Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[JDG]

O/T slightly. When one of my beautiful, young dogs died suddenly and unexpectantly after a minor procedure,
I was not happy with the explanation from the vet. He blamed the dog! My gut said that was no so. We paid for her to have a necropsy, as we needed to know what had really happened to her under his care. We got a reasonable answer for not an outrageous price from the Ontario Veterinary College. The vet was hysterical when told we wanted a necropsy, which only made them look more guilty. Needless to say, that relationship went down the drain due to the vets massive ego and a small error on their part. Small errors can prove to be fatal, can't they?

 

[andreww]

Perhaps nothing is going on that ought not to be. Perhaps the Shermans, being politically well connected were simply friends with these people.

At the time of their deaths, BS and Trudeau were being investigated by the federal government, John Tory (although he officially is United Church) is actually a Jewish man through his maternal grandmother and no doubt friends of the Shermans. Kathy Wynne as premier would be representing the Ontario government and had no doubt met the Shermans at charity events.

Any family can hire a private eye/lawyer to oversee a parallel investigation and any family can hold a second autopsy. You just have to pay for it.

These days, often times, if a family wants an autopsy they have to pay for it on their own.

Approx. 1 in 3 'coroners autopsies' are wrong, so if there is any question, its well worth paying for a second opinion. I was just reading up on that last night.

I think the word 'monitoring' is incorrect, they are following the case, along with all of us but it doesn't mean they are 'influencing' the outcome.

Both coroners would have seen the same injuries and no doubt came to the same/similar conclusions.

IF/when there is a trial, we will find out more. Until then, its evidence that must be protected in the hopes of getting a successful prosecution. THAT is what the family wants most, I can assure you.

The fact that the family did all this BEFORE the police had publicly said a word leads me to believe there was more to it. I am very skeptical that we will ever hear another word about this case. Its my opinion that cops know what happened but its not what the family, mayor, premier or PM want to hear.

And BTW, it is definitely against the rules for a mayor to speak with the police chief about an open investigation.

Read here

 

[andreww]

And furthermore, the Sherman family's PI's would have just as much access to evidence as you and I. They did have the opportunity to examine the bodies, and it is from this that they drew their conclusions. So tell me why they chose to make their findings front page news BEFORE the police had announced any findings from their very extensive investigation. I think that it has been very evident from day one that the Sherman family was not going to accept any idea of a suicide. Their parallel investigation results were so predictable, I knew what they would say before they even started investigating. The whole thing has been a media campaign to keep the Sherman name from being muddied. Sorry if that goes against all the conspiracy cases posted here, but when something smells rotten, its usually rotten. And this case stinks.

 

[AllyJane]

From the beginning I was disturbed by the family running a parallel investigation. Many have said that early on police believed this was a murder/suicide, however when the family's investigation resulted in front page headlines proclaiming that this was a murder, LE seemed to pull a 180 and announced that they two believed it was a murder. Now with news that the mayor, premier and prime minister are all monitoring this case closely, one has to wonder if the decision was made to make this a murder case just to spare the good name of a prominent citizen, knowing that it would go cold and be forever unsolved? When the family has one on one time with the mayor at the funeral, who then meets one on one with the police chief the next day, it makes me believe that something shady is going on. It would be interesting to know exactly what evidence police have that would lead them to believe this is a double murder? Do they have anything except uncertainty?

IMO with the TPS bungling of the MacArthur case and the Richey case, I am confident that they bungled the Sherman case at the beginning and I am grateful that the family has a parallel investigation. The family's team can't make up evidence. I think TPS has been sloppy with this with their tunnel vision. It also helps that the family has more resources to pay for tests and personnel that TPS are limited on. Sadly, this may be the only way to get any answers.

 

[AllyJane]

O/T slightly. When one of my beautiful, young dogs died suddenly and unexpectantly after a minor procedure,
I was not happy with the explanation from the vet. He blamed the dog! My gut said that was no so. We paid for her to have a necropsy, as we needed to know what had really happened to her under his care. We got a reasonable answer for not an outrageous price from the Ontario Veterinary College. The vet was hysterical when told we wanted a necropsy, which only made them look more guilty. Needless to say, that relationship went down the drain due to the vets massive ego and a small error on their part. Small errors can prove to be fatal, can't they?

Sorry for your dog. I work in rescue and know firsthand that there are a lot of good vets and a lot of bad ones. If you are not happy with your vet, you can lodge a complaint with the CVO. They are likely to do nothing but the more complaints about a vet, the more pressure they have to do something. I have seen vets lose their license deservedly so. I have also filed complaints against vets who didn't lose their license but deserved to. But I know my complaint will help the next person who files a complain.

I am very sorry about your loss. Please allow yourself some time to grieve and don't rule out adoption in the future.

 

[andreww]

IMO with the TPS bungling of the MacArthur case and the Richey case, I am confident that they bungled the Sherman case at the beginning and I am grateful that the family has a parallel investigation. The family's team can't make up evidence. I think TPS has been sloppy with this with their tunnel vision. It also helps that the family has more resources to pay for tests and personnel that TPS are limited on. Sadly, this may be the only way to get any answers.

Its easy to fault the police in the McArthur case, however police are limited in what they can do. They interviewed the guy and he obviously didn't act suspiciously or say anything that might cause doubt. You can't get warrants with suspicions. But whatever. You say that the family's investigators can't just make up evidence? That's not the point, it's interpretation of the evidence that is important. These investigators were hired because the family would not accept the murder/suicide theory. They were biased from the beginning, we all knew what their findings would show. Police on the other hand are unbiased. They act on what the evidence tells them, good or bad.

But believe what you will, money will buy you whatever you want in this world, and the family has made it abundantly clear what they want and they have shown that they will spend the money to get it. I'm not saying this was or wasn't a murder, just that the case has been tainted, and that I no longer true what I'm hearing or not hearing anymore.

 

[Grey-St]

Its easy to fault the police in the McArthur case, however police are limited in what they can do. They interviewed the guy and he obviously didn't act suspiciously or say anything that might cause doubt. You can't get warrants with suspicions. But whatever. You say that the family's investigators can't just make up evidence? That's not the point, it's interpretation of the evidence that is important. These investigators were hired because the family would not accept the murder/suicide theory. They were biased from the beginning, we all knew what their findings would show. Police on the other hand are unbiased. They act on what the evidence tells them, good or bad.

But believe what you will, money will buy you whatever you want in this world, and the family has made it abundantly clear what they want and they have shown that they will spend the money to get it. I'm not saying this was or wasn't a murder, just that the case has been tainted, and that I no longer true what I'm hearing or not hearing anymore.

Police are unbiased? I wholeheartedly disagree. The police can be very biased and possess tunnel vision. They're human. I'm of the opinion that this played into the initial investigation. I don't fault the family for seeing this and feeling as though they needed a parallel and independent investigation to take place. I don't believe it's because they wanted to hear a certain conclusion, I think it's that they wanted to hear the truth, and be confident that the investigation was proceeding fairly and accurately. I would have done no different if I had their resources.

They didn't make the decision to do so out of thin air. TPS may not have made any public statements until mid January, but leaks and opinions were oozing out of their organization, and that's what prompted the family to do what they did.

Ultimately, the lead detective would not have concluded this to be a double homicide if she was not confident in that decision. I'm not swayed by the theory that the government, police force and family are conspiring together to keep the family name in good standing. Gomes is a tough cookie, and takes her job seriously. I don't believe she could be convinced to do anything unethical, or be persuaded by politics or a parallel investigation. If she has concluded this to be a double homicide, then I'm confident that it is.

 

[deugirtni]

Wonder if these cuts and closures would be happening if BS was still present?

Generic drug manufacturer Apotex Pharmachem Inc. says it had to make a "painful" decision to cut 53 employees, effective immediately, at its Brantford facility while it goes through a necessary restructuring to reposition itself for the future.
....
Management told employees early Monday morning that it will close two of its five plants on Spalding Drive. Before the layoffs, the company had a workforce of 427 people.

"We decided to close two of them because they are older and inefficient and therefore under-utilized," said Berman.

"While this was a difficult decision we are moving to repurpose the facility. To retrofit those plants didn't make sense given the direction we are heading toward."

http://www.newslocker.com/en-ca/reg...ts-53-salaried-workers-in-restructuring/view/

 

[deugirtni]

And furthermore, the Sherman family's PI's would have just as much access to evidence as you and I. They did have the opportunity to examine the bodies, and it is from this that they drew their conclusions. So tell me why they chose to make their findings front page news BEFORE the police had announced any findings from their very extensive investigation. I think that it has been very evident from day one that the Sherman family was not going to accept any idea of a suicide. Their parallel investigation results were so predictable, I knew what they would say before they even started investigating. The whole thing has been a media campaign to keep the Sherman name from being muddied. Sorry if that goes against all the conspiracy cases posted here, but when something smells rotten, its usually rotten. And this case stinks.

I don't think it's fair to assume just because non-police-service investigators were hired independently, that they have no integrity, and they're all about taking the money to say what their client wishes. On the other hand, police have been known to lose timely evidence opportunities due to having tunnel vision seeking only in one direction, and they seem to have bungled enough cases, publicly that we're even aware of, nevermind the ones we are not aware of. I don't think it hurts to have a second set of eyes and minds to keep TPS on their toes. I really hate to think of cases where the families have grave doubts, yet haven't had the personal resources to hire a parallel investigation. moo.

 

[Tighthead]

Wonder if these cuts and closures would be happening if BS was still present?



http://www.newslocker.com/en-ca/reg...ts-53-salaried-workers-in-restructuring/view/

Could be trying to make it it more appealing for a sale or IPO.

 

[deugirtni]

...
Approx. 1 in 3 'coroners autopsies' are wrong, so if there is any question, its well worth paying for a second opinion. I was just reading up on that last night.
...

That sounds terribly high, do you have a link?

 

[WINDSOR]

The fact that the family did all this BEFORE the police had publicly said a word leads me to believe there was more to it. I am very skeptical that we will ever hear another word about this case. Its my opinion that cops know what happened but its not what the family, mayor, premier or PM want to hear.

And BTW, it is definitely against the rules for a mayor to speak with the police chief about an open investigation.

Read here

The Mayor is allowed to speak to the Police Chief regarding an ongoing investigation, he can ask questions and ask for updates. He can give opinions as well. That is totally acceptable. He cannot give direction or orders.

 

[JDG]

The Mayor is allowed to speak to the Police Chief regarding an ongoing investigation, he can ask questions and ask for updates. He can give opinions as well. That is totally acceptable. He cannot give direction or orders.

I believe the first error made by TPS was NO notification of next of kin. The family members were hearing that there were bodies in their parents pool room but had no idea of whom/why or if it was even true.
Failure to notify the family was the first red flag. I know it happens, if happened to me when my father died, no notification from the Police, yet they were given my phone number. They just didn't bother. Sloppy and wrong.

When they make the most basic of mistakes, of course the family, reeling from the shock/grief are going to immediately wonder how to avoid more of this fiasco.

IF one wishes to have a second autopsy, that needs to get arranged in very quick order esp. when their faith requires a burial as soon as possible.

The second, dreadful error, made by TPS was the 'source' who claimed it was M/S before the bodies were even removed from the house. That kindled rumours for weeks and was based on nothing other than often domestics end up that way. BUT not with both bodies being hung by the neck in the pool room! MSM ran with it for until mid January, when the lead investigator stated that they were both a targeted murder.

We all know the Shermans have an abundance of resources at hand but that cannot buy you 'evidence' nor will it persuade the police that pink is orange. Everyone carries their biases around with them, every day and we are ALL biased. That is life. The important part is to be able to set ones biases aside and deal with cases as you find them.

I believe the family did the right thing in hiring a 'second lens', a secondary autopsy and hopefully, it will all help in solving the case. This was not your 'run of the mill' ( if there is such a thing) murder.

Its going to be a long and tedious job but hopefully, they will get enough evidence to obtain a successful prosecution.

 

[JDG]

That sounds terribly high, do you have a link?

Yes, its an astoundingly high error rate. I was reading a lot of peer reviewed studies over the last week and cannot recall which one it was. It had to do with the decrease in autopsies over the years and how this is doing a disservice to medical students who are failing to learn from the autopsies, esp with 1 in 3 coming to the wrong conclusion. The government rules are changing, possibly to save money, regarding the need for autopsies. Medical/nursing students used to learn an awful lot from attending autopsies and that has been severely eroded over the last few years.

 

[Tighthead]

Police are supposed to lack bias, but that is pretty much a human impossibility. The politics of the job and the pressure to clear cases will often interfere. I don’t see why they wouldn’t follow the evidence in this case, and perhaps a good faith error in judgement was made. We may never know.

If an arrest is made that leads to a successful prosecution, we may learn that they did a great job with an incredibly complex case. It could also be that it wasn’t that complex and a bad start made it more difficult for them. If no arrest is made they will always be seen to have failed regardless of the complexity.

As for the private investigators, you will always have some bias to those who pay you. Anyone who has been involved with expert witnesses knows this. Facts aren’t very malleable, but opinions are.

 

[andreww]

Police are unbiased? I wholeheartedly disagree. The police can be very biased and possess tunnel vision. They're human. I'm of the opinion that this played into the initial investigation. I don't fault the family for seeing this and feeling as though they needed a parallel and independent investigation to take place. I don't believe it's because they wanted to hear a certain conclusion, I think it's that they wanted to hear the truth, and be confident that the investigation was proceeding fairly and accurately. I would have done no different if I had their resources.

They didn't make the decision to do so out of thin air. TPS may not have made any public statements until mid January, but leaks and opinions were oozing out of their organization, and that's what prompted the family to do what they did.

Ultimately, the lead detective would not have concluded this to be a double homicide if she was not confident in that decision. I'm not swayed by the theory that the government, police force and family are conspiring together to keep the family name in good standing. Gomes is a tough cookie, and takes her job seriously. I don't believe she could be convinced to do anything unethical, or be persuaded by politics or a parallel investigation. If she has concluded this to be a double homicide, then I'm confident that it is.

You can believe what you want. Simple fact is that in those early days the family had no access to the crime scene, so how would they know that it wasn't a suicide? I'll tell you something from personal experience, family's first response to a suicide is denial. Always. I have also seen police declare a suicide as a death by misadventure simply to make the situation easier on the surviving family. Gomes will do whatever her superiors tell her to do. Time will tell if I am right or wrong, but I am willing to bet that this case is destined for the cold case files and I would be very surprised if we ever get another update on it.

 

[andreww]

The Mayor is allowed to speak to the Police Chief regarding an ongoing investigation, he can ask questions and ask for updates. He can give opinions as well. That is totally acceptable. He cannot give direction or orders.

Do you know what Tory discussed in that meeting? If he just wanted a status update, you'd think a phone call would suffice?

 

[andreww]

I believe the first error made by TPS was NO notification of next of kin. The family members were hearing that there were bodies in their parents pool room but had no idea of whom/why or if it was even true.
Failure to notify the family was the first red flag. I know it happens, if happened to me when my father died, no notification from the Police, yet they were given my phone number. They just didn't bother. Sloppy and wrong.

When they make the most basic of mistakes, of course the family, reeling from the shock/grief are going to immediately wonder how to avoid more of this fiasco.

IF one wishes to have a second autopsy, that needs to get arranged in very quick order esp. when their faith requires a burial as soon as possible.

The second, dreadful error, made by TPS was the 'source' who claimed it was M/S before the bodies were even removed from the house. That kindled rumours for weeks and was based on nothing other than often domestics end up that way. BUT not with both bodies being hung by the neck in the pool room! MSM ran with it for until mid January, when the lead investigator stated that they were both a targeted murder.

We all know the Shermans have an abundance of resources at hand but that cannot buy you 'evidence' nor will it persuade the police that pink is orange. Everyone carries their biases around with them, every day and we are ALL biased. That is life. The important part is to be able to set ones biases aside and deal with cases as you find them.

I believe the family did the right thing in hiring a 'second lens', a secondary autopsy and hopefully, it will all help in solving the case. This was not your 'run of the mill' ( if there is such a thing) murder.

Its going to be a long and tedious job but hopefully, they will get enough evidence to obtain a successful prosecution.

Some people still believe that the Ramseys didn't have anything to do with killing their kid. When you have that much money and power, pink can indeed be orange, especially if the only consequence is passing a suicide off as a murder that will never be solved. Nobody gets hurt, everybody wins.

 

[hudunit]

I could have not said it better myself....I also agree on the Ramsey case.

 

[Satchie]

Could be trying to make it it more appealing for a sale or IPO.

I agree, I wonder who inherited the company, or was it left to all the children jointly? But I think it most probable they'd want to get out the business, or at least become just passive shareholders.