MistyWaters
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The media goes with whatever story is the news of the day. Kerry’s media blitz is a good example. I suppose he could be considered a “media manipulator” too.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9
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The media goes with whatever story is the news of the day. Kerry’s media blitz is a good example. I suppose he could be considered a “media manipulator” too.
I think that's jumping to conclusions. Possibly people are assuming this case was a repeat of Wayne Millards? We know Homicide was on the scene from the beginning, we know TPS spent 6 weeks going over the home, we know they collected thousands of hours of surveillance video. Greenspan focussed on a couple of minor details, but we don't know the forensic strategy so we don't know if that's of any relevance. TPS aren't going to tell us, he knows that perfectly well.
He's a defence lawyer, trying to underminine the police case is what he does for a living.
I respect you opinion, however I don’t get your unwillingness to even entertain the M/S theory. The evidence tells me that for more than a month TPS believed this was M/S. even after the autopsy. Warmington’s tweet confirmed that. The only reason that I can see for the change of direction is the opinion of a retired coroner who is working freelance for a family that is paying a team to squash that theory. I get if you choose a different theory, but you have to adit that MS is still a possibility.
MistyWaters
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Well thank you but my unwillingness to entertain the M/S theory comes from knowing nothing more than reading information published by the media. That TPS, the Court Judge who sealed warrants, the Coroner/Pathologists involved in the autopsy, the Sherman family, friends, associates and the PI team ALL believe both deaths were a result of homicide and are all directly connected to this case, I have no reason to doubt them at this time.
Other than Kerry Winter, I’ve not noticed even one other “named” person dispute the double homicide findings. As Kerry claims he wasn’t involved, had never stepped foot inside the Sherman house and refuses to disclose how he knows what he claims to know, I don’t consider him an informed source of information.
I think,it would be more correct to say "for more than a month TPS did not rule out M/S"
We don't know why that was, we can only speculate.
I think the idea that "the best defense is a good offence" goes back long before him.
MistyWaters
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That right, it’s all speculation. I could speculate that TPS doesn’t care if a whole lot of misinfirmation and innuendo led the general public to conclude one of any three theories was their determination, prior to the official announcement. And I could speculate that they have other strong evidence that has already led to a suspect so they didn’t need to focus on the process of eliminating such things as a DNA and fingerprints because the suspect who’s been identified has already been connected to the crime scene. It was only reported a couple of weeks ago that more subpoenas were approved and issued. It’s been mentioned that covert operations may be a strategy involved in this case as well.
So I could further speculate both TPS and the PI team are aware of a key critical witness who’s agreed to talk, only if money is on the table to head out of town and build a new life. It would appear very suspicious if a $10 million reward was offered for a case that on the verge of charges being laid. So in comes Greenspan, creating a necessary “this case is going nowhere soon” scenario, in justifying the reward.
All speculation.
ETA - see here, this is proof the Police Chief is in on it. (joking)
“Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders addressed Greenspan’s allegations during a news conference Friday afternoon and said the investigation undertaken by police has not been taken lightly.
“It’s not over yet. We are continuing to work very hard to reach the conclusion that we feel we can reach, with the help of the public,” he said.
The chief, however, said he is comfortable with the $10-million reward.
“Anything that helps leads to a successful conclusion is a good thing,” he said.”
$10-million reward offered in Barry, Honey Sherman murder case
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Joe Warmington:
"I’m not a reporter. I’m a columnist. It’s a big distinction that a lot of people fail to grasp. Daniel Dale, Robyn Doolittle or Don “Pistol” Peat—they’re very good reporters, those three. But they’re not columnists. They’re not supposed to shape opinion or put their opinion in. With me, I’m a reporter/columnist. I’m like a reporter, but at the same time, I might put an opinion in. I don’t have to try to make you or an editor happy about balance." Q&A: Joe Warmington, the journalist Rob Ford still likes talking to
And he gets to decide what part is reporting and what part is opinion, and he never tells us. No IMO from him, it's just all smeared together.
In short sentences.
With lots of paragraph breaks.
For me, not knowing what happened is interesting. There are many scenarios, some seem more plausible than others, but that doesn't mean the plausible ones are true: crime and detection are full of surprises. I like the process of weighing the evidence, but not knowing for sure. Once you do know for sure, it's not interesting anymore, it's just tragic.
sassyblue
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Those glass french type doors to the left of the front entry are doors leading back out to the front porch in the very front of the house. The room they are located in is the dining room.
The outdoor pool was to the rear of the living room looking towards the rear of the lot but built alongside the side of the house. The picture you posted of the living room has the view out the back towards the outdoor pool. Alongside the outdoor pool is the tennis courts above ground which are actually "on top" of the basement area where the indoor pool is located at the very back.
I'm probably not being clear but if you look at the house on satellite view with the floor plans you can see the layout better.
sassyblue
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This is the picture of the living room. So sorry...deugirtni posted it not Misty. Out those back large glass windows is the outdoor pool area.
Rewards like this are common in the USA, but I think they are discouraged in Canada simply because they generate many false leads that take up valuable police resources.
This, combined with the fact that Shermans are known to avoid paying debt, means that the money is worthless. Greenspan posturing?
BBM
No one said anything about time of death. What was said when this hit the news is that it appeared that one died before the other.
Two dead people, one dead long enough before the other that it was obvious in rigor mortis and body temperature, looks like murder/suicide. It might not be murder/suicide, but it wasn't robbery/murder.
If it wasn't suicide or robbery, next question is : who stood to inherit?
I'm not a link monkey. I'm assuming that everyone who is discussing this case is familiar with the lawsuits associated with building the house where they were found dead. Many contractors were unpaid, and even though it is a very expensive house, the Shermans got it cheap. Furthermore, Barry was deep in lawsuits throughout his life - using the law to his benefit is how he got rich.
I will look for early news links to condition of bodies tomorrow. I know that we discussed it here in the early threads.
Isn't it most likely that he killed her in the bedroom and a bit later decided that suicide was better for the family than a murder trial? Did he drag her down the stairs off the living room to the pool area?
That TPS, the Court Judge who sealed warrants, the Coroner/Pathologists involved in the autopsy, the Sherman family, friends, associates and the PI team ALL believe both deaths were a result of homicide
Up until a month after the autopsy it seemed like the coroner was undecided and Senior members of TPS (the only people having access to ALL evidence) certainly thought it was murder suicide. The family didn't believe it, but they had zero evidence when they formed their opinion, and the legal team that they hired are simply in place to reenforce that opinion.
So basically, if I have this straight, you and everybody here are basing your beliefs on the opinions of one man, a retired coroner, over the opinions formed by a team of 50 police officers?
And you don't find it strange that after a meticulous six week investigation in the house, police chose not to even eliminate persons known to be in the house by collecting samples? This is akin to someone telling you they've taken your car on a comprehensive test drive without ever having the key.
So why have TPS not done the very first task needed following evidence collection? Very likely because in six week in that house they found absolutely nothing pointing to an intruder or that supported a double murder scenario. On the other hand, we already know that they DID find evidence that supported murder/suicide theory, otherwise they wouldn't have championed the idea for more than a month. I think it is clearly obvious that after TPS announced that this was a double murder, they stopped seriously investigating this case. To say "stopped" is a bit misleading because to stop would actually mean they actually started, which they clearly didn't.
So if we are going to base our beliefs on the opinion of Greenspan's pathologist, we should all be aware of a couple of things.
- He is working for Eddie Greenspan, the person hired by the family to decry the Murder/ suicide scenario. His opinion should be considered tainted from the outset.
- His opinion that the couple was murdered due to marks on their wrists that suggested binding was reached without him ever seeing the Sherman's wrists, as the coroner had removed that skin after the first autopsy. And yet after that autopsy, TPS still believed this was M/S. So either those marks aren't as telling as advertised, or the coroner is completely incompetent.
- His opinion that the couple was strangled elsewhere and staged in the pool area is based on what? Because we know Honey Sherman certainly was, regardless of which scenario you believe. Do their injuries match, and can he say this with 100% certainty? I would guess not.
Lastly, lets talk about Kerry Winter. I feel that because he is a "Common man", a person with addictions (that he has overcome), and a man that happens to have been involved in a legal battle with Barry Sherman, that his opinion and insights have been marginalized, if not completely dismissed.
MistyWaters
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No, I don’t think anyone is basing their opinions on one man. In response to Greenspan’s press conference, this is what the Police Chief had to say. Because they have released virtually no information, nothing is strange. It’s impossible to make sense of the unknown.
BBM
“....Toronto police Chief Mark Saunders, responding to Greenspan at a late-afternoon news conference, defended his investigators, saying the probe was being conducted "to a very high level of professionalism and a high level of expertise."
While he did not address many of Greenspan's specific allegations, Saunders said a lot of work was done from the beginning to protect the integrity of the investigation. While divisional officers first took on the probe, homicide investigators were brought in to oversee the work, as was a forensic pathologist.
He also noted that more than 50 officers have worked on the case, more than 200 witnesses have been interviewed and officers have collected more than 2,000 hours of video surveillance from neighbours.
"The investigation was not taken lightly and still is not taken lightly," he said...”
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News
Otto, you say no one said anything about time of death, then you report as if it were FACT that one body was dead long enough to have differing states of rigour and body temperature. This is so wrong. Rigor is a temporary state of being, as is body temperature. The coroner/TPS have released exactly ZERO information about the state of the bodies when found a day or so later.
What YOU state as FACT is indeed rumour and speculation. Nothing more.
If you cannot/will not back it up with links to MSM, it is not credible.
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sceawian
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I think Kerry has a unique insight into this case, and I am glad he posts here. He has been through things that can be hard for others to understand. But we should remember he has admitted to embellishing and fabricating information (article). He is not a neutral party.
I say this as someone who thinks it's important to remember other people close to the case are not neutral parties either; it's impossible to be. The immediate family, and Greenspan and his team, also have a vested interest in portraying the case a certain way.
Which is all a long-winded way of saying we should always consider the context surrounding information, as well as the source!
Otto, there is NO proof that the Shermans failed to pay the contractors. There were deficiencies in the final product and the Shermans did SUE to contractors for shoddy workmanship. That IS NOT the same are not paying NOR does it make the house CHEAP. Do you not realize that everything that was wrong, had to be redone or fixed?? Do you not KNOW that retrofitting and repairing shoddy workmanship is usually double or more the original cost??
The Sherman house was definitely not cheap.
Stating that the Shermans were known for avoiding paying bills is a horrible thing to say, unless of course you have proof in the way of a link to MSM.
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