Well deugirtni, maybe that is exactly what has, in effect, been set up.....
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9
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Well deugirtni, maybe that is exactly what has, in effect, been set up.....
I believe the Greenspan reference to the entry point was linked to his statement that the TPS didn’t adequately check the locks or do testing on them. So I infer that he his referring to entry via a locked opening- presumably a door or a window perhaps.
Yes, if there were any tips implicating the immediate family, favoured friends, favoured staff of Apotex, or any tips indicating M/S, would those be passed along?
MistyWaters
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I don't think for a minute that any of the kids orchestrated this, there are many much more likely candidates, imho. I was just pointing out that it is interesting if we start getting into hiring bodies outside of our government police forces, to vet tips which will subsequently somehow be passed onto police. I can fully understand their desire to do this, given the backlogs and the seeming tunnel-vision and below-standard performance of the police in this case to date, as outlined by Greenspan during his press conference. It's just that, with the case not solved, the very people (in any such case where part is hired out) who hire the outsiders and vet the tips, could ultimately be the guilty party.... it's no wonder police would have some difficulty accepting this. What would they say if instead of the family hiring the people to vet the tips, it was the cousins? Who is to judge who would be eligible to do this sort of thing in future, if it is in fact allowed this time? Just simply interesting to consider the possibilities and potential ramifications.
And even more concerning, would those tips come in, in the first place, if the tipsters know who is heading up the reward and tiplines?
Nobody is arguing that police had a LOT of work yet to do. The problem is their big heads in having already formed an opinion only hours into it and BEFORE all of that work was done, and then their big mouths in sharing their premature opinion publicly with national media... to the detriment of the victims' reputations. Reassuring the public is *their* problem and shouldn't be at the expense of murder victims. If they aren't able to reassure the public at that early hour, then at least let the public take extra precautions. The couple murdered by arson which I posted upthread - police still to this day haven't enlightened the public about whether there was sign of forced entry - it's really not something they have to share with us. But yet the other police service seems to have handled the media well, reassured the neighbours as best they could, AND respected the dignity of the victims. TPS could perform that well too. imo.
I think the difference in this case was the fame and fortune of the victims, and the excitement/competition of the Toronto media to scoop each other on a huge story.
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During the press conference iirc Greenspan indicated the tip line would be manned independently from either the family and the PI team, although indeed the family put up the $10 million. Does anyone remember the three individulas he mentioned? One I think was a retired judge? The others I can’t remember but they were also of highly respected backgrounds iirc. If someone had an important tip, surely they’d inquire who they are speaking to and ensure they are comfortable in revealing information to the person of their choice? I don’t think it can be assumed this was set up as an anonymously answered tip line, given what’s at stake. One reason is the individual receiving the tip can become a witness who’s almost as important as the person making the tip, in the event of a criminal trial.
I’m probably in the minority but if TPS does agree to a representative on the committee I think collectively it’s an excellent idea and the very best option. Because not everyone is comfortable giving tips directly to TPS either, especially if it incriminates them in some type of accessory involvement. Others might be unwilling to approach police due to mistrust and/or prior criminal history.
And considering the current shortage of manpower that exists at TPS, how would the general public feel about TPS allocating valuable resources to man a tip line, taking time away from investigating other cases. I just don’t think that’d go over well? And yes Canada does have Crimestoppers but if it were me writing a cheque for $10 million I’d expect a high level of vetting expertise and Crimestoppers is mainly operated by volunteers with a focus on tips involving lesser crimes such as assaults and robberies.
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MistyWaters
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Yes, that “two individuals were found dead in their home due to suspicious circumstances, their identity to be announced at a later date once the autopsy is complete” certainly isn’t headline news. Especially when Twitter was already abuzz.
Well, it leads one to wonder that's for sure
I don't want to think about the kids being involved, or more specifically hiring someone. However, the murderers seemingly knew the details of the schedules of Honey and Barry, including knowing that no one would come to the house that evening, and that there weren't many days left before they left town. They gained access to the house seemingly without forced entry. They murdered both HS and BS, not just BS (which would have been much easier, just shoot him as he left work). And frankly the kids had the most to gain (financially) if both parents were deceased. I am in no way accusing the kids, and I feel tremendous empathy for them at their loss, but I am sure that TPS would have included them in their investigation as potential persons of interest.
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And it was the Sherman children who immediately and publicly disputed the early m/s rumours. Had that instead been the official death determination, there’d be no ongoing investigation. Only the murderer/s would’ve wished for that.
Dec 16th
“Our parents shared an enthusiasm for life and commitment to their family and community totally inconsistent with the rumors regrettably circulated in the media as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths," the Sherman family said in a statement released by Apotex on Saturday afternoon. "We are shocked and think it's irresponsible that police sources have reportedly advised the media of a theory which neither their family, their friends nor their colleagues believe to be true.”
"We urge the Toronto Police Service to conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, and urge the media to refrain from further reporting as to the cause of these tragic deaths until the investigation is completed."
Barry and Honey Sherman's family speak out about their sudden deaths
There's no reason to suspect any one of them, but even less to suspect all of them together. Just as an imaginary exercise, it would be one person keeping a secret, which would shock and appall the others if they knew.
But I think the preferred police methodology would be to work backward from the crime scene, to try to identify how killers got in the house, where they came from, can they identify a vehicle, where did it come from, whose was it, can it be linked to cellphone data, etc. Because having a suspect doesn't get you anywhere until you can place them at the actual crime.
For example, the hit team who killed Dan Markel are being prosecuted, but his inlaws, who allegedly ordered the hit, can't be arrested, the evidence is too weak. The only hope is that one of those in jail will tell.
For the M/S proponents, can you please tell me why the 'family' is spending so much money and creating publicity trying to solve a double homicide if you believe no M/M really occurred.
With the big conspiracy and cover-up to protect the Sherman's good name from the stigma of suicide, would the family not be better off to let things go quiet and be forgotten?
By keeping things active regarding the investigation, does the family also risk a) publicly someone discovering that it was really a suicide, b) irritating the TPS, so that the TPS comes out and says it really was a M/S or both?
If the family really wanted to cover-up the suicide, it seems to me that what they are doing is the worst thing possible.
With the big conspiracy and cover-up to protect the Sherman's good name from the stigma of suicide, would the family not be better off to let things go quiet and be forgotten?
By keeping things active regarding the investigation, does the family also risk a) publicly someone discovering that it was really a suicide, b) irritating the TPS, so that the TPS comes out and says it really was a M/S or both?
If the family really wanted to cover-up the suicide, it seems to me that what they are doing is the worst thing possible.
MistyWaters
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The question has to have been asked by TPS during this investigation as well - who was the media anonymous “police source” active in publicly attempting to sway the Sherman deaths from “suspicious” to m/s and what was their motive in doing so?
BBM
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
“Toronto police chief Mark Saunders disputed Greenspan’s characterization of the investigation, saying they never reached a premature conclusion in the case.
“At no point in time did the Toronto Police Service say this was a murder-suicide,” Saunders said in a media conference of his own. “This investigation has been done to a very high level of professionalism and high level of expertise.”
He said homicide was on the scene from the start and that a forensic pathologist was also brought in. More than 50 officers have been involved, more than 4,000 pages of documents created and over 200 witnesses interviewed. The house was searched thoroughly for more than six weeks.
He added the case is ongoing and continues to be furthered and reiterated police shared the same goal as the Sherman family -- to find the perpetrators of the crime.”
BBM
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
“Toronto police chief Mark Saunders disputed Greenspan’s characterization of the investigation, saying they never reached a premature conclusion in the case.
“At no point in time did the Toronto Police Service say this was a murder-suicide,” Saunders said in a media conference of his own. “This investigation has been done to a very high level of professionalism and high level of expertise.”
He said homicide was on the scene from the start and that a forensic pathologist was also brought in. More than 50 officers have been involved, more than 4,000 pages of documents created and over 200 witnesses interviewed. The house was searched thoroughly for more than six weeks.
He added the case is ongoing and continues to be furthered and reiterated police shared the same goal as the Sherman family -- to find the perpetrators of the crime.”
Joe Warmington tweeted recently that it was from a senior officer on the TPS where he received his information on that first day. I wonder if this officer is someone Warmington normally utilizes for his information, and/or if he has followed up with that same officer since then? I'm wondering if the communication was by phone or.. other means.. and if there is a possibility that someone else with their own personal agenda may have called him up and *said* it was a certain officer, when it was really someone else calling?
Secondly, this 'senior Toronto Police officer', how involved in the investigation *was* he/she? Enough to *know* the inside scoop, or just enough to participate in the rumors flying? In any case, it doesn't seem that fair to expect Chief Saunders to take responsibility for something said by one of his staff, when the staff is not even being named - how can he therefore answer to that? This 'senior officer' was obviously not authorized to speak on behalf of TPS (and there is likely good reason for that!). But those that were, such as the officer meeting with media at the house that same evening, and Detective Price, both led the media and public to believe that the murderer was somehow not worthy of apprehension for some reason, since both clearly reported on live national television that no suspect was outstanding.
It actually doesn't say anywhere that these or this unauthorized comment was spoken by 'people actually in the field and doing the investigation'. Seems that rather, it was simply the 'talk of the town', with the 'town' being the TPS. I might start to envision TPS as being cunning and allowing rumor as a strategy in perhaps making the perp think they weren't onto what really happened, however somehow I am just not feeling that confident about them at this point, given the other major incidents of incompetence which have come to light in recent months. Now, it appears they made a mistake in judgment and are simply backpeddling. The upsetting part is that they refuse to own their mistake. imo.
MistyWaters
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What I think is sort of fascinating is Warmington doesn’t name the Senior Police Officer. If this person was speaking on behalf of TPS and was involved in the early investigation and if Warmington knew who this officer is, what’s the reason Warmington doesn’t outrightly prove Saunders wrong?
And what exactly is a “Senior” Police Officer, in an organization where title by rank is the practise? The thing is, it’s not as if the media (nor the public) has a TPS directory listing the name and rank of every officer to double check a police source, on the off chance one of them decides to leak confidential information.
Or did Warmington receive an anonymous email or phone call from someone only claiming they were a Senior Police officer, which TPS has no control over. But if someone was impersonating a police officer in their contact with the media, that’s a crime whether or not the individual’s motive is also directly connected to the actual homicides.
So maybe Warmington took the opportunity to let it publicly slip, this questionable source - this person who knows who they are might be sweating a little bit maybe?
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MistyWaters
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Kerry are you still with us?
I recall a thread or more ago, you wrote here that your source for your m/s theory was a retired police officer whom your girlfriend spoke with outside the Sherman residence, following the discovery of the bodies. Is that correct? Otherwise I will look for your earlier post.
Because I was just thinking about your mention of a “retired” police officer and Warmington’s reference to a “Senior” Police Officer, maybe just a coincidence but retired and senior are often synonymous.
I recall a thread or more ago, you wrote here that your source for your m/s theory was a retired police officer whom your girlfriend spoke with outside the Sherman residence, following the discovery of the bodies. Is that correct? Otherwise I will look for your earlier post.
Because I was just thinking about your mention of a “retired” police officer and Warmington’s reference to a “Senior” Police Officer, maybe just a coincidence but retired and senior are often synonymous.
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