Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[MistyWaters]

Joe Warmington on Twitter

Interesting. Just my opinion but it’s often an indication of a disfunctional organization when employees take the liberty of talking anonymously to the media. Obviously every member of TPS is required to sign a confidentiality agreement. If a police officer is indeed offering what appears to be inside information to the media, what’s to prevent them from talking about active cases to friends, neighbours and people on the street? What comes next, kickbacks and bribes?

Is Saunders not somewhat concerned about anonymous information attributed to have come from within his police force? Giving him the benefit of a doubt, he may have been taken by surprise by all that was said by Greenspan during his press conference. But I doubt it’s possible to shovel it back under the rug.

 

[casesensitive]

I agree. I went back to the 1st thread and followed one of the links:

"Police said later Friday evening that they are not currently seeking any suspects but are keeping an open mind on all possibilities.

“We did not observe any signs of forced entry into the building and so at this point indications are that we have no outstanding suspect to be going after,”‘ Det. Brandon Price told reporters.

“We will be getting a lot more answers tomorrow (Saturday) following the post-mortem examinations.”

2 found dead in Toronto home of Apotex chairman Barry Sherman

The detective uses a lot of qualifiers like an 'open mind' and 'at this point' which get stripped out by reporters, including websleuths reporters.

LE also used the word "suspicious" as the investigation continued. But we know that for the next month, they applied for warrants based on the homicide of Honey Sherman only. There was much discussion on what that really implied, and Greenspan made it clear today at the press conference, that it emphatically meant that TPS still considered the case a murder/suicide. Classic example of tunnel vision imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

...my point is merely regardless of whether LE meant there was no evidence of anyone else in the house when they were killed OR when they were found, neither is true.

Please disregard my post, I am sorry also (ETA: & frustrated)

I knew what you meant.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree. I went back to the 1st thread and followed one of the links:

"Police said later Friday evening that they are not currently seeking any suspects but are keeping an open mind on all possibilities.

“We did not observe any signs of forced entry into the building and so at this point indications are that we have no outstanding suspect to be going after,”‘ Det. Brandon Price told reporters.

“We will be getting a lot more answers tomorrow (Saturday) following the post-mortem examinations.”

2 found dead in Toronto home of Apotex chairman Barry Sherman

The detective uses a lot of qualifiers like an 'open mind' and 'at this point' which get stripped out by reporters, including websleuths reporters.

Then when the post-mortem results were announced, a press release was issued stating the cause of death for both was ligature neck compression. That was it, there wasn’t a lot more answers.

Barry and Honey Sherman died of ligature neck compression: Police

 

[casesensitive]

Interesting. Just my opinion but it’s often an indication of a disfunctional organization when employees take the liberty of talking anonymously to the media. Obviously every member of TPS is required to sign a confidentiality agreement. If a police officer is indeed offering what appears to be inside information to the media, what’s to prevent them from talking about active cases to friends, neighbours and people on the street? What comes next, kickbacks and bribes?

Is Saunders not somewhat concerned about anonymous information attributed to have come from within his police force? Giving him the benefit of a doubt, he may have been taken by surprise by all that was said by Greenspan during his press conference. But I doubt it’s possible to shovel it back under the rug.

Misty, what anonymous, inside information from a TPS police officer was given to the media? Seriously, I'm racking my brain trying to remember.

 

[MistyWaters]

Misty, what anonymous, inside information from a TPS police officer was given to the media? Seriously, I'm racking my brain trying to remember.

The m/s investigation was said to be from a “police source”. Also in the tweet I quoted -
Twitter

It wasn’t necessarily accurate inside information, but I can understand why police sources offering anonymous information, it would be perceived as accurate.

 

[Kaley Smith]

But, they say the setup at the pool was staged. Soooo, he wasn't seeing anything.

You don't think the killer(s) might have made Barry watch while they put his wife by the pool?

 

[Kaley Smith]

Not sure if this article is too speculative, but here's one guy's discussion of the possible scenarios:
Frank Forensics: Who Killed Barry and Honey Sherman? | Frank Magazine Ottawa

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Misty, what anonymous, inside information from a TPS police officer was given to the media? Seriously, I'm racking my brain trying to remember.

I will try to find the part. I remember a statement taken by "not named" police source/s, expressly mentioned in some newspaper.
ETA: (Not yet the sentences, I searched for, but another one)
Two Canadian newspapers reported that police were investigating the deaths as a possible murder-suicide, citing unidentified police sources.

Read more: Did Billionaire Jewish Philanthropist Kill Wife In Murder Suicide?

 

[MistyWaters]

You don't think the killer(s) might have made Barry watch while they put his wife by the pool?

That’s a good possibility. Another reason could be connected to a disbolical revenge motive and in staging of the bodies it was intended that both of the victims be readily recognizable, anticipating the sensationalistic nature of the breaking news. Which did in fact occur as their identity became known almost immediately after discovery.

As well, in staging a suicide the killer might’ve assumed it would appear more convincing if someone who normally wore glasses would’ve also required them to tie the belt to the railing.

 

[dotr]

rbbm.
The rarity of "unusual" [corrected] dispositions of victim bodies: staging and posing. - PubMed - NCBI
"The act of leaving a victim's body in an unusual position is a conscious criminal action by an offender to thwart an investigation, shock the finder and investigators of the crime scene, or give perverted pleasure to the killer. The unusual position concepts of posing and staging a murder victim have been documented thoroughly and have been accepted by the courts as a definable phenomenon. One staging case and one posing case are outlined and reveal characteristics of those homicides. From the Washington State Attorney General's Homicide Investigation and Tracking System's database on murder covering the years 1981-2000 (a total of 5,224 cases), the relative frequency of unusual body dispositions is revealed as a very rare occurrence. Only 1.3% of victims are left in an unusual position, with 0.3% being posed and 0.1% being staged. The characteristics of these types of murders also set them apart: compared to all other murders, in staged murders the victims and killers are, on average, older. All victims and offenders in the staged murders are white, with victims being disproportionately white in murders with any kind of unusual body disposition. Likewise, females stand out as victims when the body is posed, staged, or left in other unusual positions. Whereas posed bodies are more likely to include sexual assault, often in serial murders, there is no evidence of either in the staged cases. Lastly, when a body is left in an unusual position, binding is more likely, as well as the use of more "hands on" means of killing the victim, such as stabbing or cutting weapons, bludgeons, ligatures, or hands and feet."

 

[sceawian]

"In 2014 Chancellor and Grant described three types of staging considering its purpose: primary staging: the aim of the offender is to divert police investigation from himself; secondary staging: the intent of the offender is to shock society, degrade the victim’s body or to enhance any symbolic or ritual meaning; tertiary staging: it is not carried out by the offender, but usually by one of the victim’s relatives. The goal of the tertiary staging is to reduce humiliation of the victim or to minimize the embarrassment of the family. The same authors sub-classified the primary staging in ad hoc staging (the murderer alters the scene after the crime) and premeditated staging (the murderer acts before the crime in order to mislead the investigation).

...Several authors agreed that two of the most common types of staging consist of the alteration of the crime scene as a sexual homicide or a suicide.

...Another important aspect of staging is that the offender usually has a relationship with the decedent.

Hazelwood and Napier stated that staging may take place by simply lying verbally or in writing about facts or circumstances or by physically rearranging a scene, body, or property... Thus, according to the literature, there are two modalities for the staging process: verbally or physically."

BBM. From Luperiello et al. (2018) WARNING - graphic images.

 

[sceawian]

Sorry for all the literature, but there's a ton of interesting information in these articles. This one's worth a full read if you have the time. BBM, from Ferguson and Petherick (2014):

"Homicides staged as suicides were much more often perpetrated by males in this sample than females. No offenders were known to be currently or previously associated with law enforcement occupations.

... deaths by hanging or suffocation happened more often in the small staged sample than the much larger CDC sample of actual suicides. Therefore, the use of a firearm by a female, or the supposed hanging or asphyxiation death of either a male or a female, should be examined in more detail in future analyses.

...In this study, the relationship between the victim and offender was often friends or non-domestic family members, along with domestic relationships. This is an interesting finding as traditionally staged scenes have been thought to involve mostly intimate or domestic partners.

...Although offender “discovery” was also common here, discovery of the staged suicide victim was much more evenly distributed across both offenders and innocent parties.

...The body was not often transported away from the primary scene but was often re-arranged or re-positioned at the primary scene of the homicide. From an investigative standpoint, any indication that a weapon or the body has been re-arranged or re-positioned post- or peri-mortem as indicated by movements through blood, positioning of clothing and hair, inconsistent livor or rigor mortis, and the like may be considered an element of suspicion."

 

[MistyWaters]

Sorry for all the literature, but there's a ton of interesting information in these articles. This one's worth a full read if you have the time. BBM, from Ferguson and Petherick (2014):

"Homicides staged as suicides were much more often perpetrated by males in this sample than females. No offenders were known to be currently or previously associated with law enforcement occupations.

... deaths by hanging or suffocation happened more often in the small staged sample than the much larger CDC sample of actual suicides. Therefore, the use of a firearm by a female, or the supposed hanging or asphyxiation death of either a male or a female, should be examined in more detail in future analyses.

...In this study, the relationship between the victim and offender was often friends or non-domestic family members, along with domestic relationships. This is an interesting finding as traditionally staged scenes have been thought to involve mostly intimate or domestic partners.

...Although offender “discovery” was also common here, discovery of the staged suicide victim was much more evenly distributed across both offenders and innocent parties.

...The body was not often transported away from the primary scene but was often re-arranged or re-positioned at the primary scene of the homicide. From an investigative standpoint, any indication that a weapon or the body has been re-arranged or re-positioned post- or peri-mortem as indicated by movements through blood, positioning of clothing and hair, inconsistent livor or rigor mortis, and the like may be considered an element of suspicion."

I agree, the literature found online pertaining to staging is really interesting. Another I was reading described a staged crime scene as something which represents lies and deception. And how it’s critical that detectives are able to identify a staged crime scene in a similar manner to determining if a person who they speak with lies and deceives.

 

[JayFriend]

Christie Blatchford: It’s a safe bet Sherman family lawyer has ‘lit the fire’ under Toronto police

Christie Blatchford: It’s a safe bet Sherman family lawyer has ‘lit the fire’ under Toronto police

 

[deugirtni]

rbbm.
The rarity of "unusual" [corrected] dispositions of victim bodies: staging and posing. - PubMed - NCBI
"The act of leaving a victim's body in an unusual position is a conscious criminal action by an offender to thwart an investigation, shock the finder and investigators of the crime scene, or give perverted pleasure to the killer. The unusual position concepts of posing and staging a murder victim have been documented thoroughly and have been accepted by the courts as a definable phenomenon. One staging case and one posing case are outlined and reveal characteristics of those homicides. From the Washington State Attorney General's Homicide Investigation and Tracking System's database on murder covering the years 1981-2000 (a total of 5,224 cases), the relative frequency of unusual body dispositions is revealed as a very rare occurrence. Only 1.3% of victims are left in an unusual position, with 0.3% being posed and 0.1% being staged. The characteristics of these types of murders also set them apart: compared to all other murders, in staged murders the victims and killers are, on average, older. All victims and offenders in the staged murders are white, with victims being disproportionately white in murders with any kind of unusual body disposition. Likewise, females stand out as victims when the body is posed, staged, or left in other unusual positions. Whereas posed bodies are more likely to include sexual assault, often in serial murders, there is no evidence of either in the staged cases. Lastly, when a body is left in an unusual position, binding is more likely, as well as the use of more "hands on" means of killing the victim, such as stabbing or cutting weapons, bludgeons, ligatures, or hands and feet."

I'm not sure I'm understanding the differences between staging and posing??

 

[JDG]

Posing of the body and staging of the scene. In a violent rape/murder, the body may be positioned 'just so' which is posing. Staging the scene might include trying to make it look like a robbery gone wrong when it was no such thing.

 

[dotr]

Just some random questions.
Were the Sherman's feet pointed towards a door?
Did the Shermans each have eyes open when the bodies were found?

Wondering how BS's eyeglasses managed to stay on?
Accept Terms and Conditions on JSTOR

 

[MistyWaters]

Posing of the body and staging of the scene. In a violent rape/murder, the body may be positioned 'just so' which is posing. Staging the scene might include trying to make it look like a robbery gone wrong when it was no such thing.

I think so too. WMs body may have been repositioned (or posed) to make it appear he fired the suicidal gunshot. In the Sherman case, as neither died by suicide as a direct result of the belt attached to the railing with coats restraining their arms, staging was involved. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Just some random questions.
Were the Sherman's feet pointed towards a door?
Did the Shermans each have eyes open when the bodies were found?

Wondering how BS's eyeglasses managed to stay on?
Accept Terms and Conditions on JSTOR

I don’t think it’s known that BSs eyeglasses “stayed on”. It was mentioned by Greenspan as a red flag, a possible indication of staging, in that he was wearing his glasses, his legs straight and crossed at the ankle. IMO It was used as an example as to why the visual appearance of his body should’ve raised questions about death by suicide due to the way in which it was found. Staging could involve the killer placing the glasses back on the face of the victim, placing the body in a position that didn’t support the act of suicide.