Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[Tortoise]

I wonder if the heating had been adjusted. There was a case of a British spy, Gareth Williams, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams ) whose body was found inside a padlocked bag with the key underneath him and the heating in his flat had been turned up to maximum, probably to hasten decomposition.

I was only thinking about it because it's lucky they were still able to see the Shermans' wrist markings. Had they been left undiscovered longer they may not have done, but if the room wasn't heated it might have helped preserve their bodies.

 

[Peace777]

"In "staged crime scenes," however, the presentation of the homicide victim and the manipulation of the crime scene by a clever offender could make the death appear to be a suicide. I have personally investigated many such cases and the truth of the matter is that initially, the cases did look like suicides. "
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/staging.htm

 

[ABro]

I always had a problem understanding why TPS put out in the media so quickly the murder-suicide theory. If BS killed his wife then himself what would be the motive?

As murders go, husband kills wife is a pretty common one. And it's also not unusual for outsiders to be stunned and surprised when it happens

Barry Sherman was a competitive controlling man, who has written things which provide insights into his view on the meaning of life. There's nothing about a murder/suicide scenario that seems impossible or even improbable when all this is taken into account.

The cops put murder/suicide out there because that's what they initially believed and may well still believe.

 

[Peace777]

As murders go, husband kills wife is a pretty common one. And it's also not unusual for outsiders to be stunned and surprised when it happens

Barry Sherman was a competitive controlling man, who has written things which provide insights into his view on the meaning of life. There's nothing about a murder/suicide scenario that seems impossible or even improbable when all this is taken into account.

The cops put murder/suicide out there because that's what they initially believed and may well still believe.

In this case tho I have a problem with the manner of death for the 2 victims (Barry had access to loads of pills at his disposal to commit suicide by overdose for he and his wife, easy way out and less macabre then the way they died). Also his age 75 and why at this time in his life decide to commit murder? Was there problems in the marriage? Lots of questions.
And in a suicide case life insurance isn't usually paid out to surviving children etc. Would Barry have wanted that? Just wondering out loud

 

[JayFriend]

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686

:couch: Please read with an open mind then you can rip up my post.

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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]In the above 'linked article' I read sources leaked BS & HS wrists showed evidence" ,at one point , "bound together".[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]I thought about the awkward placement of 'at one point' in the sentence.Then I took time to re-read the statement without the oddly placed "at one point" . I kept in mind the authors narrative is to to 'damm the shoddy rush to judgment by LE'. OK,with that in mind the so called evidence leaked by the legal team is conclusive,"their wrists showed evidence of being bound together". That is really damming.Investigators slam dunk their 'evidence' not by 'proving' they were bound i.e. tie wraps.But they instead prove a negative ;muddling the water so to speak. BS & HS wrists 'had' to be bound together because there was no restraining binding at the CS (i.e.)tie wraps.It's all very smoky and vague.So now LE needs to prove the legal team is wrong on their 'leaked' bombshell that BS and HS had been bound at the wrist.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]Finally I will make my point
[/FONT][/FONT]Instead of the very straight forward statement the legal team adds 'at one point'. That really is a get out of jail free card. Now it becomes just speculation by the legal investigators.There is no evidence all,it evaporates.Saying 'at some time 'literally is a tactic to try their spin their theory as fact. in the court of public opinion they have evidence that BS & HS prior to their deaths both were bound together at their wrists[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold].[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]But everyone will of course come to their own conclusion. Which is as it should be when you are giving a personal opinion.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]This is just my interpretation please feel free to critique![/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]:cow:[/FONT][/FONT]

I read that as their wrists were not bound when the bodies were discovered, but showed evidence of being bound at some time previously.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I hope the Sherman children and loved ones can eventually get past the terrible crime scene imagery and remember them as they were before this happened.

ETA: Photo from: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.the...-honey-sherman-were-murdered-sources-say.html

 

[ABro]

In this case tho I have a problem with the manner of death for the 2 victims (Barry had access to loads of pills at his disposal to commit suicide by overdose for he and his wife, easy way out and less macabre then the way they died). Also his age 75 and why at this time in his life decide to commit murder? Was there problems in the marriage? Lots of questions.
And in a suicide case life insurance isn't usually paid out to surviving children etc. Would Barry have wanted that? Just wondering out loud

Well even if we assume it's murder/suicide, we have no way of knowing if it was premeditated or in the heat of the moment.

Also, suicide with pills is not some ideal infallible way to kill yourself. There are many disadvantages.

This is an unusual case and raises many questions but the facts are that older people do kill themselves and they do kill their wives, just in lesser numbers than younger people.

None of us have any idea what the marriage was like. <modsnip>

As for insurance, that's a red herring. If you're a billionaire you don't need insurance to ensure that your family is provided for if you die unexpectedly, which is the reason 99% of the population has life insurance. Any payout would be insignificant compared to the family's other assets.

 

[JayFriend]

6) Whoever did this was showing emotional involvement with the victims. (Hate, desire to punish, etcetera) No doubt that TPS
is aware of that.

If it was a professional hit, then the hitmen would not have emotional involvement, just doing the job. But perhaps the one or ones giving the order may also have been present to witness it.

 

[Sphinx]

Have you seen it stated somewhere that the belts belonged to Barry? I assumed that too initially, but the only description I've seen is that they are men's leather belts. If the killer(s) brought something to tie the hands of their victims, then they may have brought the belts as well. It may also be meant to mislead LE, if the killer(s) actually are female. Fashion accessory as murder weapon? Just speculating, of course.

That is an interesting idea -- female killers. It would explain why a 70 yr. old woman with arthritis was able to put up such a fight, and receive bloody wounds in the process. One or two men likely would have been able to over-power her almost instantly. If one or two women approached Honey, and asked for directions, or perhaps to ask some questions about her house, which was for sale, it would have been less threatening than two men walking up to her as she got out of her car. Professional hits often, I have read, use teams. Maybe 2 or more men followed Barry, or were waiting for him, so they could have taken him by surprise, and gotten the upper hand very quickly. We have not heard that he had any defensive wounds. Since Honey and Barry could have driven separate cars, and come back from the appointment with the architect at different times, it is quite possible that there were members of the hit team, who were to kill Honey, and others, who were to kill Barry. If she were left laying dead on the front hall floor, or in the garage, he might have rushed to her assistance, only to be over-powered from behind by one or two men who were waiting for him. Just some thoughts. IMO

 

[JayFriend]

I always had a problem understanding why TPS put out in the media so quickly the murder-suicide theory. If BS killed his wife then himself what would be the motive?

I believe it was an initial reaction since most cases like this they see are murder-suicide. I don't even believe that was issued as an official statement, just something that slipped out. But then changing it to double homicide showing without evidence would have been worse and compromised the investigation. They had to assure the public was not in danger Hence not looking for suspects. For all we know, they already have suspects in mind, just not looking for new ones.

 

[Sphinx]

I heard on CBC TV news an hour ago that the private investigators said Honey had put up quite a fight as there were cuts and scrapes on her hands. They also said she was killed elsewhere as there was a pool of her blood that her body had been removed from. Also, that there were multiple people involved in the murders.

Then, there's also this which may or may not have been posted already:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686

Perhaps the cuts and scrapes came from being pushed to the ground, landing on her face, and trying to break her fall by instinctively putting her hands out in front of her, the way almost any one would. I would like to know if the pathologist found traces of dirt or asphalt in her wounds. A great deal of blood can flow from a head wound, or a bloody nose. If there was not much blood on her upper clothing, she may not have had the chance to get back up, once they had her down, and so she may not have put up as much of a " fight " as we might think. Whatever happened, I hope it happened quickly, and they both lost consciousness soon after the initial attack, so that they did not suffer for very long, but it must have still been horrendously frightening. IMO

 

[MizStery]

I read that as their wrists were not bound when the bodies were discovered, but showed evidence of being bound at some time previously.

I apologize if my post lacked clarity.

My post says exactly as you say. Perhaps I was not as clear as I could have been.

The quote from the CBC link is very clear. So I will include it so everyone can read it again:

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-HeavyItalic]BS & HS wrists showed evidence" ,at one point , "bound together".
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686[/FONT][/FONT]
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[PennyBugsDad]

I'm curious as to what legal issues were on the shoulders of the Sherman's. Seems like Apotex has been deep in dramatic legal issues for a couple of years.

 

[JDG]

In this case tho I have a problem with the manner of death for the 2 victims (Barry had access to loads of pills at his disposal to commit suicide by overdose for he and his wife, easy way out and less macabre then the way they died). Also his age 75 and why at this time in his life decide to commit murder? Was there problems in the marriage? Lots of questions.
And in a suicide case life insurance isn't usually paid out to surviving children etc. Would Barry have wanted that? Just wondering out loud

If your net worth is in the multi Billion range, do you even carry life insurance? Certainly don't need it the way John/Jane Doe would do.

 

[JDG]

I hope the Sherman children and loved ones can eventually get past the terrible crime scene imagery and remember them as they were before this happened.

ETA: Photo from: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.the...-honey-sherman-were-murdered-sources-say.html

I agree and hope they can. But, I would think that this type of family trauma would leave you forever changed. How do you ever get that sense of 'carefree' and happiness back? They have young children to raise, one sister was about to get married and I hope she goes ahead with it.

As a parent, I would want my kids to try very hard to find some sort of normality, no matter what had happened.

 

[ldlager]

Very interesting.
Looking more like a double homicide than a murder/suicide.
Kind of hard for a dead person to remove whatever was binding the wrists...

IMO

it is important to remember that bs was in fact the smartest person in the room, every day of his adult life. If he wanted to stage a ms to look like a mm (for whatever reason) he would be smart enough to be able to stage the scene convincingly. It is possible he wrapped some rope or a zip tie tightly around his wrists for about a half hour and then removed them before suicide in order to leave marks on his wrists and lead detectives towards an outside murder. He could have easily disposed of the rope or zip tie in a neighboring street or yard before suicide. Remember, apparently the cameras in the area apparently don’t show anyone coming or going, whether bs or other killers, so has as much chance of not being seen leaving the house as did the killers. Or maybe LE has found the rope in the house and PI’s haven’t been told.
i know the ms theory is not generally accepted here, and many may dismiss this outright, but bs was smart enough to be able to stage this imo.

 

[AddyFinch]

Totally possible. Another explanation of how hand ties would work
Somehow i see this brillant man who hated the limelight or drama, so if he chose suicide, it would be with a fatal elixir of his own mixing.

 

[Tighthead]

I wonder if the coroner agrees that the hands were bound at some point.

The fact that that specific detail was released makes me think it may be a point of contention.

 

[liz b.]

HS left a pool of blood in another part of the house. Was she stabbed, I wonder ?

 

[ldlager]

If it was a professional hit, then the hitmen would not have emotional involvement, just doing the job. But perhaps the one or ones giving the order may also have been present to witness it.

That is an interesting thought Jayfriend. Perhaps they were positioned as they were - from the railing, seated but not yet killed - so the person that ordered the killing could stand in front of them and speak to them. Awful to think about. Moo