Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[ABro]

Which goes back to my point that the killer's plan to make this appear to be double suicide was thrown when Honey was injured.

I think "suicide" was chosen as a method of murder (albeit thwarted) because the murderer was a very obvious suspect in a murder investigation. I discount business adversaries because Honey was targeted too and, I believe, this was someone with a personal hatred for them both.

Sorry but I find your explanation is full of holes. After Honey was beaten it was never going to look like double suicide. The plan was blown. Why would the killer think, gee my suicide plan failed with HOney, but let me give it a second shot with Barry. I’ll stage it as a murder suicide. Plan B.

Did the inexperienced killer lie in wait for Barry, then pounce and strangle him without causing other injuries?

And did the plan include using their belts?

 

[ABro]

Exactly. If this was a murder, what is the point of the staging? Has there ever been a case remotely similar? Wouldn't it have been easier to shoot them both at close range and simply put the gun in Barry's hand? If the plan was always to stage a suicide, why beat Honey so badly that it causes blood to pool up under her?

You guys dismiss the M/S idea, primarily due to the opinion of one man (being paid by the family), yet you ignore the idiocy of this as a murder scene.

I don’t dismiss murder suicide at all. But the police have to be completely incompetent if it was murder suicide. Saunders wasn’t acting at that press conference.

And the murder suicide was staged too. It’s just that you keep ignoring this fact and acting like it would be perfectly normal for Barry to decide his only option was to hang the bodies by the pool.

The man was brilliant. He would know that wouldn’t fool anyone and would, more than anything, arouse suspicions.

Just like there’s never been a double murder like this there’s also not been a double suicide like it.

No matter what scenario the bizarre staging was done for a reason.

 

[ABro]

Well production orders were being filed listing ONLY Honey Sherman as a victim. Even Greenspan mentioned that.

That could just be a matter of reusing the initial form. The old fax cover sheet thing. Laziness with paperwork.

 

[deugirtni]

If their wrists were tied, they not only wouldnt be able to fight back but they would be tugging away at the ligature. Both activities could/would leave to DNA being left everywhere.

IIRC, they were not strangled with the belts but something else.

Andreww, the police are never obligated to announce anything to the public, as you know, until they are ready.

I imagine they had a good idea after the autopsies were completed, before the services.

Having said that, autopsy results are not complete for about 6 weeks due to lab work etc.

Is it possible they were covering ALL bases while awaiting the final reports??

Autopsies are pretty definitive most of the time. Of course, there are exceptions.

It has been reported in MSM (and possibly even by the same author) both ways, as far as the belts having been the actual ligature used to cause death, or not... so this part is not clear, imo.

 

[ldlager]

How do you know no DNA was left?

What I meant was if the killers were pros, they would have taken steps to ensure minimal DNA evidence was left. I don’t know what they actually left

 

[Tortoise]

Sorry but I find your explanation is full of holes. After Honey was beaten it was never going to look like double suicide. “The plan” was blown. Why would the killer think, gee my suicide plan failed with HOney, but let me give it a second shot with Barry. I’ll stage it as a murder suicide.

Did the inexperienced killer lie in wait for Barry, then pounce and strangle him without causing other injuries?

And did “the plan” involve using Barry’s belts?

I don't think it's full of holes - Barry being implicated in Honey's murder if his death was apparently suicide was the only solution in the killer's mind, bearing in mind the probable stress of the night (not being a professional assassin) and wanting to get away from the premises undetected ASAP. It was never going to look like double suicide but the killer could only hope that it would look as if Barry had lost his marbles.

This is complete conjecture but I can imagine Barry being sprung from behind as he got out of his car in the garage, maybe poked in the back and told it was a gun, getting his wrists restrained first and then being frogmarched to the pool, where he saw Honey lying face down already. Ordered or forced to seat himself next to Honey, perhaps belt removed, and then strangled from behind. Not much Barry could have done with arms restrained behind him and being seated on the ground.

Who knows where the second belt came from for Honey. Possibly the killer bought a new one for the purpose, or ransacked Barry's wardrobe.

 

[PostTruth]

Welcome to Ws PostTruth, thanks for the link!

No problem and thank you.

 

[matou]

ABRO what is your working theory on this case? What do you think happened?

 

[flowers In the dustbin]

Here's another clue for you all, the killer was Barry - first thought best thought.

 

[deugirtni]

Exactly. If this was a murder, what is the point of the staging? Has there ever been a case remotely similar? Wouldn't it have been easier to shoot them both at close range and simply put the gun in Barry's hand? If the plan was always to stage a suicide, why beat Honey so badly that it causes blood to pool up under her?

You guys dismiss the M/S idea, primarily due to the opinion of one man (being paid by the family), yet you ignore the idiocy of this as a murder scene.

I don't think anyone ignores the idiocy of the crimescene, however some speculate that it was staged like that to serve some kind of a purpose, such as a message of some sort. I also don't think people dismiss the M/S idea primarily due to the opinion of the PI team. Warmington wrote that he was all ready to publish the story initially, stating it was an 'execution', based on the info he had at hand... until some 'senior officer' source told him they were looking at it differently - apparently because it 'appeared' at that early hour that there was no forced entry and 'no evidence of anybody else in the house' (even though there were multiple people in the house at the very time they were found) - however, he described a report from a person(s) at the scene who said it was an execution.

".. a senior police officer suggested for accuracy that I change my column from “they were executed” to it was “a murder-suicide.”

"I quoted senior police sources saying “at this stage it appears there was no forced entry and no evidence of anybody else in the house,” and “we are not searching for any suspects.”

"This .. in retrospect did not add up."
WARMINGTON: $10 million questions in unsolved slayings of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman

"It was in stark contrast to what the Toronto Sun was told by a witness of the death scene inside the couple’s Old Colony Rd. mansion.

“They both had (belts) wrapped around their necks,” said the source. “It was an execution.”

“I believe they (Shermans) were targeted,” said Gomes, who added it was never her view that it was a murder-suicide.

"Despite the fact that police talked us out of going with the story we had correct on that first night, we decided to approach it with an open mind.

"This is why I kept pushing on this case and, despite what police were saying, kept bringing out every clue we found — most pointing to a double homicide.

"The Shermans were executed — as I should have written six weeks ago."
WARMINGTON: Did cops mislead, bungle or capitulate in Sherman ‘murder’ probe?

 

[deugirtni]

Well production orders were being filed listing ONLY Honey Sherman as a victim. Even Greenspan mentioned that.

As far as I have read, there are production orders and potentially search warrants, which have not been unsealed - therefore, isn't it possible there were also orders and warrants which listed ONLY Barry? Or both? We are not privy to all here.

 

[deugirtni]

Here's another clue for you all, the killer was Barry - first thought best thought.

Hmm, that has a familiar ring to it?

 

[MistyWaters]

Toronto police obtain nine new search warrants in Sherman murder investigation | The Star

“Toronto police detectives probing the murders of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman have obtained nine more search warrants in the last month.

The warrants — police will not reveal what they were seeking or where the warrants were served — were authorized in the four weeks prior to a Sherman family press conference last week that criticized Toronto police for a shoddy investigation and announced a $10 million reward.

The new warrants suggest police may be ramping up their investigation into the pair’s killing.

According to court records obtained by the Star and statements made by Toronto police, detectives have obtained a total of 37 warrants and production orders since the probe began. Warrants allow police to search locations such as a house or business, production orders are for records maintained by banks and cellphone companies.”

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't think anyone ignores the idiocy of the crimescene, however some speculate that it was staged like that to serve some kind of a purpose, such as a message of some sort. I also don't think people dismiss the M/S idea primarily due to the opinion of the PI team. Warmington wrote that he was all ready to publish the story initially, stating it was an 'execution', based on the info he had at hand... until some 'senior officer' source told him they were looking at it differently - apparently because it 'appeared' at that early hour that there was no forced entry and 'no evidence of anybody else in the house' (even though there were multiple people in the house at the very time they were found) - however, he described a report from a person(s) at the scene who said it was an execution.

".. a senior police officer suggested for accuracy that I change my column from “they were executed” to it was “a murder-suicide.”

"I quoted senior police sources saying “at this stage it appears there was no forced entry and no evidence of anybody else in the house,” and “we are not searching for any suspects.”

"This .. in retrospect did not add up."
WARMINGTON: $10 million questions in unsolved slayings of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman

"It was in stark contrast to what the Toronto Sun was told by a witness of the death scene inside the couple’s Old Colony Rd. mansion.

“They both had (belts) wrapped around their necks,” said the source. “It was an execution.”

“I believe they (Shermans) were targeted,” said Gomes, who added it was never her view that it was a murder-suicide.

"Despite the fact that police talked us out of going with the story we had correct on that first night, we decided to approach it with an open mind.

"This is why I kept pushing on this case and, despite what police were saying, kept bringing out every clue we found — most pointing to a double homicide.

"The Shermans were executed — as I should have written six weeks ago."
WARMINGTON: Did cops mislead, bungle or capitulate in Sherman ‘murder’ probe?

I’ve always thought D’Angelo might’ve gotten it right. If LE had strong reason to believe the perp/s were personally associated to either of the Shermans, certainly “the chatter”created in those days thereafter would’ve revealed any potential suspects heavily leaning toward reasons for quickly closing the death file due to S/S or M/S.

BBM
“On a day where they are getting hammered in the media, D’Angelo has tremendous confidence in Toronto Police — and was critical of media and public portraying this as a bungled case.

“The Toronto Police know what they are doing,” said D’Angelo to why investigators let the public believe for 42 days as a suspicious death when sources called it a murder-suicide.

“I believe the cops did that on purpose to create chatter, you know, to get whoever did it to not know what they were thinking.”...”
WARMINGTON: Barry Sherman’s ex-biz partner knew ‘from day one’ couple was murdered

 

[MistyWaters]

One thing I don't understand is why not just dump the bodies in the pool? That would help get rid of any of the killers DNA evidence that was on the bodies. I can only assume either or both of:
1) the killer(s) were professional, and were careful to not leave any or much DNA evidence on the bodies; and/or
2) the hanging of the bodies from the railing was a clear message, and had/has specific significance or meaning to someone close to the Shermans

Although we don’t know about DNA evidence, touch DNA is generally is not adequate in itself to support homicide charges because it’s been proven in the past it’s transferable. Apparently it can be transferred by sitting in a chair or just touching something someone else has touched. And if the suspect admitted to having been in the Sherman house, for example during a real estate open house or a viewing, the presence of DNA or fingerprints in the home could also be explained. LE needs more evidence than that, if they have reason to identify that same person as a strong suspect.

Much like its become common knowledge for criminals to not allow their cellphone to place them at crime scenes, the topic of DNA is no longer a secret amongst only law enforcement. Every true crime show or crime book talks about how it’s used to solve cases.

Just my opinion but I haven’t notice any obvious or direct connection to this being a professional hit whatsoever. Actually the opposite, it appears to have been a revenge killing driven by a compulsive drive to humiliate the victims even after death.

 

[WINDSOR]

TPS are not over worked and under staffed. It’s just about the highest paid police force in NOrth America. The problem is they have highly paid personnel doing jobs that should be done by someone earning half the salary and lots of other organizational problems.

Despite their high salaries, they’ve blown a lot of cases lately. Wayne Millard, Tess Richer, Gay Village serial killer. None of this was due to under resourcing. It was due to incompetence.

But the difference between these cases and the Sherman case is that from day one they knew all eyes were on them in the Sherman case. I’m not at all convinced they blew it although it’s possible they did. Way too many people are buying into the Greenspan spin.

The judge in charge of search warrants has said their investigation is good. That’s worth something IMO.

I lean toward thinking we may see an arrest fairly soon. OTOH I’m prepared to be completely wrong.

I do not believe Wayne Millard was a TPS case, and they caught the Gay Village serial killer, compared to most jurisdictions the TPS has been quite efficient.

 

[hudunit]

if it means anything Kashoggi was reported to have been strangled.

 

[andreww]

I don’t dismiss murder suicide at all. But the police have to be completely incompetent if it was murder suicide. Saunders wasn’t acting at that press conference.

And the murder suicide was staged too. It’s just that you keep ignoring this fact and acting like it would be perfectly normal for Barry to decide his only option was to hang the bodies by the pool.

The man was brilliant. He would know that wouldn’t fool anyone and would, more than anything, arouse suspicions.

Just like there’s never been a double murder like this there’s also not been a double suicide like it.

No matter what scenario the bizarre staging was done for a reason.

Let me ask you this. Hypothetically if you were Barry, and you had accidentally murdered your wife and you didn't want to face prosecution and public humiliation, what would you do? He could run, but even with his money I doubt he'd get far, and I doubt that appealed to him. From what I know of this guy, he enjoyed one thing, working. He'd never be able to do that again, his life was already essentially over. So he can either just kill himself, or he can kill himself and try to save some face by covering up the murder. Why not?

Yes the man was brilliant. So is John Ramsey. Some people just think differently than others. If you take a crime and simply try to make it look like something else, it can be relatively obvious. If you take a crime and make it look like two or three other things, its becomes virtually impossible to figure out.

So basically he may have committed murder/suicide, staged it to appear like a double suicide, but then added some elements that would suggest double murder. The goal may have been to create a situation where police would be torn between double murder or double suicide, never considering what actually happened. These are things a brilliant man would do, I know, I worked with billionaires for much of my life. They simply have a different way of thinking than you and I do.

 

[andreww]

".. a senior police officer suggested for accuracy that I change my column from “they were executed” to it was “a murder-suicide.”

"I quoted senior police sources saying “at this stage it appears there was no forced entry and no evidence of anybody else in the house,” and “we are not searching for any suspects.”

“I believe they (Shermans) were targeted,” said Gomes, who added it was never her view that it was a murder-suicide.

BBM. Its very odd that this crime scene seemed to have fooled everyone but Gomes isn't it? I mean, senior officers believe its murder suicide, the guy thats talking to the press outside the house insinuates its murder suicide. One would assume that cops, as tight knit as they are, talk to each other so this was likely the pervasive feeling. But Gomes never even entertained the idea? I'm not buying that one bit.

 

[gremlingrrl]

I do not believe Wayne Millard was a TPS case...

RSBM

Etobicoke does fall under the TPS (Division 22), and I believe that both the first responding and the subsequent investigators were all with TPS. Of course, the investigation (esp. evidence gathering) did require coordination with forces from other jurisdictions.

Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect