide" was well before the post mortem examinations had even begun.

We have absolutely no information as to what the post mortem examinations revealed forensically except the cause of death, "ligature neck compression" as stated by the police.

During these post-mortem examinations, bodies can and do reveal what happened.

 

[nuff]

Also, it has been discussed that the cousins had reason to want Barry dead.

S

If so, the motive would be only revenge, not money. And why now? (The court decision denying their lawsuit is under appeal, but there is no way to know if it will be overturned. If the appeal succeeded, the Shermans' deaths would be irrelevant.)

 

[Tortoise]

There's been a good bit of discussion about Barry Sherman's treatment of his cousins, but I haven't seen a connection made to his death. Previously it has been pointed out that Barry Sherman expressed an interest in mutually advantageous behavior. Did he see a benefit to himself in honoring an agreement with his young cousins, or did he believe he had already satisfied his obligation to them?

To understand a person's death under suspicious circumstances we look at their life. Something happened here to BS, whether he committed suicide or was murdered his life will hold the clues.

 

[Tortoise]

From Sunday Dec 17th reporting

Authorities were conducting post-mortem examinations on Saturday and treating the deaths as suspicious. A Toronto Police spokesman said that nothing had been ruled out in the probe.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...eaths-billionaire-pharma-couple/#.WlIFbq5l-M-

 

[Tortoise]

From Saturday Dec 16th reporting

Aside from describing the deaths as “suspicious,” the police in Toronto offered little information. Brandon Price, a homicide detective, told reporters that investigators were not “currently seeking a suspect,” a statement he said had been made to “alleviate some of the concerns in the neighborhood.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/world/americas/canada-sherman-apotex-death.html

 

[Tortoise]

With all the enemies he had, I'm interested in reasons as to why BS engaging in murder at age 75 and very quickly becoming suicidal (before HS' body became stiff) might be a favoured belief over him falling victim to murder. Of course it's one of the options to consider, but why is it deemed probable?

 

[JayFriend]

If they were not rich and powerful, this would already officially have been ruled a murder- suicide. Sad how money buys power in life and death...

But since they are rich and powerful, there's a lot of possible motives for double murder and LE has to work a lot harder.

 

[musicaljoke]

Maybe this was an murder and that is confusing me because I see it most likely as murder-suicide. I've been trying to understand the phenomenon of murder-suicide using recent news articles in the US but I haven't made much progress. One thing I've noticed, not much is reported in Canada about murder-suicide. Maybe I'm just missing the news in my searches. If someone is on here who can enlighten me concerning this phenomenon in Canada it would be very helpful to me.

Statistics Canada has some good information along with charts that you will find informative. About 40 people per year die in murder suicides in Canada, most often within the family, in their home, and most often committed by a male killing his spouse. There is often a history of violence prior to the incident, and drugs and alcohol are factors.

An interesting thing about murder-suicide in Canada, is that death often occurred by shooting. This would not be uncommon in the US, but in Canada the rate of homicide by shooting, in the general population, falls behind stabbings. We have good reason to maintain tight gun ownership policies.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2013001/article/11805/11805-2-eng.htm

 

[musicaljoke]

But since they are rich and powerful, there's a lot of possible motives for double murder and LE has to work a lot harder.

Yes, that's true. There is a greater chance that the murder is planned with care when huge amounts of money are in the equation, than what would be the case in the typical murder.

 

[zencompass]

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/sherman-family-hires-pathologist-to-perform-second-autopsy-1.3734463

I believed that the post mortem examinations would have yielded clues to what happened. I was thinking of defence wounds and bits of material found (if dragging was involved).

I see from the above article that the family hired a pathologist to conduct a second autopsy.

The private investigation team would have received the information from the initial post mortem exams as well.

Since the investigations are still ongoing then does this mean that any forensic evidence discovered has been inconclusive?

I had thought that the post mortem examinations would have led the police to answers.

Some investigations find evidence at the scene and with the forensic information from the post mortem exams to conclude definitely one way or another. Perhaps not in this case?

 

[Grey-St]

Statistics Canada has some good information along with charts that you will find informative. About 40 people per year die in murder suicides in Canada, most often within the family, in their home, and most often committed by a male killing his spouse. There is often a history of violence prior to the incident, and drugs and alcohol are factors.

An interesting thing about murder-suicide in Canada, is that death often occurred by shooting. This would not be uncommon in the US, but in Canada the rate of homicide by shooting, in the general population, falls behind stabbings. We have good reason to maintain tight gun ownership policies.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2013001/article/11805/11805-2-eng.htm

This is interesting because the idea of murder-suicide by 'ligature neck compression' still does leave me perplexed. Of course anything is possible, but statistically speaking, it would be an anomaly.

 

[Grey-St]

Yes, that's true. There is a greater chance that the murder is planned with care when huge amounts of money are in the equation, than what would be the case in the typical murder.

Agreed. However, in this case, I don't see who directly benefits financially by the deaths of BS and HS. Their children doing this does not resonate with me and I feel horrible even repeating that now. I can see it motivated by revenge by lets say, the cousins, or someone else who might feel wronged, or by someone who's business would flourish in the pharmaceutical industry if BS was out of the picture. I suppose that would be seen as financially motivated.

 

[HastingsChi]

This is interesting because the idea of murder-suicide by 'ligature neck compression' still does leave me perplexed. Of course anything is possible, but statistically speaking, it would be an anomaly.

Why? People hang themselves all the time to commit suicide. People murder by strangulation.
Both result in ligiture neck compression:
https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suicide/Ligature_strangulation

 

[Grey-St]

Why? People hang themselves all the time to commit suicide. People murder by strangulation.
Both result in ligiture neck compression:
https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suicide/Ligature_strangulation

Sure, but when considering a murder-suicide, it is rare. Statistically speaking, it would be an anomaly.

In your source, it also says that ligature strangulation, or ligature neck compression, is an unusual form of suicide. Ligature neck compression is to not be confused with hanging. There's also zero statistics on murder-suicide in your source. There's actually zero statistics at all.

 

[HastingsChi]

Sure, but when considering a murder-suicide, it is rare. Statistically speaking, it would be an anomaly.

In your source, it also says that ligature strangulation, or ligature neck compression, is an unusual form of suicide. Ligature neck compression is to not be confused with hanging. There's also zero statistics on murder-suicide in your source. There's actually zero statistics at all.

Google Chris Benoit; he did the same thing

 

[PaulR]

Agreed. However, in this case, I don't see who directly benefits financially by the deaths of BS and HS. Their children doing this does not resonate with me and I feel horrible even repeating that now. I can see it motivated by revenge by lets say, the cousins, or someone else who might feel wronged, or by someone who's business would flourish in the pharmaceutical industry if BS was out of the picture. I suppose that would be seen as financially motivated.

Barry was a fighter. Cousins (which I think is more likely) or a competitor both know the kids have little interest in the business and may be more pliable in settling since to them the business is just a source of money, not something they built by hand, and would have plenty of it.

 

[dotr]

Agreed. However, in this case, I don't see who directly benefits financially by the deaths of BS and HS. Their children doing this does not resonate with me and I feel horrible even repeating that now. I can see it motivated by revenge by lets say, the cousins, or someone else who might feel wronged, or by someone who's business would flourish in the pharmaceutical industry if BS was out of the picture. I suppose that would be seen as financially motivated.

If this was murder/murder,
suspecting that this did not have anything to do with money directly, but with power, control, influence and revenge.

If it was in fact a murder/suicide, the reasons might have something to do with shame, disgrace and sense of impending loss.
I.e HS had recently received an important award and BS was poised to receive an Order of Canada, which could be rescinded under certain circumstances...
https://globalnews.ca/news/269486/f...nt-canadians-stripped-of-the-order-of-canada/

July 24, 2012

Fall from grace: 4 prominent Canadians stripped of the Order of Canada

The pool area is where the Shermans often hosted parties and other social events so it might be meaningful to the killer/s that the bodies were displayed at that particular location.

all speculation, imo.

 

[Grey-St]

Barry was a fighter. Cousins (which I think is more likely) or a competitor both know the kids have little interest in the business and may be more pliable in settling since to them the business is just a source of money, not something they built by hand, and would have plenty of it.

Would the children take over litigation in the death of BS? I can see that being so with the cousin's appeal case, but not so much with anything Apotex related. But you're right, I see the advantage of litigating with the children rather than BS himself.

 

[pamelado2]

If this was murder/murder,
suspecting that this did not have anything to do with money directly, but with power, control, influence and revenge.

If it was in fact a murder/suicide, the reasons might have something to do with shame, disgrace and sense of impending loss.
I.e HS had recently received an important award and BS was poised to receive an Order of Canada, which could be rescinded under certain circumstances...
https://globalnews.ca/news/269486/f...nt-canadians-stripped-of-the-order-of-canada/


The pool area is where the Shermans often hosted parties and other social events so it might be meaningful to the killer/s that the bodies were displayed at that particular location.

all speculation, imo.

Wouldn't they host parties at the outdoor pool as opposed to a lap pool in their basement?

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[dotr]

Wouldn't they host parties at the outdoor pool as opposed to a lap pool in their basement?

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If it was summer the outdoor pool would be the likely one,imo.
ETA.
Rbbm.
https://www.pressreader.com/canada/the-globe-and-mail.../281603830833195
Dec 23, 2017 - The faulty garage structure at the heart of the dispute, which included a tennis court on top and a sauna and underground pool inside, was a key part of their house. It was used for social events, such as charity functions and formal dinners