Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[Tortoise]

Given the injuries that Honey sustained prior to death, (according to Donovan's and earlier articles), the first impression may well have been murder-suicide, though its rightly emphasized by many here that TPS has only described the deaths as 'suspicious.' In the audio link I posted of Pierson's radio interview, Donovan seems to confirm that MSM, rather than police, made the mistake of assuming murder-suicide.

Yes, whether it was an impression or just one of the options they had to consider, if it was going to be murder-suicide they would have to consider that one of them died before the other.

 

[Tortoise]

Doesn't sound as if they had a gun, for Honey to put up a struggle. I think a gun would make me freeze. Then again maybe others would be braver.

 

[Veeduck]

I agree, Tortoise. And wouldn't one think that a professional hitman, or even a run-of-the-mill murder-for-hire, would be packing a pistol? Thats part of why I now think teenager(s) might be the culprit.

 

[Tighthead]

Would the defendants' deaths mean that costs wouldn't be pursued by their executors? IDK.

Considering the cousins have appealed, I can’t see the executor letting costs go.

 

[ohreally]

Has a source reported that HS died first? I know there were reports that there was a secondary scene involving HS, I just don't remember any stating she had died first. I could of easily missed the report.
In the new reports it says the belts were tied to the railing. It,s possible tha they were tied to the posts of the railing IMO and would still be considered tied to the railing.

 

[Tortoise]

Has a source reported that HS died first? I know there were reports that there was a secondary scene involving HS, I just don't remember any stating she had died first. I could of easily missed the report.
In the new reports it says the belts were tied to the railing. It,s possible tha they were tied to the posts of the railing IMO and would still be considered tied to the railing.

I don't think I've read she died first.

I think I read that the belts were tied to the railing and that is what was keeping them in a sitting up position. Maybe I've imagined that, I will have to look back.

 

[Tortoise]

It says it here

Sources say a working theory of the private team probing the deaths is that the Shermans were strangled by the belts, then the belts were attached to the railing, holding them in a seated position.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...-honey-sherman-were-murdered-sources-say.html

 

[Grey-St]

Joe Warmington reported most of this info already and he was shot down. Why is it believable now?

Warmington never reported on the results of the autopsy, other than cause of death. He theorized that it could be double-homicide, but we've only heard of the wrist being bound, etc, since Donovan's article.

 

[Grey-St]

In the process of lifting them to hang them they wouldn't be dead already.

Maybe, but that's not the impression I'm getting. I'm thinking they were strangled to death with the ligature, and then displayed with the hanging/placement by the pool.

 

[Grey-St]

Good question. Others have wondered why only Honey's cars were towed away. To which I'd add:

If Donovan's article is correct in stating that there was no rigor mortis in either victim when police first examined them, then what made LE think that Honey's death occurred before Barry's? The victims weren't found until approximately 30-36 hours had elapsed, so it would've been difficult to determine relative times of death by comparing body temperatures, though that is probably the likeliest explanation. JMO, since I've never studied forensics.

I don't think it was reported that LE thought Honey was killed first, but that there was a secondary crime scene suggesting she was killed or injured elsewhere, and then moved to the railing. The 'Honey being killed first' narrative more or less emerged with the murder-suicide theory.

 

[ldlager]

In one of the earliest articles on this case, it was reported that a staff member was in the house when the police first arrived, and that s/he told LE that staff had been instructed not to service the pool room. This was given as an explanation for why the victims weren't discovered until that Friday. I don't recall seeing the staff member's explanation reported in any other articles since then, so perhaps you're right to question its validity.

thanks veeduck. I think I recall that the reporting said that staff did not service the lower floor of the house, which would incl the pool room. But just going from memory, it is MANY posts ago. Imo

 

[ldlager]

It's all so strange that no one raised the alarm for all that time. I wonder if their phones were with them and no one could hear them ringing from the house, if there were staff in the house. It's hard to believe that no one had tried to contact them. I think even if I had been told not to service the pool area I might start to look for them there in case one of them had fallen or had a heart attack and needed help, with the cars being outside and them not having said they would be away, not coming to the kitchen for food or drink, not picking up their mail, and not being anywhere else in the home. Staff would probably be best placed to immediately know what was out of character. I think it's odd that they didn't look, if they were there on Thursday and/or Friday morning, even if it was outside their normal range of duties to go there. I might even have gone to a neighbour to ask if they had seen them and allow the neighbour to come in and look.

its possible the staff didn’t work every day. Or they were instructed by either hs or bs that they were not needed on Thursday. Jmo

 

[nuff]

I don't think it was reported that LE thought Honey was killed first, but that there was a secondary crime scene suggesting she was killed or injured elsewhere, and then moved to the railing. The 'Honey being killed first' narrative more or less emerged with the murder-suicide theory.

Some of the speculation that HS died well before BS arose from this forum, in that the pictures of the bodies being removed from the house appeared to show that the posture of one displayed a different level of rigor. The latest information about the time of death (whether you consider it rumour or not) suggests that the time of death for both was well before the bodies were found, and rigor would be gone by the time the bodies were moved at least 48 hours later.

 

[Starkville]

“Who, when committing suicide, binds their arms up in their jacket? Given this and the many years of a loving relationship between the Shermans, I think it's bizarre to think this was a murder-suicide. “

The murder-suicide theory has been incomprehensible to me. Everyone has a right to their opinion, of course, but I don’t see how it’s even worth entertaining.

 

[deugirtni]

Would the defendants' deaths mean that costs wouldn't be pursued by their executors? IDK.

No..... it had occurred to me that it may be possible that BS had left something in his Will for the 4 orphans (and/or their offspring) - just curious - the plaintiffs did not win any monies in court in pursuit of their lawsuit after all these years, but wondering if there was another way to get money from BS's wealth.

 

[tarabull]

Has a source reported that HS died first? I know there were reports that there was a secondary scene involving HS, I just don't remember any stating she had died first. I could of easily missed the report.
In the new reports it says the belts were tied to the railing. It,s possible tha they were tied to the posts of the railing IMO and would still be considered tied to the railing.

Looking further into this "source" for more details of this early report:

...A Toronto police source said the bodies were found Friday at the edge of their basement pool, hanging from a railing that surrounded the pool. Investigators are working on the theory that Mr. Sherman killed his wife, hung her body and then hanged himself at the pool's edge, the source said.

...Speaking to reporters outside the house, police spokesman Constable David Hopkinsonaid police did not believe there was a threat to public safety.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...n-and-wife-as-murder-suicide/article37357096/

(there seems to be a TYPO with his name...wont assume...lol.)

ETA: he is Const. David Hopkinson https://twitter.com/pc_hoppee?lang=en

ETA2: https://twitter.com/PC_Hoppee/status/941807867723747329

 

[nuff]

Looking further into this "source" for more details of this early report:

...A Toronto police source said the bodies were found Friday at the edge of their basement pool, hanging from a railing that surrounded the pool. Investigators are working on the theory that Mr. Sherman killed his wife, hung her body and then hanged himself at the pool's edge, the source said.

...Speaking to reporters outside the house, police spokesman Constable David Hopkinsonaid police did not believe there was a threat to public safety.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...n-and-wife-as-murder-suicide/article37357096/

Just had a thought about the removal of the wrist ties (and based on the latest "rumours") - could this be a double murder deliberately staged to look like a murder-suicide? The ties would have been the biggest clue that a third party was involved.

 

[Gymqunhrh1]

Is it possible that Barry was overwhelmed with guilt because he did take advantage of his uncle’s children. Professionals do not set crime scenes. They complete and disappear.

 

[Grey-St]

Just had a thought about the removal of the wrist ties (and based on the latest "rumours") - could this be a double murder deliberately staged to look like a murder-suicide? The ties would have been the biggest clue that a third party was involved.

This is what I've been speculating. Whether it was staged to look like a murder-suicide, or staged in this way because of a personal preference/message, I'm not sure.

This could have been a hit or murder for hire, with instructions from the perpetrator(s), but I'm also not ruling out that the perpetrator(s) did this on their own.

 

[nuff]

This is what I've been speculating. Whether it was staged to look like a murder-suicide, or staged in this way because of a personal preference/message, I'm not sure.

This could have been a hit or murder for hire, with instructions from the perpetrator(s), but I'm also not ruling out that the perpetrator(s) did this on their own.

Agree. And the staging could have been to damage BS's reputation as much as possible. IMO, it seems clear there was a lot of hatred & anger involved, both in the manner of death and the staging of the crime scene. (I still shiver to imagine their final moments - it doesn't bear thinking about.)