Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[zencompass]

Many thanks, Otto, for your reply.

I kept getting stuck on what was revealed to the police (that we are not privy to, of course)during the post mortem examinations.

 

[JayFriend]

I'll stand by my theory of double murder, perpetrator(s) and motive to be found. But if it is a bizarre murder suicide, the deaths taking place in different areas some time apart and staged to look like they died together, what would be the reason? There was no suicide note. Why go to such lengths and not make a statement, unless BS thought it should be obvious, which it so far isn't. So, without a note, the police are not likely to put forth any public theory, just leave it be. That's what we websleuths have to come up with.

 

[otto]

Many thanks, Otto, for your reply.

I kept getting stuck on what was revealed during the post mortem examinations.

I doubt that we will hear anything about the autopsy in a murder / suicide scenario unless the family decides to release that information. The family has every right to keep it private, but in a trial that information would be released. With no outstanding suspects, there will not be a trial.

 

[zencompass]

I'll stand by my theory of double murder, perpetrator(s) and motive to be found. But if it is a bizarre murder suicide, the deaths taking place in different areas some time apart and staged to look like they died together, what would be the reason? There was no suicide note. Why go to such lengths and not make a statement, unless BS thought it should be obvious, which it so far isn't. So, without a note, the police are not likely to put forth any public theory, just leave it be. That's what we websleuths have to come up with.

Hi JayFriend,

That's what I respect about Websleuths. We all have different thoughts and theories with one thing in common - compassion towards the victims as well as to each other.

I learn more from Websleuthers who have different/opposite theories than I have.

To me, it is fascinating how each of us have unique perspectives and are able to see things in different ways.

I have changed my mind a few times on this case .

 

[zencompass]

I doubt that we will hear anything about the autopsy in a murder / suicide scenario unless the family decides to release that information. The family has every right to keep it private, but in a trial that information would be released. With no outstanding suspects, there will not be a trial.

Thank you, Otto, for this explanation.

 

[JDG]

IF it is a suicide/murder, I think the family will keep it private and the police will announce that the case has been closed.

IF it is a murder/murder, I don't think the police are looking for some random person who is a threat to the community. It may be in a month, or in a year but the police will announce, at some point, that they have made an arrest. But, ONLY if they can find enough proof to secure a prosecution.

In many murders, they can figure it out and have scenarios/suspects but do not have enough proof for the Attorney General to go ahead with a trial. We must remember, no announcement does not mean they do not know. Its all about proving it in court.

 

[otto]

IF it is a suicide/murder, I think the family will keep it private and the police will announce that the case has been closed.

IF it is a murder/murder, I don't think the police are looking for some random person who is a threat to the community. It may be in a month, or in a year but the police will announce, at some point, that they have made an arrest. But, ONLY if they can find enough proof to secure a prosecution.

In many murders, they can figure it out and have scenarios/suspects but do not have enough proof for the Attorney General to go ahead with a trial. We must remember, no announcement does not mean they do not know. Its all about proving it in court.

Until police change their position from "not looking for any outstanding suspects" to looking for suspects, I think we can assume that they have their suspect.

 

[JayFriend]

Until police change their position from "not looking for any outstanding suspects" to looking for suspects, I think we can assume that they have their suspect.

Maybe they're not looking because they have suspects in mind, just no evidence they want to reveal.

 

[pamelado2]

When I first read about these deaths, I accepted what police said: that the deaths were suspicious - not natural death - and were being investigated as a murder/suicide. When I read about how they were found, I briefly thought murder, but given all the other information we've received I went back to the initial and un-revised statement from police: murder/suicide.

If there was evidence of a double murder, we would know about it. .

RSBM

Just to be clear, there never was a police statement saying that this was a murder/suicide (originally, revised or unrevised). Unless you have a link?

Also, I have never followed a case where the police felt obligated to inform the public if the evidence they've collected.

Personally, I lean towards double murder, but that's just an opinion based on what I've read. I honestly won't be surprised by what ends up being revealed. I can see it going either way.



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[otto]

RSBM

Just to be clear, there never was a police statement saying that this was a murder/suicide (originally, revised or unrevised). Unless you have a link?

Also, I have never followed a case where the police felt obligated to inform the public if the evidence they've collected.

Personally, I lean towards double murder, but that's just an opinion based on what I've read. I honestly won't be surprised by what ends up being revealed. I can see it going either way.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Yes, let's be absolutely clear. My understanding of the facts of the case is taken from published news articles. I do understand that how I have understood that information, and how others have understood that information, is different. That much is clear.

We also know with absolute clarity that hanging is the most common method of suicide in Canada, yet there are pages and pages of comments claiming that suicide by hanging is extremely rare. Statistics Canada links are used to back up the claim that suicide by hanging is rare, yet a few minutes of actually researching the information reveals the real facts.

"Even though hanging has been the most common method of suicide ..."

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htm#cvsd

 

[pamelado2]

Yes, let's be absolutely clear. My understanding of the facts of the case is taken from published news articles. I do understand that how I have understood that information, and how others have understood that information, is different. That much is clear.

We also know with absolute clarity that hanging is the most common method of suicide in Canada, yet there are pages and pages of comments claiming that suicide by hanging is extremely rare. Statistics Canada links are used to back up the claim that suicide by hanging is rare, yet a few minutes of actually researching the information reveals the real facts.

"Even though hanging has been the most common method of suicide ..."

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htm#cvsd

I don't believe I mentioned what was published or not published, I am strictly speaking of the difference between a statement from police and a statement from an unknown source. There has never been a statement by police that this was being considered a murder-suicide.


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[JDG]

Otto,

I agree that hanging is a very common method of suicide. It lays open the suicide pact option, instead of suicide/murder.

I think that is highly unlikely but wonder if you've given it any thought? It is an option that the police spoke of before they had COD. IMO

Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, Toronto Sun

 

[JDG]

Maybe they're not looking because they have suspects in mind, just no evidence they want to reveal.

I imagine they have a very long list of people to interview, many things such as forensic accountants/lawyers going over the many varied business dealings of BS and HS. Also checking out their social circle as well as family, friends etc.

 

[otto]

I don't believe I mentioned what was published or not published, I am strictly speaking of the difference between a statement from police and a statement from an unknown source. There has never been a statement by police that this was being considered a murder-suicide.


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Of course. Similarly, two people look at the Stats Canada website to determine the most common method of suicide and some come away with quotes that avoid the facts, and others with the facts.

When I see this statement: "Police investigating possible murder-suicide in deaths of billionaire and his wife", I understand that police are investigating the deaths as a murder suicide". I understand that others assume this statement is meaningless, but we already know that different people have different ways of understanding information published by MSM.

 

[otto]

Otto,

I agree that hanging is a very common method of suicide. It lays open the suicide pact option, instead of suicide/murder.

I think that is highly unlikely but wonder if you've given it any thought? It is an option that the police spoke of before they had COD. IMO

Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, Toronto Sun

I don't know anything about suicide pacts except my belief that the deaths occur simultaneously. That is not what we've read about these deaths.

 

[1&2&3]

The constant in my mind is that in the beginning it was thought that HS was killed somewhere else and then taken to the pool area where she was found.

For me, I think there would have been a struggle between she and BS as she would not have been easily subdued. I don’t believe she was in on this plan if it was murder-suicide.

If there was a struggle, Barry would have needed to get everything straightened up, put back into place so it looked normal. IMO. However, on second thought, why would he care if was going to be dead? A messed up house would give the appearance of an intruder. Would Barry want people to know it was a suicide-murder?

Another point that I am waiting for is the time of death for each of them. If it was close in minutes, that leads me further away from the suicide- murder event. It would take some time to kill HS, move her to pool area, get her in hanging position, then hang himself. I just can’t see the times of death being close.

My opinions only.

 

[dotr]

Okay, this may have nothing to do with these mysterious deaths, but linking due to the Florida/Bridle Path connections and the reference to the unsolved murder by asphyxiation of another Toronto couple.
Very weird goings on involving real estate agents, tennis, bizarre threatening letters.
Just noting, that is all, fwiw, imo, speculation.
http://www.macleans.ca/intrigue-at-sloans-curve/

One day in March 2014, Harold Peerenboom received an anonymous letter. The envelope was addressed to his home in Sloan’s Curve, a luxury gated community in Palm Beach, Fla. “In September we heard around the neighbourhood that you had died in a car accident,” the missive read. Peerenboom, a wealthy Toronto businessman, had been hospitalized after a crash a few months prior. “I was looking into buying my ticket to go to Canada so I could spit, dance, urinate and deficate [sic] on your grave,” the letter continued. “Then found out you cheated death.”

The author and a “helpful assistant,” according to the letter, had spent tens of thousands of dollars on research, postage and envelopes to send mail to prison inmates in Florida, Alabama, Georgia and Canada, along with their mothers, spouses and girlfriends

Peerenboom contacted police as soon as the first hate mail appeared in 2012, but he also opened his own investigation, contributing to a widening gyre of litigation that has pulled in friends, neighbours, private investigators, high-powered attorneys and police forces in the U.S. and Canada. In five separate lawsuits and thousands of pages of court documents, there are allegations of character assassination, DNA theft, extortion and even accusations of murder.

And the whole debacle began, according to Peerenboom, with a dispute about tennis courts.

In early January, David Pichosky and Rochelle Wise had been found asphyxiated in their townhouse in Hallandale Beach, about an hour’s drive from Palm Beach. Wise had been a long-time director at the Toronto private school Peerenboom co-founded. The letters falsely claimed Peerenboom was involved in their deaths, allegedly blaming Wise for the child abuse accusation contained in the earlier round of hate mail. (The homicide investigation remains open.)

 

[debanng]

He did way more than most people do. His capability was the ability to make money. He gave money. He was not a people person, apparently, but there was an employee in here that said he would even sit in the employee’s cafeteria and eat with them.

Money is a great help to people. And he gave drugs to poor countries. Was it the HIV drug?

Think of all the rich people that indulge only their own selves with golden furniture, clothing that costs a fortune, recreational drugs, expensive jewelry.

Even if people are super rich, they don’t release their wealth to others.

He chose the charities and other places where he gave his money on what he felt was important. We all choose what we like. Some give to animal funds. Some give to funds that care for children or the elderly.

He gave which is more than I can say avout a lot of people

I dont think he was the one doing all the giving. it was his wife.
He was generous. We dont know what other people lurk in the background.

 

[JDG]

Okay, this may have nothing to do with these mysterious deaths, but linking due to the Florida/Bridle Path connections and the reference to the unsolved murder by asphyxiation of another Toronto couple.
Very weird goings on involving real estate agents, tennis, bizarre threatening letters.
Just noting, that is all, fwiw, imo, speculation.
http://www.macleans.ca/intrigue-at-sloans-curve/

Thank you very much for the link. A very interesting read. I was aware that the homicide was still unsolved and expected to remain so but I didn't know about this 'tennis court' problem.

If one googles Dr. Nancy Olivieri, there were poison pen letters and attempts to totally ruin her when she brought some information to BS from a drug trial that he had funded. She has survived it but at great cost. IMO, it also gives us another window into the real BS.

Makes me happy to be an ordinary working person if this is what 'being rich' is all about. IMO

 

[neesaki]

Are there any theories as to, if a double suicide, why Honey would commit such an act? If she had a terminal illness that would have been found in autopsy, so that doesn’t appear to be an option.

So, at this point I personally rule out double suicide, JMO.

After reading about Barrys personal beliefs, or lack thereof, I do think it’s possible it was a murder suicide. Is he that evil though? I have no idea. JMO