Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[otto]

As requested, news link that Honey was killed first:

"There are indications that Honey Sherman was killed first, Toronto Sun reported.
...

As for the possibility of a murder-suicide, which police have not yet confirmed, the Toronto Sun indicated that police sources believe Honey may have been killed first. “Sources close to the case believe Honey may have been killed in a secondary location in the $6.9 million Old Colony Rd. house and then moved to the location where she was later found with her deceased husband,” reported the Toronto newspaper. The Sun reported that police sources say there was no evidence anyone else had been in the home or that there was forced entry."​

Honey Sherman: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

 

[ldlager]

For virtually every piece of information about this case published by the media, it seems to becoming possible to find a contradiction.

This was reported yesterday, just prior to the press conferences. The realtor states the bodies were positioned on the steps leading to the pool, thought it was some sort of leftover Halloween joke.


The Toronto real estate agent who found the bodies of billionaire drug czar Barry Sherman and his wife Honey thought the scene was a Halloween hangover.

The deaths of the prominent couple have rattled the intersection of Canadian business, society and politics raising two questions: Why? and Who?

“This is a joke, something left over from Halloween,” the agent told CBC News, asking the network not to identify him.......

.......My clients weren’t really interested in the pool,” the agent said, adding they had a peak anyway. “We could see through the large glass door. [The bodies] were on the steps leading to the pool.”

He thought to himself: “What’s with these rich people … who does this?”.....”
Agent who found Shermans dead thought bodies were Halloween prank

ETA - this was originally reported by CBC and included another interesting detail iirc but I can’t find it. I think CBC overwrote it with yesterday’s press conference. The realtor and his clients arrived slightly early and were let in the house by the housekeeper. Then Shermans realtor arrived shortly thereafter. Did either use the lockbox, was the key still in the lockbox, we don’t know.

Misty I believe that if you look at the picture of the pool area you will see that the railing was next to the steps. We know they were hanging on the railing, and it was widely reported that their feet were positioned away from the pool. I think the reference to the steps is simply a language issue with the realtor. Imo

 

[otto]

Otto, there is NO proof that the Shermans failed to pay the contractors. There were deficiencies in the final product and the Shermans did SUE to contractors for shoddy workmanship. That IS NOT the same are not paying NOR does it make the house CHEAP. Do you not realize that everything that was wrong, had to be redone or fixed?? Do you not KNOW that retrofitting and repairing shoddy workmanship is usually double or more the original cost??

The Sherman house was definitely not cheap.

Stating that the Shermans were known for avoiding paying bills is a horrible thing to say, unless of course you have proof in the way of a link to MSM.

I'm of the opinion that getting a $2.3 million house for $300,000 is getting the house cheap. Although the Shermans were successful in this lawsuit, as well as those related to the family business, I see this more as good lawyering to avoid debt than being in the right. We could delve into the decades of lawsuits where the Shermans sought to avoid payments, but that doesn't really help to understand the deaths.

"By the time the court battles were resolved, the couple recouped close to $2 million of the estimated $2.3-million construction costs."

Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman

 

[ldlager]

This is the photo I’m thinking of. Somewhere in a detailed description I think I recall the double glass door that’s just to the left of the main front door is the entrance to the pool area. It does appear to be a pool behind the glass. Does that align with the floor plan?

View attachment 153182

Source:
Building of Sherman’s North York dream home was a ‘disaster’ that led to litigation

The indoor pool is in the basement and cannot be seen from the first floor. Maybe the reference is to the outdoor pool...

 

[ldlager]

I think that's jumping to conclusions. Possibly people are assuming this case was a repeat of Wayne Millards? We know Homicide was on the scene from the beginning, we know TPS spent 6 weeks going over the home, we know they collected thousands of hours of surveillance video. Greenspan focussed on a couple of minor details, but we don't know the forensic strategy so we don't know if that's of any relevance. TPS aren't going to tell us, he knows that perfectly well.

He's a defence lawyer, trying to underminine the police case is what he does for a living.

If in fact the family truly believes it was a double murder, it makes no sense that Greenspan would try and undermine the police case. He should be supporting and promoting the police, or am I missing something?

 

[Satchie]

I'm of the opinion that getting a $2.3 million house for $300,000 is getting the house cheap. Although the Shermans were successful in this lawsuit, as well as those related to the family business, I see this more as good lawyering to avoid debt than being in the right. We could delve into the decades of lawsuits where the Shermans sought to avoid payments, but that doesn't really help to understand the deaths.

"By the time the court battles were resolved, the couple recouped close to $2 million of the estimated $2.3-million construction costs."

Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman

Thanks for the reminder. I think it's been mentioned before as a possible motive, that someone who had been seriously burned by this lawsuit, perhaps blamed the Sherman's for their business failures, might have decided to get revenge when they saw the house was for sale for $7 million. It would explain why Honey was targetted, and why it was staged so dramatically inside the home, unlike some of the other theories.

 

[human]

Barry was how old? I get the feeling he was not an athlete. I get the feeling he stayed at his desk for hours everyday of his life.

What kind of muscle strength would he have? Muscles start going downhill and at that age, Barry would be fairly week unless he worked out with weights. Perhaps he was a raving exercise fanatic.

If not, I would really like to see the out of shape elderly man who could haul a body like Honey a big distance and set her up as a suicide.

And yes! I am elderly myself. My husband is pretty strong cuz of things such as construction. Even he would have a hard time hauling that kind of weight around

 

[JDG]

Barry was how old? I get the feeling he was not an athlete. I get the feeling he stayed at his desk for hours everyday of his life.

What kind of muscle strength would he have? Muscles start going downhill and at that age, Barry would be fairly week unless he worked out with weights. Perhaps he was a raving exercise fanatic.

If not, I would really like to see the out of shape elderly man who could haul a body like Honey a big distance and set her up as a suicide.

And yes! I am elderly myself. My husband is pretty strong cuz of things such as construction. Even he would have a hard time hauling that kind of weight around

Barry was 75 and always 'tired', needed a lot of sleep his whole life. Doubtful he did any exercise programs. He was overweight and I agree, muscle mass is being lost as is some strength at that age. I don't think he could have hauled a dead body anywhere, never mind hang her upright. Honey was 'stocky' build and had been athletic before multiple surgeries for arthritis. Doubt she could have done it to him either.

 

[Satchie]

If in fact the family truly believes it was a double murder, it makes no sense that Greenspan would try and undermine the police case. He should be supporting and promoting the police, or am I missing something?

I picked up some strong hidden agendas in that news conference. They're just human nature, not nefarious.

Briefly, the family still blame police for even being open to possibility of M/S, and wish TPS had declared homicide immediately. So they want everyone to believe that was due to TPS incompetence, rather than police following the same procedure they would follow in any other similar case with a similar ambiguous crime scene.

Secondly, police aren't sharing information with the family's team, so the team can't really do very much but twiddle their expensive thumbs. Greenspan wants to force them to open up the case to scrutiny by declaring them incompetent to do it by themselves.

Third, police are processing the crime just like any other, not giving it top priority for DNA analysis, for eg. Greenspan is trying to force TPS to allow the family to jump the queue by paying themselves for analysis in the US, just like they go to the US and pay millions for faster healthcare.

 

[JDG]

I picked up some strong hidden agendas in that news conference. They're just human nature, not nefarious.

Briefly, the family still blame police for even being open to possibility of M/S, and wish TPS had declared homicide immediately. So they want everyone to believe that was due to TPS incompetence, rather than police following the same procedure they would follow in any other similar case with a similar ambiguous crime scene.

Secondly, police aren't sharing information with the family's team, so the team can't really do very much but twiddle their expensive thumbs. Greenspan wants to force them to open up the case to scrutiny by declaring them incompetent to do it by themselves.

Third, police are processing the crime just like any other, not giving it top priority for DNA analysis, for eg. Greenspan is trying to force TPS to allow the family to jump the queue by paying themselves for analysis in the US, just like they go to the US and pay millions for faster healthcare.

In Canada, all evidence must go to court via the prosecutors office and not be shared with ANYONE.

Greenspan was trying to say he had offered a two-way exchange but that TPS had ignored him. He knows the system and how it plays out.

IMO, he was trying to embarrass the TPS for whatever reasons. Once again, he knows the system and how it rolls.

As long as TPS 'is on it' and not dead ending the case, we can wait. I'd rather see a properly conducted investigation and possibly a conviction than someone get away with these atrocious murders.

 

[Shlock Homes]

What I find strange about the police response is the lack of reaching out to the public. Almost every week, when a crime occurs, they are either releasing suspect descriptions, and if they have it, possible timelines for people to report seeing anything suspicious, and video footage of suspicious vehicles or people of interest caught on surveillance cameras.
Since the Sherman's lived in a fairly well-to-do neighborhood, I don't believe there's not a single home in the area that didn't record cars coming and going. The people who did this were not ghosts, and even if the Sherman's security was not activated, that doesn't mean the rest of the neighborhood did the same. I can see the frustration from the family's point of view. The silence from the police is almost like they don't want to mention the case anymore in the hopes that people will forget about it.
I know there were some high profile murders this past year in the city since the Sherman murders, specifically the mass killings with the van and the danforth shootings, but it just seems strange the police would not utter a peep to try to jog people's memories on this case.

 

[MistyWaters]

What I find strange about the police response is the lack of reaching out to the public. Almost every week, when a crime occurs, they are either releasing suspect descriptions, and if they have it, possible timelines for people to report seeing anything suspicious, and video footage of suspicious vehicles or people of interest caught on surveillance cameras.
Since the Sherman's lived in a fairly well-to-do neighborhood, I don't believe there's not a single home in the area that didn't record cars coming and going. The people who did this were not ghosts, and even if the Sherman's security was not activated, that doesn't mean the rest of the neighborhood did the same. I can see the frustration from the family's point of view. The silence from the police is almost like they don't want to mention the case anymore in the hopes that people will forget about it.
I know there were some high profile murders this past year in the city since the Sherman murders, specifically the mass killings with the van and the danforth shootings, but it just seems strange the police would not utter a peep to try to jog people's memories on this case.

Early media reports indicated LE canvassed the neighbourhood and collected video. Only when LE is totally baffled do they plead for tips from the public. The $10 million reward just announced ought to offer far more incentive. This isn’t a case that requires additional public exposure. Many folllowers of other WS threads, even US cases express the same concern, why isn’t LE talking to us more about the case? It seems to be more common they don’t than do.

This recent article may be helpful. Not only are LE not talking, but the court Judge is also protecting the confidentiality of their ongoing investigation.

Sherman murder probe obtains seven more search warrants | The Star

 

[deugirtni]

What I find strange about the police response is the lack of reaching out to the public. Almost every week, when a crime occurs, they are either releasing suspect descriptions, and if they have it, possible timelines for people to report seeing anything suspicious, and video footage of suspicious vehicles or people of interest caught on surveillance cameras.
Since the Sherman's lived in a fairly well-to-do neighborhood, I don't believe there's not a single home in the area that didn't record cars coming and going. The people who did this were not ghosts, and even if the Sherman's security was not activated, that doesn't mean the rest of the neighborhood did the same. I can see the frustration from the family's point of view. The silence from the police is almost like they don't want to mention the case anymore in the hopes that people will forget about it.
I know there were some high profile murders this past year in the city since the Sherman murders, specifically the mass killings with the van and the danforth shootings, but it just seems strange the police would not utter a peep to try to jog people's memories on this case.

As I posted earlier, it almost seems to convey arrogance on the part of TPS, in that they seem to believe they are *that* good that they don't need to bother with the formalities of even appearing to investigate with minds open to wherever the evidence may take them. If we are to believe the mainstream reporters on this case, it seems they were told by unnamed police sources that TPS was going on the theory of M/S, rightly or wrongly, in the first hours, days, and perhaps even weeks. For me, there is really no reason *not* to believe them (Warmington, Donovan, et al). I don't *want* to believe that it's true that TPS slacked off on this investigation because they were preoccupied with trying to form their 'vision' into their premade 'tunnel', even after so many screwups from historical tunnel vision - and not just from TPS, but likely from most police services. It does for sure seem that in other cases, police welcome and ask for info and footage, etc., from the public, which seems to be absent in this case. On the other hand, it has been reported that police have gone around to neighbouring homes in person, to ask for any video footage, so perhaps *that* is why they feel they don't need to publicly request it? The only thing with that is, did they go to everyone? Is there someone overseeing that every home was reached, and those who weren't home at the time, were revisited? Did they bother to examine any footage they were given?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Anyone find it odd that the reward was worded as ‘up to’ 10 million and for the arrest and ‘prosecution’ of the killer(s) not ‘conviction’?

 

[deugirtni]

Please set me straight if my understanding is wrong, however it is my understanding that a Jew does not necessarily have to be religious or attend synagogue or even believe in God, in order to still be a Jew, and a supporter of the Jewish cause. In my mind, Jews are a 'people' with a shared history and culture which doesn't change if one happens to be an Atheist. The Shermans were very well known and loved within the Jewish community in Toronto and they donated millions to various Jewish causes. From appearances, it seems the Sherman children were raised in Jewish tradition. I have found it somewhat disturbing at times when I have read things on the thread along the lines of - since B was an atheist, he wouldn't have cared about certain things, or certain things wouldn't have mattered to him. I beg to disagree.

“Jewish people don’t kill themselves very often but no Jewish person would kill themselves during Hanukkah,” said Sherman’s friend Dr. Charles McVety, of Canada Christian College. “I know Barry. No way did this happen like that. It’s not possible.”
WARMINGTON: Did cops mislead, bungle or capitulate in Sherman ‘murder’ probe?

 

[deugirtni]

I find all of the particular timing aspects interesting:
-it was one of the last days in which both B & H would be together as a target in the home, since H was leaving the country within the next few days, with B joining her a little later, and both not to return for a couple of weeks
-police apparently believe the couple were murdered during the evening/night of the Wednesday, which was the 2nd day of Hanukkah (2017 Hanukkah started on the Tuesday evening at sundown)
-the home had just recently been listed for sale on the open market with photos available online, also perhaps a detailed floorplan of the home, a lockbox with housekey was installed on the home, and showings to prospective purchasers were taking place, as well as perhaps an open house
-only 6 days earlier, the courts had ruled that the cousins were to pay $300K in costs to the Shermans, in what I believe would have felt like a further slap in the face after losing a decade-long court battle 2 months earlier

 

[deugirtni]

Anyone find it odd that the reward was worded as ‘up to’ 10 million and for the arrest and ‘prosecution’ of the killer(s) not ‘conviction’?

I think it is a good thing, because it means it won't necessarily be payable to only one party. There may be a few persons who might have information leading to 'prosecution', which i believe would share in the proceeds. I also think it is a good thing that it is worded 'prosecution' as opposed to 'conviction', since nobody can determine how a judge or a jury will rule - the payout will be based on the good-faith effort in prosecuting - ie spilling details, and following through, perhaps meaning as a witness on the stand in a future criminal court case. They might get someone not wanting to be identified to the 'perp', calling with a tip, but which is good enough to get the ball rolling in an arrest/prosecution - that person may still qualify to collect on a portion of the monies - maybe they would get more if they would also appear in court... I wonder how the particulars are all set up.

 

[Aquamom]

No way it was suicide/murder. Pretty clear the cousins dunnit... or hired someone. Question is how did they get to the police?

 

[human]

I find all of the particular timing aspects interesting:
-it was one of the last days in which both B & H would be together as a target in the home, since H was leaving the country within the next few days, with B joining her a little later, and both not to return for a couple of weeks
-police apparently believe the couple were murdered during the evening/night of the Wednesday, which was the 2nd day of Hanukkah (2017 Hanukkah started on the Tuesday evening at sundown)
-the home had just recently been listed for sale on the open market with photos available online, also perhaps a detailed floorplan of the home, a lockbox with housekey was installed on the home, and showings to prospective purchasers were taking place, as well as perhaps an open house
-only 6 days earlier, the courts had ruled that the cousins were to pay $300K in costs to the Shermans, in what I believe would have felt like a further slap in the face after losing a decade-long court battle 2 months earlier

How would they be able to pay that amount? What if they cannot? What happens then?

 

[deugirtni]

How would they be able to pay that amount? What if they cannot? What happens then?

The court could have given some kind of payment options(?), not sure(?), however it is my understanding that if it is a 'judgment' from a court, if it is not paid, it will appear on one's 'credit bureau' (it may appear on there even if paid on time, I'm not really sure if it goes on there just as a matter of course, or only if it is overdue). I'm not sure how far the recipient (Sherman Estate?) would go, but I believe also that they can go after the outstanding amount.. ie, if someone didn't have the cash, but they had equity in real estate holdings, I believe they could force a sale to collect the proceeds.... but maybe someone with more knowledge can contribute to this?