Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[deugirtni]

No way it was suicide/murder. Pretty clear the cousins dunnit... or hired someone. Question is how did they get to the police?

I'm not sure what is meant by 'how did they get to the police'?

 

[Satchie]

How would they be able to pay that amount? What if they cannot? What happens then?

Once all the court challenges are over, it might take years to pay off your own legal fees plus the costs awarded to the other side. There are various court supervised strategies the winning side uses to collect: you may have to sell assets or it might get taken off your wages. Like with any other debt, some peope declare bankruptcy.

 

[JDG]

Anyone find it odd that the reward was worded as ‘up to’ 10 million and for the arrest and ‘prosecution’ of the killer(s) not ‘conviction’?

I think that's pretty normal for all rewards in murder/criminal cases.
They won't pay up until/after a conviction so the tips better be good/true/fruitful.

 

[Tripod]

The court could have given some kind of payment options(?), not sure(?), however it is my understanding that if it is a 'judgment' from a court, if it is not paid, it will appear on one's 'credit bureau' (it may appear on there even if paid on time, I'm not really sure if it goes on there just as a matter of course, or only if it is overdue). I'm not sure how far the recipient (Sherman Estate?) would go, but I believe also that they can go after the outstanding amount.. ie, if someone didn't have the cash, but they had equity in real estate holdings, I believe they could force a sale to collect the proceeds.... but maybe someone with more knowledge can contribute to this?

Here in the U.S., in a court judgment, a lien is placed on one's property/assets in the amount of said judgment, until such time as it is paid. It can be more complex than that, but that's the simple explanation. For example, many, many years ago I had a judgment filed against me because I'd stopped being able make my car payments. I was quite young and had lost a job and had nothing. Not long after, I had a one-car accident and totaled that car ( and nearly myself..). I still had car insurance at that time, and the car lien was paid off by the insurance co. I hadn't gone all that long without making those car payments, so my car would probably have been repossessed by the dealership eventually. In a sense, I suppose I was fortunate and no, I didn't wreck on purpose This was decades ago and TMI, but a usual way for things to be done.

 

[Satchie]

Anyone find it odd that the reward was worded as ‘up to’ 10 million and for the arrest and ‘prosecution’ of the killer(s) not ‘conviction’?

I guess they're willing to pay for any tips at all, even if it just becomes a minor part of the case.

So, seems to me, Greenspan wants to ensure all leads come to him, not TPS.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Otto, there is NO proof that the Shermans failed to pay the contractors. There were deficiencies in the final product and the Shermans did SUE to contractors for shoddy workmanship. That IS NOT the same are not paying NOR does it make the house CHEAP. Do you not realize that everything that was wrong, had to be redone or fixed?? Do you not KNOW that retrofitting and repairing shoddy workmanship is usually double or more the original cost??

The Sherman house was definitely not cheap.

Stating that the Shermans were known for avoiding paying bills is a horrible thing to say, unless of course you have proof in the way of a link to MSM.

IMO, if constructing isn't done well, you can demand rectification and postpone the payment or cut the payment until it is done in a manner, you are satisfied with. Acquaintances of me, which I heard of, did that all the time, when they had their big home renovated. Small craft companies went bankrupt during/because of this. They even aren't that math genius or law expert like BS was. Though it's GER and not CA.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

“Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders addressed Greenspan’s allegations during a news conference Friday afternoon and said the investigation undertaken by police has not been taken lightly.

“It’s not over yet. We are continuing to work very hard to reach the conclusion that we feel we can reach, with the help of the public,” he said.

The chief, however, said he is comfortable with the $10-million reward.

“Anything that helps leads to a successful conclusion is a good thing,” he said.”

bbm
The public doesn't know anything from LE and so can't help in whatever way, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

So in that photo you linked, the group arrived at the opposite end of the pool from where the photo was taken. It seems it would be hard, from the brief glimpse they had before leaving in horror, they probably wouldn't have been able to tell exact details, such as how the feet were placed. The feet were probably out of sight, if the bodies had their backs to the pool and therefore the group.

ETA just wanted to add, for clarity, the buyers and their realtor ran away. The Sherman's realtor was also part of the group, and didn't run away. We don't know if she went in.

The realtor would have known of the layout of the pool area and so must have known, that the "Halloween left-overs" (who comes up with such a stupid idea to think of that, I wonder) didn't sit on the "steps to the pool", IMO.
The bodies "were on the steps leading to the pool," he told CBC News.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Indeed. It is kind of grotesque to think that both the cleaner and the 'gardener?' were IN the home with the bodies, yet completely unaware of them. If anyone had been following the activities of the household, that person may have hoped one of those people would be the first to find the bodies.

I remember vague, that the domestic staff were forbidden to care for the pool area? I was wondering at the moment about such a regulation.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Whose belts were used?Was Honey wearing a jacket,because only Barry was mentioned to have his jacket pulled down.Did the architect sense anything at the meeting.Was Barry's jacket a suit jacket?There was no mention of outdoor clothing or boots.

bbm
Their arms were drawn back, held in place by coats pulled down below their shoulders. Both were facing away from the water and fully clothed, although one of the belts seemed to have been taken from Barry’s trousers. It was impossible to tell how long they’d been dead.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[andreww]

I think that's pretty normal for all rewards in murder/criminal cases.
They won't pay up until/after a conviction so the tips better be good/true/fruitful.

The word "prosecution" is the key word. Somebody may be able to prove at some point that Barry killed Honey without doubt, but they'll never be able to prosecute him.

 

[andreww]

IMO, if constructing isn't done well, you can demand rectification and postpone the payment or cut the payment until it is done in a manner, you are satisfied with. Acquaintances of me, which I heard of, did that all the time, when they had their big home renovated. Small craft companies went bankrupt during/because of this. They even aren't that math genius or law expert like BS was. Though it's GER and not CA.

Yes, that the way it is normally done. However, in this case I don't think the problems would have been apparent until they had lived in the home for a period of time, meaning they would have had to make their payments in full. Certainly the contractors would have been contacted to rectify the issues, but due to the cost, likely refused. Thus legal action was taken.

So with the judgements it does appear the Shermans got a bargain on the house, however the judgement would likely have been spent to rectify the problems. Of course, there is also the possibility that the Shermans could have just decided to live with the issues and banked the judgement.

 

[andreww]

If in fact the family truly believes it was a double murder, it makes no sense that Greenspan would try and undermine the police case. He should be supporting and promoting the police, or am I missing something?

From the press conference it seemed like Greenspan spent a lot of time trying to pitch his services as a solution to an over burdened police department. Greenspan was careful to point out that the police missteps were the product of over stretched resources rather than incompetence. Greenspan was proposing that TPS hire him and his team to look after cases that require more time and effort.

 

[andreww]

No way it was suicide/murder. Pretty clear the cousins dunnit... or hired someone. Question is how did they get to the police?

Its pretty clear is it?

 

[deugirtni]

Kevin Donovan interviewed:

'Concerns over the security of the evidence'

 

[deugirtni]

The realtor would have known of the layout of the pool area and so must have known, that the "Halloween left-overs" (who comes up with such a stupid idea to think of that, I wonder) didn't sit on the "steps to the pool", IMO.
The bodies "were on the steps leading to the pool," he told CBC News.

There are something like 50,000 realtors registered at the Toronto Real Estate Board, and this guy was merely one of them - he was Asian and had a language barrier, and wouldn't have known what was what, and likely hadn't been inside the home before that time. His clients were superstitious and felt it was like a bad omen to come across these bodies. Sounds like this episode lost him his clients, as one of the articles states that his buyers went on to purchase a property through a different agent.

""It was a couple of days later," he said, when he learned from the news that the Shermans were actually dead.

"It was scary," he recalled.

His clients were upset, too, after finding out what they'd really seen.

"They were angry," he recalled. The agent described them as being from mainland China and superstitious. They worried witnessing such a sight was a harbinger of bad things to come.
....
"The agent says he and his clients thought they had stumbled across some kind bizarre Halloween display or a joke.

"Fake murders," is how he initially described it.

They soon left the property, refusing to believe what they saw inside the multimillion-dollar home could actually be real.
....
The agent believes the couple has been encountering health issues, but has since purchased another home in Toronto through a different agent."

Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News

 

[deugirtni]

It's interesting to wonder how the PI team will do this tips/reward thing without official police involvement/oversight. Conceivably, in such a situation, we could potentially have the murderers themselves setting up a tipline/reward system, with all tips going directly to them. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Joe Warmington ✔ @joe_warmington


Respectfully @marksaunderstps your statement that Toronto Police never said Sherman case was a murder suicide is incorrect. Knowing my column was going to describe a double homicide a senior Toronto Police officer was adamant Honey was murdered followed by Barry suicide

4:35 PM - Oct 26, 2018

Joe Warmington on Twitter

 

[MistyWaters]

bbm
The public doesn't know anything from LE and so can't help in whatever way, IMO.

I don’t think the reward is being offered to general public so they can provide “guessing” type tips. But as an example why this type of arrangement could prove fruitful, if someone had direct knowledge of the homicides, by informing the police of what they know, they risk being charged as an accomplice to the homicide which potentially causes them to keep quiet. Another reason not to say anything is risk to their own life if a criminal connection is in any way involved.

I think that’s what Greenspan eluded to when offering up the reward by the family, the large amount of money offers an incentive to such a person to enable them to protect themselves well beyond a typical witness protection program that ends with a trial.

 

[MistyWaters]

It's interesting to wonder how the PI team will do this tips/reward thing without official police involvement/oversight. Conceivably, in such a situation, we could potentially have the murderers themselves setting up a tipline/reward system, with all tips going directly to them. imo.

I thought the Chief of Police agreed to accept the invitation to also sit on the reward committee as long as the terms of reference were satisfactory to TPS? That’s what I understand this to say -

“Asked whether Toronto police would participate in a separate expert panel Greenspan is convening to assess the information that comes through the tip line, Saunders said he would want to know more about its terms of reference and whether that would stand up to the scrutiny of a court proceeding.

"If it meets that test, then definitely we will be involved," he said....”
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News