Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*
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Looking at your visual aids parking at the outhouse would have given the killer a good view of any traffic or activity going on around the bend. He would have seen them first before they seen him, and he could have made it seem he was using the outhouse. That trailer we see part of,Culls Trailer was it mentioned if it was unoccupied the night before she was found? Or any night there of before she was found?
Would it have been almost impossible to get around that area at the time with a car? Because of the weather. Would one need a truck or other type of vehicle so not to get stuck?
Even a snowmobile perhaps. Are they used in that area during winter as seen in the photo?
I am thinking he carried her to the spot, that is why her head was facing north and feet south.
Even if her head was facing south and her feet north the way she was laid looks as if she was carried there.
Dedpanman
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The trailer was unoccupied from the time of Christine's disappearance in October to the discovery of her body on the last day of December.
There was a break in at the trailer that year, but I have to check my notes again to say when that was.
Christine's body was most likely dumped in that location sometime in early October - possibly within hours of her abduction. When her body was found in late December, it was a skeleton. Any type of vehicle would have been able to access the property in October.
Snowmobiles would have been active in the area in a normal year - but there was no snow until very late in the year. I'm not sure about specific snowmobile trails. There is an abandoned railway to the east that might have been used for such activities. You'll see the traces of it on Google Earth.
There was a break in at the trailer that year, but I have to check my notes again to say when that was.
Christine's body was most likely dumped in that location sometime in early October - possibly within hours of her abduction. When her body was found in late December, it was a skeleton. Any type of vehicle would have been able to access the property in October.
Snowmobiles would have been active in the area in a normal year - but there was no snow until very late in the year. I'm not sure about specific snowmobile trails. There is an abandoned railway to the east that might have been used for such activities. You'll see the traces of it on Google Earth.
Dedpanman
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Further elaborations by KJessop (verified insider) in another forum. Bold parentheses are mine added for clarification:
It was known he (my father) was in jail, he received an 18 month sentence for misappropriation of funds, remember, my mother and \i were visiting him in jail the day she went missing. Only about 4 people outside the family knew he was in jail, even the volunteer fire dept. thought he was on business in california.
He was friends with the person (JP) I named. He knew my dad was in jail... He could see our house from the co-op. My mother would think nothing of him coming up if we were there, all he would do was ask if we needed feed for the chickens... It was just a horrible day of luck for him.
It was known he (my father) was in jail, he received an 18 month sentence for misappropriation of funds, remember, my mother and \i were visiting him in jail the day she went missing. Only about 4 people outside the family knew he was in jail, even the volunteer fire dept. thought he was on business in california.
He was friends with the person (JP) I named. He knew my dad was in jail... He could see our house from the co-op. My mother would think nothing of him coming up if we were there, all he would do was ask if we needed feed for the chickens... It was just a horrible day of luck for him.
To me, <modsnip> being incarcerated does not seem to be the key point for the crime that was committed. What is being said in post #22 is that many people knew <modsnip> was away, including members of the volunteer fire department which numbered about 12. That number would then increase with casual conversation with spouses, neighbors, friends etc plus the 4 that knew exactly where he was.
There was 3 weeks of<modsnip> being away from home for someone to find the right opportunity.
There was 3 weeks of<modsnip> being away from home for someone to find the right opportunity.
The old thread will be returning soon for your reference. This is a post that is going to be at the end of it and wanted to add it here for your early review.
Hopefully the hatchet can be buried now. I'm sure there is some new and valuable information yet to be gleaned.
The question has been asked since day one, why that day? Sr. said something along the line of "if not that day it would be another."
Many could potentially know Sr. was incarcerated, but seems very few would be aware Christine was left alone that day. So if someone could see the house, that gives a heads up. How could a perp be so sure the family would not just be pulling in at any moment as he was pulling out? Very very risky imo.
If someone were watching and waiting and planning, would not Christine's daily visit to the store be where one would contemplate the act? Not her own home, snoopy neighbors, parent impending return, chance of traffic seeing the vehicle etc? Unless someone knew the family was going to be away that day, this would have to be viewed as an impulsive brazen opportunist act to abduct her from the home.
Luck of the draw? Opportunity just presented itself? Timing accidentally just worked out right? It is a simple explanation but hard to reconcile with everything we previously thought yet. Perhaps Ken will return with additional insights.
I have no reason to believe the doll story to be any different than we are being told. Hopefully we are all Ok with that much now? Dedpanman has been attempting to place all this new information Ken provided into a timeline of events for that day. I think that a good way to begin the new thread. (if Kj is still willing to assist)
The question has been asked since day one, why that day? Sr. said something along the line of "if not that day it would be another."
Many could potentially know Sr. was incarcerated, but seems very few would be aware Christine was left alone that day. So if someone could see the house, that gives a heads up. How could a perp be so sure the family would not just be pulling in at any moment as he was pulling out? Very very risky imo.
If someone were watching and waiting and planning, would not Christine's daily visit to the store be where one would contemplate the act? Not her own home, snoopy neighbors, parent impending return, chance of traffic seeing the vehicle etc? Unless someone knew the family was going to be away that day, this would have to be viewed as an impulsive brazen opportunist act to abduct her from the home.
Luck of the draw? Opportunity just presented itself? Timing accidentally just worked out right? It is a simple explanation but hard to reconcile with everything we previously thought yet. Perhaps Ken will return with additional insights.
I have no reason to believe the doll story to be any different than we are being told. Hopefully we are all Ok with that much now? Dedpanman has been attempting to place all this new information Ken provided into a timeline of events for that day. I think that a good way to begin the new thread. (if Kj is still willing to assist)
Woodland, you say that on one hand, then state the person had to know. The FD believed he was on business in California. Because my father told them that. He never expected to even go to jail, but laid down a story just in case. His co FD were shocked when they found out. They did not even know he had a court date. As I keep repeating, there were 4 people outside the family that knew. My father worked for an international telecom company and had traveled b4. He would never have mentioned anything to them because he was already being seen as a higher member of the community. And would never jeopardize his perceived status in the community. He lied stole and cheated to achieve it, he would never mention even the courtdate because that would blow his illusion. He looked down upon JP, knew JP was not a member of the community. But they were friends. He is the only one in town who knew the truth. He even told fellow coaches on my softball team that he may be going to cali. I and Christine never told anyone because we were ashamed. The only kids with a parent in jail in a town of 500 people.
Remember the cars coming up the driveway, he knew my dad was gone and my mother was working. And counted on a teenage boy leaving her alone. I reported the cars. The story of the babysitter seeing her get calls asking if she was alone knowing my mom was working. He was he only one in town that knew my father was in jail.
<modsnip>
Remember the cars coming up the driveway, he knew my dad was gone and my mother was working. And counted on a teenage boy leaving her alone. I reported the cars. The story of the babysitter seeing her get calls asking if she was alone knowing my mom was working. He was he only one in town that knew my father was in jail.
<modsnip>
Dedpanman
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KJessop? What do you think of the timeline/scenario that was posted back in post#9?
Several things you say here are new to me Ken and help to fill in a whole bunch of background I have never been able to get my head around. I start to get a bigger and better picture. I understand why you believe and are adamant the suspect you speak. I also saw a glimmer of reconcilitaion possible. Glad to have heard that said, hope it carries on in private. After all it is just whoever killed Christine that everyone seeks, no matter whether it be your suspect, W's, Dpm's, mine or anyone elses. None of that matters.
Making the best case for the best suspect to gain the best result could begin here. Filling in and fleshing out Dedpanman's timeline a good start.
Making the best case for the best suspect to gain the best result could begin here. Filling in and fleshing out Dedpanman's timeline a good start.
Hi :+:MrTT:+:;,
Weather, Durham, 1984:
Sept: http://climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/...2003-10-31&Month=9&Year=1984&cmdB1=Go&Day=-16
Oct: http://climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/...82-06-01|2003-10-31&Year=1984&Month=10&Day=01
Nov: http://climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/...003-10-31&Month=11&Year=1984&cmdB1=Go&Day=-16
Dec: http://climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/...003-10-31&Month=12&Year=1984&cmdB1=Go&Day=-16
Not much rain in the week before CJ's abduction.
Not much snowfall till end of December.
Hi KJessop,
Did JP die in 2012, at 82 years of age?
The Horwoods,
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/morin/morin_ch4.pdf
Dark skinned, meaning? native?
meaning? well tanned?
They described the driver as male, dark-skinned, mid-forties, stocky with dark hair and grubby in appearance.
Did JP die in 2012, at 82 years of age?
The Horwoods,
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/morin/morin_ch4.pdf
Dark skinned, meaning? native?
meaning? well tanned?
They described the driver as male, dark-skinned, mid-forties, stocky with dark hair and grubby in appearance.
:+:MrTT:+:
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Thank you for the article. I am wondering about the cemetery worker. Why was it necessary for him to give an alibi to the Leos and have it supported at the time by family members, only to discover later it was a false alibi. He was doing something or was somewhere at the time that he would rather the leos not know about so he established this alibi. But why?........Was it discovered if he was working at the cemetery that day?
She played there quite often it appears. At some point the two must had had a conversation between themselves.
Would it be possible to see a picture showing the cemetery and the distance from the house if it is still standing?
Dedpanman
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The suspect who worked in the cemetery was thoroughly discussed on the first thread (which is back). Begin reading from post #362 on thread 1. The weather data has also been discussed on thread 1.
Try using the SEARCH FORUMS option with keywords and “Jessop” then click POSTS just to see if the topic has been covered to your satisfaction in the posts on thread 1. Just a suggestion of course, but it might allow us to avoid repetition and retreading of old ground. If you feel we’ve missed something regarding an issue, then by all means bring it to our attention. I hope this doesn't sound... snippy or bossy. If it does - my apologies. Again - just a suggestion on my part.
Try using the SEARCH FORUMS option with keywords and “Jessop” then click POSTS just to see if the topic has been covered to your satisfaction in the posts on thread 1. Just a suggestion of course, but it might allow us to avoid repetition and retreading of old ground. If you feel we’ve missed something regarding an issue, then by all means bring it to our attention. I hope this doesn't sound... snippy or bossy. If it does - my apologies. Again - just a suggestion on my part.
:+:MrTT:+:
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Yes thank you, no hard feelings at all. I am glad the thread is back, and I am reading from 362 on and right now i am reading about the red chips?
Not sure what we mean by chips? Have not read any farther, just wanted to ask if we were talking about circle red chips, about the size of a penny or less. Made of plastic? ILL be careful and read as much as i can before i ask a question in case it has been answered somewhere on in the thread.
Thank you again for your answer and advise. If they are, I believe at the time they were sold in plastic bags as a novelty item, one color or a mixture of colors.
"the night Christine's body was found, Queensville was dumped on with 9 inches of snow and a severe storm" I'll assume Sunderland was dumped on by the same storm seems likely (?).
(Sorry should have cited the exact post a later post adds that her remains were cleared from the site before the storm but I am assuming this storm was forecast).
Not to cast aspersion or carelessly add to the list of suspects but the date Christine was found is interesting and in particular the fact that she was found the day before snow would have covered her remains is interesting. From what I have read on the first thread about no debris being on the remains and those elements however much they conflict in details that seem to suggest she was displayed suggests the possibility that the perp or perps 'tended' the remains and were more or less earnestly awaiting discovery. There are no end of horrible crimes where this seems to be a chief element of the miscreant's delight and that seems to be the case here. And this would fit with the later discovery of the small pile (cairn?) of bones on the site possibly placed there by the perpetrator. There is the possibility that the perp has an almost religious veneration for the site I realize I have said this before but am now fitting it in with the above. There is the possibility that the perp could not bear to have her covered, buried, she needed to be visible displayed they had thought that long before this she would be found, the waiting is killing them and now the end of the year approaches. It is too much.
I don't recall anyone suggesting to the farmer that he check out the area that day but someone could easily have "baited" the site with something a dog would find attractive - and investigating the "farmer" would find the skeletal remains (this obviously just an idea). This is if we absolve the "farmer" from any attention and I am not certain how that happened - I am assuming that he was simply interviewed by LE and cleared of any attention almost from the get-go (?).
The "farmer" who discovered her is he really a farmer? Is there any reason why LE thinking that he is not involved would fudge his identity slightly? Having a child along of course really makes the find seem to be happen-chance since anyone normal would want to shield their child from this. Yet I don't have the impression that is what happened. Also did DPN have a quote from Makin on one of his maps quoting the farmer as saying "it was stupid to leave her near the trailer" something to that effect or am I confused? If not confused to whom was it said?
(Sorry should have cited the exact post a later post adds that her remains were cleared from the site before the storm but I am assuming this storm was forecast).
Not to cast aspersion or carelessly add to the list of suspects but the date Christine was found is interesting and in particular the fact that she was found the day before snow would have covered her remains is interesting. From what I have read on the first thread about no debris being on the remains and those elements however much they conflict in details that seem to suggest she was displayed suggests the possibility that the perp or perps 'tended' the remains and were more or less earnestly awaiting discovery. There are no end of horrible crimes where this seems to be a chief element of the miscreant's delight and that seems to be the case here. And this would fit with the later discovery of the small pile (cairn?) of bones on the site possibly placed there by the perpetrator. There is the possibility that the perp has an almost religious veneration for the site I realize I have said this before but am now fitting it in with the above. There is the possibility that the perp could not bear to have her covered, buried, she needed to be visible displayed they had thought that long before this she would be found, the waiting is killing them and now the end of the year approaches. It is too much.
I don't recall anyone suggesting to the farmer that he check out the area that day but someone could easily have "baited" the site with something a dog would find attractive - and investigating the "farmer" would find the skeletal remains (this obviously just an idea). This is if we absolve the "farmer" from any attention and I am not certain how that happened - I am assuming that he was simply interviewed by LE and cleared of any attention almost from the get-go (?).
The "farmer" who discovered her is he really a farmer? Is there any reason why LE thinking that he is not involved would fudge his identity slightly? Having a child along of course really makes the find seem to be happen-chance since anyone normal would want to shield their child from this. Yet I don't have the impression that is what happened. Also did DPN have a quote from Makin on one of his maps quoting the farmer as saying "it was stupid to leave her near the trailer" something to that effect or am I confused? If not confused to whom was it said?
1. I would be interested to know from anyone whether the H.'s sighting of the Buick conflicts with the various suspects including JP. What is remarkable about the Horwood sighting is not that they saw a man fighting with a child holding it down but that they actually followed the car in a town of 500 that is something very remarkable on any day let alone at the exact time more or less that a child is taken and killed. Defies odds unless they are lying outright which of course did happen in this case elsewhere. I give the Horwoods sighting very high credence.
Did any of the suspects named here have a blue Buick or a car that could be mistaken for one should that not be possible to ascertain still?
2. Swarthy, 40s, if we were looking for a close to pure chance drive by abduction OR someone who was in a network of some sort that "named" Christine as gullible/abusable then that description fits D.M. Howe in the Sharin Keenan case. That is the exact description "swarthy" of him in the Jan Sibelius park Toronto and the right age, strange. Dishevelled etc. doesn't fit but if he was living rough following the events of 1983 then possible.
Yes I realize there are better MUCH closer suspects on the other hand he, whoever he is exactly I have some doubts there, did kill a child in January 1983 whereas with all other suspects we have the reality that they apparently didn't even though it might seem likely that they would. I know in that case people say many things with assurance like Howe left the province could not have stayed close none of that is really known for sure IMO. As someone said on that thread he was a "slippery eel" a shape-shifter. DNA surely doesn't match or we would know (?) but given the abuse meted out to CJ of which we possibly only know a bit about that is less crucial than usual............
Is it possible that cause of death for CJ was strangulation or is that impossible? I understand the other terrible injuries.
Did any of the suspects named here have a blue Buick or a car that could be mistaken for one should that not be possible to ascertain still?
2. Swarthy, 40s, if we were looking for a close to pure chance drive by abduction OR someone who was in a network of some sort that "named" Christine as gullible/abusable then that description fits D.M. Howe in the Sharin Keenan case. That is the exact description "swarthy" of him in the Jan Sibelius park Toronto and the right age, strange. Dishevelled etc. doesn't fit but if he was living rough following the events of 1983 then possible.
Yes I realize there are better MUCH closer suspects on the other hand he, whoever he is exactly I have some doubts there, did kill a child in January 1983 whereas with all other suspects we have the reality that they apparently didn't even though it might seem likely that they would. I know in that case people say many things with assurance like Howe left the province could not have stayed close none of that is really known for sure IMO. As someone said on that thread he was a "slippery eel" a shape-shifter. DNA surely doesn't match or we would know (?) but given the abuse meted out to CJ of which we possibly only know a bit about that is less crucial than usual............
Is it possible that cause of death for CJ was strangulation or is that impossible? I understand the other terrible injuries.
bessie
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Hi, :+:MrTT:+: I copied over a couple of dedpanman's posts from the first thread which contain maps. Posts fall in chronological order, so you will find them near the beginning of this thread. Post dates were October 12, I believe.
Hope that helps you out.
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